How will you change Starfinder in your home games?


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Distant Scholar wrote:
Zaister wrote:
[T]he player version will always win against the GM version, because he can take twice as much damage. Not even considering resolve points.

A quick look at the enemies available to me gives them about 11-15 hit points per CR (except CR <= 1, which has 18-20 per CR). Characters get 10-14+Con modifier total hit points + stamina points per level, plus a few extra at first level.

Is this a big difference?

Don't know the numbers for Stamina but that seems to swerve things.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Zaister wrote:

As I said, it's not really the monster rules that bother me, although I'm not too happy with then either. But monsters have always been mostly on their own, ruleswise.

What I don't like is that characters follow different rules depending on who plays them. A CR 5 soldier played by a player is something entirely different from a CR 5 soldier player by the GM, and the player version will always win against the GM version, because he can take twice as much damage. Not even considering resolve points.

Are you concerned about GMPCs or NPCs?

NPCs are the kinds of characters you only use in one encounter as obstacles for the PCs to overcome.

You can still build out your GMPCs if that is something you enjoy doing. You may want to tweak their stats depending on how you prefer combat to run.


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True. If you're just making a redshirt there's no point in giving them much. If you're making the main antagonist just build them as you would a character. It's basically the same as npc classes.

Scarab Sages

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Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Steven "Troll" O'Neal wrote:
Zaister wrote:

We were talking about rules for NPCs, not monsters. Alien Archive is a monster book, not an NPC book.

It seems NPCs are geven a class and a CR and then are assigned some class features in a seemingly arbitrary fashion. What makes matters worse is that not even all of the assigned abilities are listed in the new abbreviated statblock.

I really don't get how this is supposed to be an improvement over simpy using class levels. I wonder why was this done? What is gained by this change?

This is really dampening my enthusiasm for this game. :(

Arguably, given the design principle of having as many "monsters" able to be used as PC races as possible, Alien Archive is a bestiary, player companion, and npc codex rolled into one. However, there is nothing stopping you from building an npc using the same method as a pc.

Will that skew encounters?

Instead of human with a certain set of stats and pick and chosen abilities from a class at a certain CR you would have a human with a enough levels in the class to have those abilities and stats, which might give them more abilities. If my understanding of the system is correct.

Abilities will be roughly the same. Where there will be divergence is the npc built using pc rules will likely have a higher AC and lower to hit bonus than the one build using the monster rules. This will make combats take longer, and will also take longer to build the character.


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Yeah, setting monsters aside, you can create all the NPCs/GMPCs you want using the standard PC creation rules so that's not a problem. The only issue I can see is the NPCs in Paizo published adventures not being full PC statblocks.

But for me NPCs in Pathfinder itself are meant to be underpowered compared to PCs as their WBL is much much lower. So I'm not unhappy about Starfinder Paizo NPCs being different from PCs and faster to create and simpler to read.

I think a good approach would be to stick to the Paizo simplified NPC statblock for the NPCs and if they get massacred by the PCs than, well and good, but if the NPCs survive the PCs and turn into companions/followers/recurring villians then go through the effort of building them as full PCs.

Why go through the trouble of convering a Paizo NPC into a full statblock if it just gets one shotted by a bad initiative roll and high rolls by the players?


Azih wrote:

Yeah, setting monsters aside, you can create all the NPCs/GMPCs you want using the standard PC creation rules so that's not a problem. The only issue I can see is the NPCs in Paizo published adventures not being full PC statblocks.

But for me NPCs in Pathfinder itself are meant to be underpowered compared to PCs as their WBL is much much lower. So I'm not unhappy about Starfinder Paizo NPCs being different from PCs and faster to create and simpler to read.

I think a good approach would be to stick to the Paizo simplified NPC statblock for the NPCs and if they get massacred by the PCs than, well and good, but if the NPCs survive the PCs and turn into companions/followers/recurring villians then go through the effort of building them as full PCs.

Why go through the trouble of convering a Paizo NPC into a full statblock if it just gets one shotted by a bad initiative roll and high rolls by the players?

You don't even need to build them as full PCs, just give them the difference in stats and abilities between their original CR and whatever new CR you want to give them. It should take no more time than advancing a PC by a single level, even if you massively increase the NPCs CR.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I think I will tweak the magic system to sync with current Golarion standards. It doesn't make sense to me personally that magic would have weakened or wizards vanish when planets and locations in the setting are/were known for having such individuals. It is fine to be rare (like Azlanti as a race) but it should still be there.


Considering game balance I think that might not be the best idea
I would at least throughly read everything new about magic


Rouge Genius book "Starfarer's Companion" Has Starfinder Wizards and Clerics if you are looking to bring back full casters... or rather will have, as it comes out the 17th.


I'll be changing technomancers to be prepared casters, replacing drift, using a custom setting, and using old-style stats for monsters.


Ioun wrote:
I think I will tweak the magic system to sync with current Golarion standards. It doesn't make sense to me personally that magic would have weakened or wizards vanish when planets and locations in the setting are/were known for having such individuals. It is fine to be rare (like Azlanti as a race) but it should still be there.

I would create a new class with full spellcasting instead. The technomancer and mystic probably have more abilities/class features to make up for only 6th level casting.


Azih wrote:
But for me NPCs in Pathfinder itself are meant to be underpowered compared to PCs as their WBL is much much lower.

Yeah, one time I was GMing for a solo character and he decided to attack the guards. He killed 3 4th level guards and 1 7th level captain in 3 rounds, while taking no damage, as a 4th level character. He was a half-orc rogue if you're wondering.

Totally messed up my entire planned adventure.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm going to play it by the book, because it's silly to start changing things before you understand how the system plays in practice. Theorycrafting only gets you so far, and I'd hate to accidentally undo something important but nonobvious that the design team did.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

My plan is to tell my players to use the Starfinder Core Rulebook as inspiration for their backgrounds. However, any bits of background info that are not referenced or implied in the backstory of at least one PC will be subject to change as I see fit. That method leaves me free to be creative but does not require me to write up a detailed campaign guide for the players before they build their characters.


I've basically come to the conclusion that for my home games, I'm going to have to buff the Theme's ability score bonus from +1 to +2.

Mostly because the size of the original bonus refuses to be meaningful after a certain point.

Dark Archive

mcbraggart wrote:
I'm going to mod in the old TSR Star Frontiers races. I love the Dralasites and my group is older so they will get the references.

Same, but a bit farther. In fact tge plan is to run a modifies versiom of ctash on volturnus and volturnus planet of mystery as a staring point.

Dark Archive

Drovnar Strongbrew wrote:

This may at 1st glance sound like a negative comment but it's not really. More of a generation issue perhaps. Back in the day running a game was a creative outlet, stories were written, maps were drawn, minis were painted & character development was worked out with the DM. Now prefix adventures are hastily read, low quality prepainted plastic minis are purchased in bulk & power gamers can dig through a rediculous number of options till they select for themselves the perfect game breaking combo.

What would be the point of reskinning Starfinder if the overwhelming majority of lazy & unimaginative players AND GMs want to be spoon fed their setting by Paizo? Put up your lonely flyer advertising your Home brew game at a Convention or FLGS Game night and you'll be Lucky to get a few divergent souls. Yet the place will be filled to bursting with scores of loud Starfinder Society tables. Paizo wove the setting into the Core Rulebook from the start and presented that's how Starfinder is played...& so 99.8% of the fan boy & fan girl culture follows suit. Observe closely & see if this is what comes to pass.

It might well be a generation thing. Older school gamer i would rather tinker and tell a story that i eant rather then the story paizo wants. It doesnt matter what everyone else wants. Only what i and the group does.


I want to do something more meaningful with abilities that only give someone a +1 or a +2 to some skill, because I'm pretty sure at a certain point, those kind of bonuses mean nothing.


Dividing UPBs into Components and Chems, so you can't turn transistors into bread.


I have never played Pathfinder, so I am totally unfamiliar with that setting; however, what I've read of the Starfinder setting I find very interesting. For me, I think I'll likely be diverging in tone rather than other elements - I want something gonzo and a bit over-the-top.


I think I'm going to wait to see what third party material is going to do before I make any changes like house rules or adding classes. Things that I'm eyeing though is magic. With two classes and a consolidated spell list magic seems rather limited, plus I was never fully satisfied with how magic in D&D worked, so I may drag psionics or Spheres of Power into this if it won't break the game. I also feel like we're missing a cyborg class and d a biocrafter. Otherwise most of the crunch changes are in line with what I did to run Pathfinder in space so I can't think of anything I would change based on what I've read so far

Fluff-wise I'm definitely adding in races and setting information from the sci-fi Pathfinder material I've collected. I'm going to use Starfinder for Gonzo sci-fantasy so I want to get weird with it and leave more low key stuff to Traveller and Savage Worlds.


Malwing wrote:

I think I'm going to wait to see what third party material is going to do before I make any changes like house rules or adding classes. Things that I'm eyeing though is magic. With two classes and a consolidated spell list magic seems rather limited, plus I was never fully satisfied with how magic in D&D worked, so I may drag psionics or Spheres of Power into this if it won't break the game. I also feel like we're missing a cyborg class and d a biocrafter. Otherwise most of the crunch changes are in line with what I did to run Pathfinder in space so I can't think of anything I would change based on what I've read so far

Fluff-wise I'm definitely adding in races and setting information from the sci-fi Pathfinder material I've collected. I'm going to use Starfinder for Gonzo sci-fantasy so I want to get weird with it and leave more low key stuff to Traveller and Savage Worlds.

Cybernetics sounds like its a thing that all character classes can use.


Ventnor wrote:
Malwing wrote:

I think I'm going to wait to see what third party material is going to do before I make any changes like house rules or adding classes. Things that I'm eyeing though is magic. With two classes and a consolidated spell list magic seems rather limited, plus I was never fully satisfied with how magic in D&D worked, so I may drag psionics or Spheres of Power into this if it won't break the game. I also feel like we're missing a cyborg class and d a biocrafter. Otherwise most of the crunch changes are in line with what I did to run Pathfinder in space so I can't think of anything I would change based on what I've read so far

Fluff-wise I'm definitely adding in races and setting information from the sci-fi Pathfinder material I've collected. I'm going to use Starfinder for Gonzo sci-fantasy so I want to get weird with it and leave more low key stuff to Traveller and Savage Worlds.

Cybernetics sounds like its a thing that all character classes can use.

So is any technology but we have mechanics and technomancers.


Luna Protege wrote:

I've basically come to the conclusion that for my home games, I'm going to have to buff the Theme's ability score bonus from +1 to +2.

Mostly because the size of the original bonus refuses to be meaningful after a certain point.

That's deliberate, so that you don't feel forced into a particular theme in order to min/max your build.

If you want to change it, I would suggest changing the ability score bonus to +0.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

In our read-throughs so far, the equipment leveling has been quite unpopular. So we'll probably have a "a gun is a gun" conversion toward standard D20 equipment stats, but with options for masterwork from there.


Lorgan_Hegener wrote:
In our read-throughs so far, the equipment leveling has been quite unpopular. So we'll probably have a "a gun is a gun" conversion toward standard D20 equipment stats, but with options for masterwork from there.

Yeah, I'm probably going to be scrapping nearly the entire equipment chapter, and replacing it with items lifted out of D20 Modern, D20 Future, and D20 Future Tech.

Probably even steal the wealth system, given how well it works for setting where credit cards exist. Probably go with PL 6 as the base, but have PL 7 gear be available at increased cost.

Probably will keep the Pathfinder Power armor system, but scrap item levels. I mean, why is a 5d6 Frag Grenade a 10th level item, when you have your Technomancer throwing 9d6 fireballs at level 7?


I'll fix the Starship DCs because JESUS CHRIST. I'll also expand the weapon variety, especially amongst special weapons.


Matsci wrote:
Lorgan_Hegener wrote:
In our read-throughs so far, the equipment leveling has been quite unpopular. So we'll probably have a "a gun is a gun" conversion toward standard D20 equipment stats, but with options for masterwork from there.

Yeah, I'm probably going to be scrapping nearly the entire equipment chapter, and replacing it with items lifted out of D20 Modern, D20 Future, and D20 Future Tech.

Probably even steal the wealth system, given how well it works for setting where credit cards exist. Probably go with PL 6 as the base, but have PL 7 gear be available at increased cost.

Probably will keep the Pathfinder Power armor system, but scrap item levels. I mean, why is a 5d6 Frag Grenade a 10th level item, when you have your Technomancer throwing 9d6 fireballs at level 7?

Largely because 3rd level spells are a limited daily resource, and pricing 5d6 grenades as a 10th level item prevents spamming every room with grenades from the entire party.

Personally though, I'm considering scrapping the entire economy and turning damage into a skill based progression based on weapon category and character level. I'm not 100% positive as I don't have the rules, but everything I've heard sounds awful. An absurdist combination of gamist abstractions, must X tall to ride, and logarithmic inflation that simply doesn't function in any reasonable way, or fit the genre (where people either keep their starter gun, have to scavenge whatever works, are assigned standard issue, or craft/inherit something meaningful, all of which are spit on by this system)

And high level DCs sound like the math is just an giant error.


Earlier today I thought about how one could mashup Starfinder in the same universe as Warhammer 40K.

First we say that time formerly passed at different rates around Golarion/Pact World space relative to Earth/Milk Spiral space. This was caused by the proximity of the Rough Beast, so time passes more slowly. (up to 1/25 ratio in the Golarion star system and surrounding light-years). If anyone crossed over from Golarion in 4717 A.R. they would discover Earth in the present year of 2017 A.D.

Whereas the events of Reign of Winter might have happened only 4 Earth years ago by Golarion subjective time, 100 years have passed on Earth since then (the Great War is long over and it's closer to 2022 A.D. than 1922).

While dismissed as tall tales in its time, archaeologists have since uncovered Pathfinder Society records describing the personal and official records of a second expedition to Baba Yaga's homeworld describing a planet filled with strange technologies and a xenophobic organization called "The Foundation" which quarantined and interned the travelers for several years, during which time many experiments were performed on them and their equipment, variously referred to with strange terminology such as "SCPs", "euclids", and "keters".

Sometime in the 63th century A.R., an attempt was made to try to correct the time flow problem for Golarion and its home galaxy. The source of the time flow problem was narrowed down to Rovagug's Cage, and steps were taken to experiment with different methodologies until the least destructive one was isolated.

The experiment would last for approximately 300 years. The events of the Gap and its experiments would have an effect throughout the Laniakea Galactic Supercluster, including both the Home Galaxy and Milk Spiral. In the end, the time problem on and around Golarion and its local spacetime was "fixed", or reintegrated with the rest of the universe, but to make this a permanent solution, Golarion had to disappear. Unfortunately it also created lots of weirdness with the individual memories of people who were "stuck in slow time" as well as just about anything and everything that got written down, taped, saved on magnetic platters or data crystals, etc. etc. Those memories (wetware and otherwise) were caused to cease to exist as a result of the time correction.

The events of The Gap would also create problems with the Drift, at least for the worlds of the Milk Spiral. Knowledge of the Drift was lost to the Milk Spiral for several millennia. After it was rediscovered as The Warp, its corrupting influences would eventually overwhelm many and turn them into minions of the nascent Chaos Gods who trouble that galaxy.

Like the Starstone, the Emperor of Man serves as a galactic navigational beacon for his home galaxy. Today, the Imperium is still virtually unknown to the Pact Worlds, although sporadic reports of "weird and terrible things hiding in the Drift" have been made by explorers who have succeeded in crossing the intergalactic vastness between the Pact Galaxy and the Milk Spiral, and survived to return to the Pact galaxy.


If I get to running a Starfinder game (Two PF gestalt games take quite a while to build encounters for), besides mechanical fixes (I'll rely on my favorite numbercrunchers for it mostly), I'll probably add some 40k flavor for it too. Usage of Drift travel doesn't only cause elements of the Outer Planes to be lost to the Gap, it also causes them to slowly manifest on the Material Plane, the Abyss and the Maelstrom being the most prone to events of the kind happening.
Then I'll put the Space Hellknights under the service of the Azlanti Empire. And make the PCs be from the varied orders.
*Hails the Twin Emperors of Mankind*


carmachu wrote:
Drovnar Strongbrew wrote:

This may at 1st glance sound like a negative comment but it's not really. More of a generation issue perhaps. Back in the day running a game was a creative outlet, stories were written, maps were drawn, minis were painted & character development was worked out with the DM. Now prefix adventures are hastily read, low quality prepainted plastic minis are purchased in bulk & power gamers can dig through a rediculous number of options till they select for themselves the perfect game breaking combo.

What would be the point of reskinning Starfinder if the overwhelming majority of lazy & unimaginative players AND GMs want to be spoon fed their setting by Paizo? Put up your lonely flyer advertising your Home brew game at a Convention or FLGS Game night and you'll be Lucky to get a few divergent souls. Yet the place will be filled to bursting with scores of loud Starfinder Society tables. Paizo wove the setting into the Core Rulebook from the start and presented that's how Starfinder is played...& so 99.8% of the fan boy & fan girl culture follows suit. Observe closely & see if this is what comes to pass.

It might well be a generation thing. Older school gamer i would rather tinker and tell a story that i eant rather then the story paizo wants. It doesnt matter what everyone else wants. Only what i and the group does.

Don't think it's a generation thing. I'm 41, and I used to do all those things Drovnar mentioned, 20-25 years ago.

Then I grew up, got a job, got a family, got family things to do, and no longer can/want to spend that much time doing it. So I take the APs as a basis, and then tinker with them, which give me much less trouble.


Having to re-retcon the entire system of magic. It's explicitly still the same setting as Pathfinder, just +X thousand years or so, so why is casting so immensely different? Where did all of the wizards, clerics, druids, shaman, witches and psychics go? Why did people forget how to cast seventh through ninth level spells? It's not like people didn't survive through the Gap, there are tons of beings that are still alive during PF time that are around during SF time. So yeah, I'll be making magic require verbal and somatic components again, or emotion/thought components for psychic magic, because I don't want the only way to keep a caster from casting to be an anti-magic field or unconsciousness, I'll be bringing back defensive casting because woo, step up and strike makes it impossible for a caster to do anything.

I'll have to bring back CMB and CMD, because jesus the current idea is bad. All maneuvers are just a normal attack roll, but to land them is KAC+8? Pinning someone doesn't require grappling first, just a higher check? So as soon as a grapple based tentacle monster like a kraken or black magga is out, it's going to nearly insta-win fights because on it's first round it can pin everyone within reach thanks to the insane bonuses it'll have? Ooh, and then there's the fact that combat maneuvers have no size bonuses or penalties OR restrictions, so if you take something the size of, say, a common bumblebee, and stack grapple bonuses, you can very easily not just grapple a dinosaur, you can pin it on your first round of combat and laugh as it struggles weakly against your 1 inch long frame.

Oh and then there's crits. Yeah... let's make lvls 1-3 even more dangerous for an enemy to get a random nat 20, oops you're dead because it's auto-crit as there's no confirmation roll. A 5% chance to just die at low lvls is a horrible idea.

Have to put free actions back into the game. Srsly, you can't just stop telling your muscles to flex to keep standing if you shoot your gun twice because dropping prone is a swift action and you can't do those in a full action anymore. That's ridiculous.

Not sure what I'm going to do about equipment and the removal of the iterative yet. I actually like the concept, but the in-universe logic of running into someone with a rich dad who buys a lvl 20 gun at lvl 1 is... not logic. That would happen, but in here the GM is supposed to say it doesn't. There's no in-universe reason why though. Doing something like upgrading guns and such from ilvl 1 to 20 makes more sense to me (which is not allowed in the base rules, you just have to buy a new gun while basically throwing your old one away because you can't sell it for anything more than 10% of it's cost).

Ships'll have to be redone, they're basically impossible to fly once you hit lvl 11+.

Nausea wasn't fixed, which seems a missed opportunity, so I have to use my homerule there.

Poisons and diseases use the unchained variants, which are neat but have some rather glaring issues still. Addiction can literally kill you in just 5 days, which seems... wrong. Drugs are still guaranteed to move you down a poison track, which is just not realistic as there are drugs that do not in fact poison you that way, especially not requiring a full day of bed rest to fix. If a poison or disease reaches it's end state, it requires miracle or wish to cure, for one that doesn't kill you. Which hilariously makes it more effective to use non-lethal poisons than lethal ones.

Use Magic Device, which is easily one of the most powerful skills in the game with all of it's restrictions, is now just auto-success. Yeah... brilliant design choice there.

The legacy section for converting PF stuff to SF stuff is laughable. Stuff that targets Touch AC becomes EAC, and a monster's full AC turns into it's KAC, but it's full AC minus 1 becomes it's EAC. So everyone that relies on hitting touch AC is now basically guaranteed to auto-miss. Monster CR is used for it's HD for things like HD based spells, which amusingly strengthens the spells considerably as HD is almost always higher than CR. Monsters will effectively lose massive amounts of CMD at higher levels too.

The small bit on monsters in the GM section is... bad. It reads as though monsters are built just to be exp fodder as they cut out information that isn't directly related to battle. Instead of stats, they just have modifiers, which is annoying as it means you have to convert them back if your players use any kind of ability damage or drain. If they're casters, they don't show their lowest lvl spells (the one example has 4th, 5th, and 6th lvl, but nothing else). Their skills don't match their Int modifier, which I'm guessing means they only list skills that could have uses in combat or something. Feats that affect numbers, such as weapon focus, aren't listed at all because they're factored into the stats, which is going to make reverse engineering a monster a pain in the butt and constant questions of 'why does this monster have so few feats?' Basing monster equipment and such on CR instead of HD is going to run into issues on CR 21 or higher as using gear under it's lvl is supposed to reduce it's CR, and gear with ilvls higher than 20 doesn't exist.

(Also I'm trying to figure out how the Space Goblin Monark has a bite attack AND a breath weapon when it's wearing a full glass helmet...)

I'll probably find more things later, which is... quite disheartening.


Myrryr wrote:
Oh and then there's crits. Yeah... let's make lvls 1-3 even more dangerous for an enemy to get a random nat 20, oops you're dead because it's auto-crit as there's no confirmation roll. A 5% chance to just die at low lvls is a horrible idea.

I'll just point out that there is a sort of confirmation, in that if the Nat 20 is the only reason they hit (their modifiers weren't high enough) then it is an auto hit, not a crit.

Also with the Stamina system and the way Crits work (only max damage on x2, meaning it's the same as if your got shot twice) I don't see instal-kills occurring early game.


@Myrryr

So you basically don't want to play Starfinder, you want to play Pathfinder in space?

Most of the system changes you are going to change are all things I'm excited to see how they play. Different game, and I'm assuming different assumptions.


Lord Mhoram wrote:

@Myrryr

So you basically don't want to play Starfinder, you want to play Pathfinder in space?

Most of the system changes you are going to change are all things I'm excited to see how they play. Different game, and I'm assuming different assumptions.

Not entirely inaccurate. Considering that it's still the same setting, I'm not sure why there was such a big change. Especially with magic. If you're going to change how the fundamental world works, use a different world. It pissed me off about DnD, and it did the same here. Why is it so hard to just make a new setting instead of retconning everything?


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Myrryr wrote:
Lord Mhoram wrote:

@Myrryr

So you basically don't want to play Starfinder, you want to play Pathfinder in space?

Most of the system changes you are going to change are all things I'm excited to see how they play. Different game, and I'm assuming different assumptions.

Not entirely inaccurate. Considering that it's still the same setting, I'm not sure why there was such a big change. Especially with magic. If you're going to change how the fundamental world works, use a different world. It pissed me off about DnD, and it did the same here. Why is it so hard to just make a new setting instead of retconning everything?

I didn't look at it as a retcon - I always sort of saw it as "inspired by Pathfinder setting" - A lot of setting stuff is the same, just SF, but the mechanics are different. Sort of like Final Fantasy games that can have a LOT in common with each other, but be their own thing - though Starfinder Setting and Pathfinder Setting are closer than FF games. Magic Existed, Magic exists, but it's different. I can live with that.

To be honest I love alternate universes and "Elsewords" and what ifs and alternate history - so that change doesn't bother me.


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Upon seeing the size of Absalom Station and Idari I'm just gonna add a 0 to the end of their sizes. A 5 mile wide space station strikes me as a bit small for what it is, but a 50 mile wide station? That's more like a nation in space.


Lord Mhoram wrote:
Myrryr wrote:
Lord Mhoram wrote:

@Myrryr

So you basically don't want to play Starfinder, you want to play Pathfinder in space?

Most of the system changes you are going to change are all things I'm excited to see how they play. Different game, and I'm assuming different assumptions.

Not entirely inaccurate. Considering that it's still the same setting, I'm not sure why there was such a big change. Especially with magic. If you're going to change how the fundamental world works, use a different world. It pissed me off about DnD, and it did the same here. Why is it so hard to just make a new setting instead of retconning everything?

I didn't look at it as a retcon - I always sort of saw it as "inspired by Pathfinder setting" - A lot of setting stuff is the same, just SF, but the mechanics are different. Sort of like Final Fantasy games that can have a LOT in common with each other, but be their own thing - though Starfinder Setting and Pathfinder Setting are closer than FF games. Magic Existed, Magic exists, but it's different. I can live with that.

To be honest I love alternate universes and "Elsewords" and what ifs and alternate history - so that change doesn't bother me.

See, I'd be a bit more ok with that. But... they're explicitly not. They are the same setting. Same gods. Hell, Casandalee is explicitly the result of the Iron Gods campaign.

If they said it was different I'd be much more ok with it.


Myrryr wrote:
Lord Mhoram wrote:
Myrryr wrote:
Lord Mhoram wrote:

@Myrryr

So you basically don't want to play Starfinder, you want to play Pathfinder in space?

Most of the system changes you are going to change are all things I'm excited to see how they play. Different game, and I'm assuming different assumptions.

Not entirely inaccurate. Considering that it's still the same setting, I'm not sure why there was such a big change. Especially with magic. If you're going to change how the fundamental world works, use a different world. It pissed me off about DnD, and it did the same here. Why is it so hard to just make a new setting instead of retconning everything?

I didn't look at it as a retcon - I always sort of saw it as "inspired by Pathfinder setting" - A lot of setting stuff is the same, just SF, but the mechanics are different. Sort of like Final Fantasy games that can have a LOT in common with each other, but be their own thing - though Starfinder Setting and Pathfinder Setting are closer than FF games. Magic Existed, Magic exists, but it's different. I can live with that.

To be honest I love alternate universes and "Elsewords" and what ifs and alternate history - so that change doesn't bother me.

See, I'd be a bit more ok with that. But... they're explicitly not. They are the same setting. Same gods. Hell, Casandalee is explicitly the result of the Iron Gods campaign.

If they said it was different I'd be much more ok with it.

That makes sense.

I'm good with Headcannon, so again, I can live with it. Hope you are able to find a way to enjoy the game on your terms. :)


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technarken wrote:
Upon seeing the size of Absalom Station and Idari I'm just gonna add a 0 to the end of their sizes. A 5 mile wide space station strikes me as a bit small for what it is, but a 50 mile wide station? That's more like a nation in space.

I thought about this as I read about Absolom Station in the new AP book.

It's 5 miles wide on it's planar section, and it looks fairly even for it's length. That gives it about 25 square miles the the planar section of the station. Or about the same size as Manhattan.

Manhattan's population is 1.6 mil. Absolom Station has 2.1 mil.

But the station also looks like it's as tall as it is wide (but much more narrow on the non-planar section, called the Spike). It starts at maybe 1/4-1/2 as wide, and narrows down to maybe 1/10 as wide. So we're looking at a good amount of available space in the entire volume of the station - enough to fit 2.1 million people with at most the same (but probably better) population density as Manhattan. For a space station, that seems pretty reasonable. It also doesn't include the Armada surrounding the station.

Your fix will make it bigger than Delaware (or half the size of Connecticut) before we even take into consideration the depth. That is absolutely freaking huge.

(Also, about half the size of the Death Star, which is about 100 miles across)


bookrat wrote:
technarken wrote:
Upon seeing the size of Absalom Station and Idari I'm just gonna add a 0 to the end of their sizes. A 5 mile wide space station strikes me as a bit small for what it is, but a 50 mile wide station? That's more like a nation in space.

I thought about this as I read about Absolom Station in the new AP book.

It's 5 miles wide on it's planar section, and it looks fairly even for it's length. That gives it about 25 square miles the the planar section of the station. Or about the same size as Manhattan.

Manhattan's population is 1.6 mil. Absolom Station has 2.1 mil.

But the station also looks like it's as tall as it is wide (but much more narrow on the non-planar section, called the Spike). It starts at maybe 1/4-1/2 as wide, and narrows down to maybe 1/10 as wide. So we're looking at a good amount of available space in the entire volume of the station - enough to fit 2.1 million people with at most the same (but probably better) population density as Manhattan. For a space station, that seems pretty reasonable. It also doesn't include the Armada surrounding the station.

Your fix will make it bigger than Delaware (or half the size of Connecticut) before we even take into consideration the depth. That is absolutely freaking huge.

(Also, about half the size of the Death Star, which is about 100 miles across)

Well, Absalom station is supposed to be the biggest intergalactic trade hub there is due to its ultapowerful drift beacon. So, absolutely freaking huge would make sense.


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Ventnor wrote:
bookrat wrote:
technarken wrote:
Upon seeing the size of Absalom Station and Idari I'm just gonna add a 0 to the end of their sizes. A 5 mile wide space station strikes me as a bit small for what it is, but a 50 mile wide station? That's more like a nation in space.

I thought about this as I read about Absolom Station in the new AP book.

It's 5 miles wide on it's planar section, and it looks fairly even for it's length. That gives it about 25 square miles the the planar section of the station. Or about the same size as Manhattan.

Manhattan's population is 1.6 mil. Absolom Station has 2.1 mil.

But the station also looks like it's as tall as it is wide (but much more narrow on the non-planar section, called the Spike). It starts at maybe 1/4-1/2 as wide, and narrows down to maybe 1/10 as wide. So we're looking at a good amount of available space in the entire volume of the station - enough to fit 2.1 million people with at most the same (but probably better) population density as Manhattan. For a space station, that seems pretty reasonable. It also doesn't include the Armada surrounding the station.

Your fix will make it bigger than Delaware (or half the size of Connecticut) before we even take into consideration the depth. That is absolutely freaking huge.

(Also, about half the size of the Death Star, which is about 100 miles across)

Well, Absalom station is supposed to be the biggest intergalactic trade hub there is due to its ultapowerful drift beacon. So, absolutely freaking huge would make sense.

I kind of assumed that a lot more that 2.1 million people were in Absolom Station... If it says otherwise, then I'm a little disappointed, I kind of assumed that we didn't loose the majority of Golarion's population when it disappeared; and that the majority of them live on Absolom Station.

... The former can still be true, but the latter seems less likely considering the other planets boast populations in the billions... I can only assume most of Pathfinder's Core races are now spread out over a lot of planets. Partly because (for humans especially) they have to be considering they can't all fit on Absolom and still be anywhere near as populous as the other Starfinder Core races.

Absolom Station, Size, and Population:
I just looked up a video I watched ages ago to check how big the station would have to be to contain the majority of our IRL population, then looked up the comparison and plugged it into a calculator... Assuming a square floor space, then roughly it would have to have a diameter of just under 80km, or more specifically 78,867 meters. Given that this is a circular station, its closer to 88,992 meters wide.

Considering you all might be Americans (and not all of you might be engineers) the conversion of that last number (88.992km) is apparently 55.297 miles. So... The comparison to the death star would be palpable, and the "make it ten times larger" assessment would be accurate. Otherwise we'd be at most dealing with roughly a tenth of Golarion's likely population at a modern time period.

... That's assuming that we're dealing with the absolutely insane population density that the Kowloon Walled City had while it was still standing. Which based on visual cues and an image presented in the video I mentioned, appears to be using rooms roughly 10 to 15 feet wide (one for each person or several to a room), with each building being roughly 10 to 20 floors tall (likely averaging 15). All with very little space permitted for navigation between rooms.

I redid the math for Tokyo for a more "reasonable" population density with the same goal of 7.4 billion (because the video didn't provide a comparison on what everyone living in one city under Tokyo density populations would be like), and the size of the resulting city would have a Diameter of 747.216km, or 464.298 miles.

... If you wanted to keep it at 2.1 Million people on Absolom Station, you could get away with it at the same population as Tokyo at roughly 10 miles wide.

Funnily enough, Tokyo's population is probably 10 times larger than the 2.1 Million for Absolom Station one of you mentioned. An ACTUAL Space Tokyo in the same disk shape of Absolom with its full 37 million-ish people would have a diameter of roughly 32 miles

No idea how Absolom Station's spire fits into any of these calculations, but the same people who made that video made a video going over "what if everyone lived in one building?" and we can probably watch that to get a better idea (I still need to watch that).

This should be some pretty comprehensive information for deciding how big you actually want Absolom station to be, or how many people you want living on there.


I'm not sure I like having so many Pact Worlds in the same star system. I may spread them out a bit although I haven't decided how just yet. I know I'll leave Eox and Diaspora in the Golarian system for potential conflict with Absolom. Idari too I suppose since the Kasatha would still likely plop down in whatever system Absolom is.


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It being 10 times wider and "taller" also makes it more believeable as a sustainable nation-state-satellite, as well as an adventure site unto itself. At 5 miles wide and a certain value of "height" it strikes me as the sort of place a determined enough group could map out. At 50? You can have techno-wilderness in that undercity.

Liberty's Edge

Not sure if someone said this, but carbonedge shurikens in my game will probably be operative weapons. Something just feels off about them not being operative weapons. My cyborg ninjas should be able to use their dexterity and trick attacks with their shurikens!


technarken wrote:
It being 10 times wider and "taller" also makes it more believeable as a sustainable nation-state-satellite, as well as an adventure site unto itself. At 5 miles wide and a certain value of "height" it strikes me as the sort of place a determined enough group could map out. At 50? You can have techno-wilderness in that undercity.

It's much bigger than Babylon 5, so I'm actually ok with it's size.


SkylerJB wrote:
Not sure if someone said this, but carbonedge shurikens in my game will probably be operative weapons. Something just feels off about them not being operative weapons. My cyborg ninjas should be able to use their dexterity and trick attacks with their shurikens!

I'm probably gonna expand the operative weapon list significantly, to include things like Taclashes, Starknives, Unarmed Strikes, and Battlegloves. Those weapons will be operative weapons only if you use dex for your to-to-hit though, so non-operatives don't get hosed in the deal.


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Main things I'm planning to change is the flaw trade-off - you do get ability points for deranking a stat at a trade of 2:1 rounded down, but you have to derank a minimum of 2 points to receive an ability point and you can do a max derank of 4.

The other thing I'm thinking on is changing around some aspects of the Solarian to make Charisma more potent on them - mostly adding damage to their Solar Weapon or enhancement to their Solar Armour.


I want to apply starfinder to StarWars universe.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Since we have a bare minimum of information about the Pact Worlds in the core rulebook but apparently will be getting an entire hardback about the system in March, I am thinking of starting the party out on a distant colony world out in the Vast. They can then spend the next few months (real time, not necessarily game time) exploring worlds not detailed by Paizo before going to the Pact Worlds system and getting involved in its politics.

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