Hey All,
I'm a veteran of 3.5, (which is virtually identical to Pathfinder, don't care what any of you say), and I'm about to run a steampunk campaign using d20 Modern classes and Pathfinder rules.
I actually prefer 5e because the combats are so much more balanced but it isn't a system that supports the crunchy, gritty kind of game I want to run. From my extensive time as a DM running 3.x games I remember that fights tend to be *extremely* one sided one-way-or-the-other, especially at higher levels, and I really want to avoid that. What have you other DMs done to ensure that combat is not a boring slog or so one sided as to be anti-climactic.
I've been playing around with the idea of using armor as DR, (light 3/-, medium 5/-, and heavy 7/-), so that low level enemies can still ping characters who are meaningfully higher than their CR.
What do you all think of this and what solutions have you implemented in your own games?
(Context: I remember playing in the Age of Worms with two other guys and literately wading through a small army of lizardfolk as a barbarian and was essentially untouchable... I want to avoid that kind of scenario. 20+ of any monster, no matter how lowly, really ought to be able to overcome 4 PCs).
Thanks in advance.
Pathfinder isn't designed for 'gritty' so you may be fighting an uphill battle here. A party of four level 6 character are supposed to be able to defeat twenty level 1s, and all the game rules were written with that in mind.
I've run games with PCs with super-high AC and it is annoying - I can't think of any reason to have enemies do anything other than realise their attacks are useless and flee. It isn't guaranteed to happen, though, so you could simply not worry about it until it starts to be an issue. (You might equally end up with a party with mediocre AC, but it doesn't matter because they can destroy those twenty monsters in a single round - AC disparity is far from the only problem in high-level play.)
Some options:
Add a 'fighting offensively' option where characters can get a bonus to attack rolls in exchange for a penalty to AC. This is useful for minions who would otherwise be ineffective.
Make all AC boosters cost twice as much.
Play the game only at low level. E6 rules, for example, stop you levelling up beyond a certain point, instead giving you small things like extra feats.
Use an 'opposed rolling' system for attacks. Instead of an AC of 27, have an AC of 17+d20, rerolled every time. This increases the variance, and makes getting attacked feel more interactive.
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In PF, if you play by WBL...it will essentially never happen.
20 common orcs vs a Level 10 fighter...the fighter will just maw through them and most likely have high enough AC to not take any hits, while killing many of them in a round.
Guess a way to look at it, is to understand the rough power level of Pathfinder characters:
Levels 1-5: Gritty fantasy (Game of Thrones aka a song of ice and fire)
Levels 6-10: Heroic fantasy (Lord of the Rings, Shannara chronicles)
Levels 11-15: Wuxia (Dynasty Warriors games, Bayonetta, Devil May Cry)
Levels 16-20: Superheroes (Avengers, Justice League, Final Fantasy endgame, etc...)
- Target touch AC. It doesn't scale anywhere near regular AC. Ranged touch attacks, for example, are how wizards hit things in combat.
- Give the opponents favorable tactics, terrain and environmental conditions to give them advantages while hindering the PC's. Add obstacles and barriers in the middle of the combat theater that the PC's have to work around (ie, the enemy gets "free" battlefield control, but the PC's have to spend actions).
- Spread everyone out if the setting allows it. Battlefield control is less effective outdoors where opponents can just walk around or fly over obstacles. AoE spells are less effective when no one is clumped together. When the PC's are spread out buff spells are less likely to be able to include everyone.
The last two really boil down to: force the PC's to use tactics of their own. This is more rewarding for everyone. The most satisfying fights are ones where you are overcoming odds to get everyone into position to deliver that final smackdown.
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Sounds to me like you want an E6 game. If you cap everything at 6 levels, the 20 CR 1 creatures will at least be a fight.
Does it change or alter anyone's opinion to know there will be zero magic of any kind and the classes we will be using are from d20 Modern? A lot of your posts mention 3.x classes and magic spells, so I just wanted to point that out.
Consider using terrain and weather to weaken the PCs. Extreme hot and cold weather can cause fatigue, giving noticeable penalties. Some spells like endure elements can bypass this to an extent, but then precious spell slots are being used and it weakens the PCs, especially at lower levels. Some environments (like a swamp), may cause disease. Some types of environments discourage heavy armor, like a nautical or desert.
Night time raids are often more difficult than fights in the day, especially for PCs that depend on heavy armor or buff spells, even long term buff spells like mage armor.
Mooks with nets, nets can entangle, a usefull debuff for a minion to be giving out and it's a ranged touch so even if they are not proficient with the net they're likely to hit anyway.
It has been over a decade since I even looked at d20 Modern so I don't have any particular insight about that. If their is no magic, including no magic equipment, challenges will be vastly different. Almost all of the AC boosts that most characters get after a couple of levels comes from magic, so that is going to be vastly different. A good portion of to hit bonus and damage comes from magic items as well.
Basically, I think you are far enough away from any sort of standard game that most of us won't be able to offer you any meaningful advice.
Excessively high AC in Pathfinder generally comes not from character class, but from PCs buying magic mithral breastplate, ring of protection and amulet of natural armor from ye olde magick shoppe. In a zero magic world, I don't think that will be a problem unless d20 Modern classes give you massive intrinsic AC bonuses of some kind?
One thing 5e does is limiting armor class. If you don't let it get out of control then low-level enemies still have a chance of hurting PCs and nothing is unhittable. It also has the added benefit that PCs rarely waste their turn not hitting enemies. So you might just think about imposing limits on how certain types of armor stack (maybe natural armor and armor don't stack, for instance). Good luck!
What have you other DMs done to ensure that combat is not a boring slog or so one sided as to be anti-climactic.
First, I like John's ideas to boost the NPCs.
If you want to address slogs specifically, go for rather offensive NPCs: Pouncing big cats, magical beasts, blaster mages, archers etc.. Ideally they will make the players nervous by dealing significant damage, but are defeated quickly enough for a relieving breath. Of course, it's risky, PCs are more likely to die a surprising death.
When it comes to one sided, remember that you can bring in significant reinforcements or let hurt enemies flee. Maybe the boss is holding back a very strong move (because it's expensive or whatever), but if the battle looks well for the PCs, he pulls this move.
I've been playing around with the idea of using armor as DR, (light 3/-, medium 5/-, and heavy 7/-), so that low level enemies can still ping characters who are meaningfully higher than their CR.
Low level enemies can do a lot of things to contribute without attacking directly: Aid another, heal, provide flanking, grapple a caster, use a switch to activate a trap, yell while they are abused as fixed meat shields by a stronger foe. From my feeling there are numerous more options.
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Does it change or alter anyone's opinion to know there will be zero magic of any kind and the classes we will be using are from d20 Modern? A lot of your posts mention 3.x classes and magic spells, so I just wanted to point that out.
Maybe next time say that up front so we don't waste our time giving irrelevant advice?
When I've run battles with a large group of low level creatures Vs Mid level PCs I've used "Unit" House Rules.
It's been a long time, but IIRC: Take your low level base creature, say a level 1 or 2 warrior. Group a bunch of them into one creature, stack their HP, add +1 to BAB and AC and +2 or 3 to damage for each member of the unit, treat them as 1 level higher per member for the purposes of their saves. As they take damage and members of the unit are killed off they become less effective.
Treat them as a large creature that moves like a swarm.
Each Unit was 8 troops, so instead of facing 20-ish low level troops the PCs face off against 2 or 3 Units of troops.
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I actually prefer 5e because the combats are so much more balanced but it isn't a system that supports the crunchy, gritty kind of game I want to run. From my extensive time as a DM running 3.x games I remember that fights tend to be *extremely* one sided one-way-or-the-other, especially at higher levels, and I really want to avoid that. What have you other DMs done to ensure that combat is not a boring slog or so one sided as to be anti-climactic.
Pathfinder does crunchy very well, but isn't actually good at gritty. Those are entirely separate things.
I've been playing around with the idea of using armor as DR, (light 3/-, medium 5/-, and heavy 7/-), so that low level enemies can still ping characters who are meaningfully higher than their CR.
I think you'll find that the game breaks even more, and in unexpected ways. Armor as DR is one of those things that fundamentally change a core mechanic, but was added so super-late in development that it runs counter to all manner of other design assumptions. So you'll have all sorts of weird side-effects.
One obvious one: if everyone has DR, it means 2-weapon/natural weapon/flurry builds will be even more screwed up than they are, compared to regular two-handed barbarians (which are already the dominant melee build). So you reduce the number of viable builds.
Less obvious: archery will either be nerfed into the ground or even more dominant, based on whether the archer gets Clustered Shot.
(Context: I remember playing in the Age of Worms with two other guys and literately wading through a small army of lizardfolk as a barbarian and was essentially untouchable... I want to avoid that kind of scenario. 20+ of any monster, no matter how lowly, really ought to be able to overcome 4 PCs).
This is really a matter of taste, and genre. Pathfinder models a fiction genre kind of like Die Hard, where a hero does wade through ranks of mooks to face off against the boss.
It's a kind of heroic action fiction that has roots all the way to myth; you don't hear about Herakles having trouble with common mooks, it's only the boss monsters that are worth describing. Same with the other heroes from Greek myth; it's all about duels between people with names and backstories.
So it might not be real-world realistic, but it is realistic in the sort of genre Pathfinder was written for.
Does it change or alter anyone's opinion to know there will be zero magic of any kind and the classes we will be using are from d20 Modern? A lot of your posts mention 3.x classes and magic spells, so I just wanted to point that out.
Why don't you just use d20 Modern then? If you're basically trying to run a game that's super-far away from Pathfinder, why go to all the trouble of adopting a game system and then trying to change 95% of it?
If you want mooks to not be pushovers, cheat.
Use free-form XP, and just make the mooks as tough as you want them to be. Be abstract. If the PCs have been whaling on an NPC and they're getting bored, kill off the NPC. If you want the NPCs to be tougher, give them extra hit points, DR, fast healing, whatever helps make the fight more fun!
Give the NPCs "training" bonuses to hit, like +5 or +10, or whatever you need.
Or if you feel you need to justify it, give them a Mook Template that lets them make swift action Aid Another checks, with enhanced bonuses to hit, AC, CMB, and even damage if appropriate.
There's a DM Screen for a reason.
Use it to change your NPCs to make the game more fun!
If you want mooks to not be pushovers, cheat.
Use free-form XP, and just make the mooks as tough as you want them to be. Be abstract. If the PCs have been whaling on an NPC and they're getting bored, kill off the NPC. If you want the NPCs to be tougher, give them extra hit points, DR, fast healing, whatever helps make the fight more fun!
Give the NPCs "training" bonuses to hit, like +5 or +10, or whatever you need.
Or if you feel you need to justify it, give them a Mook Template that lets them make swift action Aid Another checks, with enhanced bonuses to hit, AC, CMB, and even damage if appropriate.
There's a DM Screen for a reason.
Use it to change your NPCs to make the game more fun!
Firstly its not cheating. A dm's first job is to make sure that the players have fun. If doing that means applying custom templates that give them X hp + whatever else you want, it is not only fair game but good game design. Yes we do agree. Your terminology just irked me
@OP
On my end I typically run epic fantasy style games. To do that I increase most non mook HP dramatically, low their max DPR, and throw on a few special abilities. The hp changes and lower dpr ensure we are not playing rocket tag. Special abilities, particularly those with tactical implications, stop it from becoming a slog so long as the players are wanting to have a fight be more than "Ok. I attack."
Best way to add girttyness? Cut off the item shop and limit item crafting. Make very shops rare and with limited stock. This limits healing per day and lowers overall stats(as the players won't be able to optimize their builds).
You might even want to incorporate some of 5th Edition's hard limits, like no ability score over 20, and try to keep BAB and AC in line. That's harder to do with BAB 1-20 as opposed to PB 2-6, but it's kind of cooked into the d20 Modern system of Full BAB being very rare and the Class Defense Bonus being there. Most PCs will probably have a BAB of +3/4 or +1/2, and most class defense bonuses are approx. +1/2 to +1/3, so PCs will only gradually get bigger attack numbers compared to target ACs.
For truly gritty combat in pathfinder, have you considered wound/vitality from the d20 starwars rpg or the variant Strain/Injury system proposed on these boards?