Sorcerer spell limitation.


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Archmic wrote:

So while DMing a campaign, a player of mine figured that they'd play a Sorcerer; because they are all powerful or something like that.

...
he was quiet distraught,...

I guess you showed him. Congratulations.


In fairness, ordinarily, Sorcerers are one of the most powerful classes in the game at higher levels. I mean, they're still weak early... but 9th Level casters in general tend to become immensely potent once they really hit their stride.

Silver Crusade

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GM Rednal wrote:
In fairness, ordinarily, Sorcerers are one of the most powerful classes in the game at higher levels. I mean, they're still weak early... but 9th Level casters in general tend to become immensely potent once they really hit their stride.

Yup. They're almost as powerful as wizards.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, if you're backporting 3.5, does that mean that your player's sorcerer gets free pickings of the original Alter Self and Polymorph spells? After all, that rule specified that the sorcerer can freely pick his spell known from the PHB, not the CRB.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
No, I'm assuming that the wizard is not wasting spells at the end of the day just because they assume that they'll have spells the next morning. If you don't need to use your spells, save them. But, worst case, they'll have no spells aside from cantrips and they'll have to improvise. Wizards have skills. They don't need to just rely on spells.

If a wizard ends its day with a bounty of spells uncast they're being very cheep or not much is happening, at higher levels sure but I'm assuming low levels, stealing a high level wizards spell book should be extremely difficult and at that level trying to keep a party in prison is almost impossible, I've never heard of someone doing the prison plot much higher than level 6. At which level wizards don't tend to have tons of spells at the end of the day.

They have skills yes hence I said super intelligent commoner, but you're right they also have 4 cantrips, maybe they can detect magic their way out of bother.

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And, furthermore, a default wizard does have a single spell they can prepare from memory, Read Magic. Not an amazing spell, but as GM, I can assume that the wizard has that spell prepared.

how is that helpful in a prison brake session?

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A wizard, just like any other class, should at least consider investing in feats/skills/spells, that protect their weak points. A spellbook is a weak point for the wizard, just like their low HP, any arcane bonded items, and their spell component pouches.

A wizards weaknesses are their Hit Die, Bab, fort save and Reflex save. The spell book is just a class feature that can be exploited by GMs but probably shouldn't be unless you agree it with your players first.

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Just like, for a paladin, their weak points are their Code, their Alignment, their Holy Symbol, and their Deity.

If trying to be a fair GM, I can't really ignore the wizard weak points, but expect Paladins to adhere to their code.

Paladin's weaknesses are their reflex save and touch AC - unless there an archer, in which case there weakness is people who can reach them in melee or disrupt ranged attacks through creating cover. If they're not archers they probably also have major issues with flying enemies and enemies that can get them at range. Oh and fighting anything neutral.

Their code is not a weakness and if a DM aims to exploit it as one they're being one of the most commonly complained about types of a~@#$++ DM on this forum.

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Well, if your camp is protected so poorly that an invisible creature can sneak in and take things (or attack players), that's not really a wizard specific problem, that's an issue for the whole party. Spellbooks are the least of your issues, in that case.

A simple 1st level Alarm spell is a great way to protect the entire campsite from invisible creatures. Doesn't make them visible, but does wake up the party to the presence of an intruder.

Not every wizard prepares an alarm spell everyday, heck most don't from what I can tell, not until their first level slots stop being useful in combat anyway, which a the level a prison brake plot is likely to happen, they haven't. Grease can still mess up armored opponents and Color spray is excellent against mooks. Snowball can do some fair damage and stagger lock people. I think its a very particular kind of game where people need to be worrying about DMs stealing from them in the first 1-5 (6 for Sorcs) levels. After that people start to get enough resources that they can use some on the day to day but again alarm may not be someone's first thought unless they've had a similar experience in an earlier game.

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And, for balance between the Sorcerer and the Wizard, Alarm is one of those spells that the Sorcerer can't really afford because it wastes spells known. That wide spell selection is exactly what makes the wizard shine, and this is exactly the sort of spell that only a wizard can realistically employ.

As an aside, that 25gp "Guard Dog" from the CRB is a great way to protect a campsite from invisible creatures, since it has scent. Train it to make noise when it encounters unfamiliar smells and you have an invisibility detector. Encircling a camp with caltrops, would also work pretty well, especially a low levels. A party doesn't need a spell like Alarm to protect themselves, it's just an added advantage.

I've literally never heard of anyone buying a guard dog. Sure you could do it, but the chances of your guard dogs dying... frequently is pretty high. Especially if you have to train each one xD. AoEs are a thing.

Circling a camp with caltrops is beaten by a single perception check which is basically just rolling the dice (See what I did) as far as the player is concerned. Not a bad plan though I'll grant.

This is quite the thread derail though so I think if you want to continue this discussion make a thread about targeting Wizards spell books and Paladin's codes and how fair it is to do.


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Archmic wrote:
To those of you denying that it was in 3.5, grab a PHB open it to page 54 and read the right set of text; if I could post a picture on here I would, and you'll find that you are wrong.

"It's not a house rule because it's in the rules for a different system." has to be the most ludicrous thing I've ever read on this subforum. And that includes the "Succubus in a grapple" thread.

Yeah, let me just bring in my Shadowrun rules, it's cool.

Scarab Sages

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@Chromantic Durgon <3: Long posts can't be quoted thanks to the paizo site's auto cut off.

Making the Paladin adhere to their code is not the GM exploiting weak points. Yeah, they're a good and bad way to do anything, but I'm not talking about being deliberatly unfair to a player.

I do think the code is a weakness of the paladin in the same respect that the spellbook is a weakness of the wizard. Neither are always weaknesses and the GM's role isn't dedicated to exploit these mechanics, but neither is it the GM's role to deliberately avoid situations where these weaknesses could be exposed. And when exposed, the GM's role is to adhere to the rules as written (which cover the loss of a spellbook or the infraction of a code).

If the PC wizard is careless with their spell book, losing it (or having it get destroyed) can be a reasonable outcome to some encounters. Just like if they use their familiar in a wreckless manner, it may die.

For example, if the encounter takes place underwater, and PC wizard doesn't waterproof his spellbook, swimming around with it, will likely destroy it. Probably not instantly, but if the player spends a few hours underwater without protecting their spellbook beforehand, it's probably destroyed, just like any other book. The player could've left it on dry land, or gotten a waterproof container for it, but instead, they were careless with something very important.

As GM, I might give a subtle or direct warning, but if the player is still careless, warnings aren't really a solution.


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I gotta say, I agree with Murdock on this. If you're constantly putting the party into moral dilemmas just to mess with the Paladin, then that's just being a jerk and a poor GM, in my opinion. But putting the party into situations where the Paladin may have to pause for a bit and maybe suggest a different path, keeping their code intact, then that only enriches roleplay. And if the Paladin is being an unrepentant murderhobo, then a fall is in order.
Similarly, if every intelligent enemy in battles always goes for the sunder on the spellbook or you just have a thief nicking it with no warning that something like that might happen ("This city isn't safe for strangers, be sure to keep a close eye on your valuables."), then that's kinda mean. But presenting a wizard with an entirely solvable situation where they might just have to pause and consider a way to protect the spellbook (like with the swimming example which has dozens of solutions), then that's honestly pretty fun, I'd say. Situations like that also underline the utility of wizards which is the main draw to them.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:


Making the Paladin adhere to their code is not the GM exploiting weak points. Yeah, they're a good and bad way to do anything, but I'm not talking about being deliberatly unfair to a player.

if you are willing to target spell books explicitly and consider that in the same breath as a Paladin's code then it sounds like you'd be willing to target his code explicitly which I'd call unfair.

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Neither are always weaknesses and the GM's role isn't dedicated to exploit these mechanics, but neither is it the GM's role to deliberately avoid situations where these weaknesses could be exposed. And when exposed, the GM's role is to adhere to the rules as written (which cover the loss of a spellbook or the infraction of a code).

If the PC wizard is careless with their spell book, losing it (or having it get destroyed) can be a reasonable outcome to some encounters. Just like if they use their familiar in a wreckless manner, it may die.

For example, if the encounter takes place underwater, and PC wizard doesn't waterproof his spellbook, swimming around with it, will likely destroy it. Probably not instantly, but if the player spends a few hours underwater without protecting their spellbook beforehand, it's probably destroyed, just like any other book. The player could've left it on dry land, or gotten a waterproof container for it, but instead, they were careless with something very important.

As GM, I might give a subtle or direct warning, but if the player is still careless, warnings aren't really a solution.

See but expecting PCs to buy and train dogs or cover their camps in caltrops is quite different from making water effect books. And this discussion was started with you referring the jail plot hook.

Engineering a situation wherein PCS get thrown in jail and lose their main class features (spells through their spell book) is quite different to watching them be reckless and stupid with said spell book. One is the players fault the other isn't.

anyway like I said I'd much rather you make a thread to discuss this if you want to keep talking to me about it rather than us continue to derail this one.

@Nixitur

I never said don't make players think or challenge them, I'm saying that the suggestion killing an AC is comparable to stealing a wizards spell book or making a Paladin fall is false. Murdock has moved the goal posts quite a bit at this point from taking spell books and expecting quite niche security measures to enforcing the fact a book would get wet if it was in water.

I don't disagree with the latter at all.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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Archmic wrote:
So, DEVELOPERS what constitutes a common and uncommon spell in BASE GAME; I'm not interested in PFS or any premade setting. Just the ruling on that obscure line in the CORE BOOK.

PFS is overseen by people who created and write for the game, and PFS tends to follow the rules more strictly. So, PFS rulings are actually worth looking at for rules questions.

There's plenty of sorcerer statblocks in the bestiaries, NPC codexes, modules, and adventure paths that know non-Core spells.

Scarab Sages

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
...

This started with you suggesting it would be unreasonable for the GM to use the Jail plot hook.

As GM, I don't need to engineer a situation where the PCs get thrown in jail. I just need to create NPCs that are interested in non-lethal takedown of the PCs, and eventually, the PCs may slip up and it may happen. And most certainly not every encounter, but having a variety of encounter types should include this sort of thing, every so often.

Besides, as mentioned for the classic jail plot hook, the player's gear isn't permanently lost, unless the PCs flee the jail without retrieving it. Their gear is in with evidence, unharmed. The idea isn't to permanently impair the players, the idea is just a session or two, where the PCs need to resolve it without any gear.

And, on the OP's topic, Sorcerer's really shine in this sort of situation.


Murdock Mudeater wrote:
This started with you suggesting it would be unreasonable for the GM to use the Jail plot hook.

Not even close to the truth this started with this

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Thats not really a fair comparison, a Druid is still a druid with all their druidy powers in their AC dies.

If a Wizard loses his book he retains a couple school powers and other than that he is basically a super intelligent commoner.

Its like making a Paladin fall. The Prison type plot hooks work because the books isn't destroyed in most cases but rather usually held as evidence or something similar.

Also Clerics can get their holy symbol tattoo'd onto their hand or something.

I didn't say anything about the jail plot being unfair at all. Disagree with me by all means, but don't put words in my mouth.

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As GM, I don't need to engineer a situation where the PCs get thrown in jail. I just need to create NPCs that are interested in non-lethal takedown of the PCs, and eventually, the PCs may slip up and it may happen. And most certainly not every encounter, but having a variety of encounter types should include this sort of thing, every so often.

Surely you also need the PCs to be criminals?

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Besides, as mentioned for the classic jail plot hook, the player's gear isn't permanently lost, unless the PCs flee the jail without retrieving it. Their gear is in with evidence, unharmed. The idea isn't to permanently impair the players, the idea is just a session or two, where the PCs need to resolve it without any gear.

And, on the OP's topic, Sorcerer's really shine in this sort of situation.

If you'd read my comments which I beginning to get the feeling you maybe didn't you'd know I'd already said that books like this would be held in evidence and say it was a permanent loss to have it taken.


This is my last post:

Under the magic section of the CORE BOOK just above the section where it covers divine magic; Chapter 9 page 220 of the book I have under the Sorcerer and Bard section for adding spells it states this.

"Adding Spells to a Sorcerer's or Bard's Repertoire: A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time she attains a new level in her class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: Bard Spells Known or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list she now knows. With permission from the GM, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they come across while adventuring."

I will point the very last line: "With permission from the GM, sorcerers and bard can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spell that they come across while adventuring."

EVERY spell NOT PRINTED in the Core Book is NEW compared to the spells printed in it as the rest of the books are NEWER than the CORE BOOK.

Following this line of thinking; one can assume that spells not in the CORE Book would fall under the "Unusual" spells that they would have to gain some study of to learn.

I never said that my player couldn't LEARN the spells, but he'd have to either encounter it or find something that would explain how the spell works; such as a scroll or spell book; to be able to learn it.

Note, I have supported my understanding of the rules via book; Core Book Chapter 3 page 22 and Core Book Chapter 9 page 220; and given where you can find this information and how I am drawing my conclusion to what I have read.

In conclusion, unless you can support that what I have concluded is wrong; by Developer post with link, Book Chapter and page reference, or Errata; I ask that you stop posting replies to what I have asked clarification on. Replies such as: "You showed him" and "You're wrong but I'm not going to post anything you can look at to prove it" aren't helpful, wanted, or needed.

Sczarni

@Murdock & Chromantic: Please follow Chromantic's advise and take this discussion to its own thread. This has nothing to do with the OP's questions anymore and is derailing the thread.

@Archmic: Sorry for piggy-backing on others posts and not being more helpful. I should also ask a few question to get clarification so I can try and help you better, if you don't mind.

1.)

Arhmic wrote:
What do I consider legal spells for a Sorc? Any spell found on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list in the CORE book.

Is the core rule book the only book you are using in your game? Did you allow your Sorcerer to choose a bloodline from another book? Did you allow your other PC's to make characters from other Pathfinder books?

2.)

Archmic wrote:
A common spell is translated as any spell found in the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list in the CRB.

Is this your interpretation of what a common spell is? If not, could you please cite where this is written?

Now a couple things I think I can answer with examples, hopefully.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/classes/sorcerer.html#sorce rer wrote:
A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.

My thoughts here pertains mostly to the bold text. If I were to follow your interpretation of this rule in the second bold section, then in the first bold section the Sorcerer should be allowed to select any spell from any source they wish. (Off the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list of course).

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedPlayersGuide/coreClasses/sorcere r.html wrote:
New spells presented in Chapter 5 are marked here with asterisks (*).
Archmic wrote:
"These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study."

In the Advance Player's Guide, as quoted above, the rules specifically call out new spells added to the Sorcerer's spell list. This would indicate to me that as new source material is released the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list is updated with "common or new" spells that can be chosen. I would then take the statement above about uncommon spells as spells from source material that is not considered "core" books, such as APs, Companion Guides, 3PP if you allow it, etc... (Core source material includes: CRB, APG, ARG, ACG, UC, UM, Pathfinder Unchained, Occult Adventures, and there may be a few more.)

Also, as someone else has pointed out, if you use Paizo's PRD spell list index: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/indices/spelllists.html and select just the core material and the sorcerer/wizard option this should give you a list of common spells that can be selected.

Once again, this all comes down to whether or not you are just using the Core Rulebook or if you are allowing other source material.

Sczarni

Archmic wrote:

This is my last post:

Under the magic section of the CORE BOOK just above the section where it covers divine magic; Chapter 9 page 220 of the book I have under the Sorcerer and Bard section for adding spells it states this.

"Adding Spells to a Sorcerer's or Bard's Repertoire: A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time she attains a new level in her class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: Bard Spells Known or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list she now knows. With permission from the GM, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they come across while adventuring."

I will point the very last line: "With permission from the GM, sorcerers and bard can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spell that they come across while adventuring."

EVERY spell NOT PRINTED in the Core Book is NEW compared to the spells printed in it as the rest of the books are NEWER than the CORE BOOK.

Following this line of thinking; one can assume that spells not in the CORE Book would fall under the "Unusual" spells that they would have to gain some study of to learn.

I never said that my player couldn't LEARN the spells, but he'd have to either encounter it or find something that would explain how the spell works; such as a scroll or spell book; to be able to learn it.

All I can say at this point is that your interpretation of the rules are fine, as long as you let your player's know before they started playing. Which, from previous posts, it sounds like you did. You are justified to run the rules as you see fit, after all that is the great thing about gaming systems. I do not agree with your interpretation of the rules, as I know everyone I have ever played with wouldn't either but my opinion, and theirs, is not relevant for your game. I wish you the best for your game and hope you and your player's have fun!! Good gaming!!


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Did you tell the sorcerer player about this houserule before they built the character or afterwards?


Varrian Lunari wrote:

@Murdock & Chromantic: Please follow Chromantic's advise and take this discussion to its own thread. This has nothing to do with the OP's questions anymore and is derailing the thread.

@Archmic: Sorry for piggy-backing on others posts and not being more helpful. I should also ask a few question to get clarification so I can try and help you better, if you don't mind.

1.)

Arhmic wrote:
What do I consider legal spells for a Sorc? Any spell found on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list in the CORE book.

Is the core rule book the only book you are using in your game? Did you allow your Sorcerer to choose a bloodline from another book? Did you allow your other PC's to make characters from other Pathfinder books?

2.)

Archmic wrote:
A common spell is translated as any spell found in the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list in the CRB.

Is this your interpretation of what a common spell is? If not, could you please cite where this is written?

Now a couple things I think I can answer with examples, hopefully.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/classes/sorcerer.html#sorce rer wrote:
A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.
My thoughts here pertains mostly to the bold text. If I were to follow your interpretation of this rule in the second bold section, then in the first bold section the Sorcerer should be allowed to select any spell from any source they wish. (Off the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list of course)....

Please reference my latest updated post.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Would you let the sorcerer learn old 3.5 spells?

I mean, the game is backwards compatible. These spells predate the CRB, so they aren't new, and following your line of logic they therefore aren't unusual.

This sorcerer should go dig up a copy of the old Spell Compendium and go to town!


Spacelard wrote:

Did you tell the sorcerer player about this houserule before they built the character or afterwards?

I informed all players that they needed to tell me what classes they would be playing before hand so as that I could help them with creating their chars and cover anything that they might not see or know as explaining every rule in the game takes a lot longer than answering char specific questions.

I don't actively attempt to sabotage or destroy my players. I've just been playing not only pathfinder but pen and paper games much longer than any of them.

So to answer your question directly, no, but in my defense he created his char without informing me of what he wanted to play.

As it was we ended up spending 6 hours going over and fixing almost every players char before we actually got to start playing due to several of them making their chars on Hero Lab, rather than using their books.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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It sounds like you won't be satisfied unless a designer directly tells you that you're wrong, despite the fact:

1) The sorcerer class description explicitly says the class casts from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Spell lists expand with each new publication. The only way spells from other publications would be barred is if the GM forbids them (which is what you did).

2) Spontaneous casters don't work this way in PFS, which is maintained by people who create and write for this game.
3) You can find numerous examples of sorcerers in the Bestiaries, modules, adventure paths, and campaign setting books that have spells from non-core publications.

4) The lines you're referencing mean the GM can permit PCs learn spells outside of their spell list. It doesn't say anything about preventing them from learning spells that are in class's spell list. You're misinterpreting a line meant to encourage GMs to add some flavor to their game and taking it out of context.

From multiple perspectives and written examples, your misinterpretation of that obscure line is just a house rule.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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Archmic wrote:
unless you can support that what I have concluded is wrong; by Developer post with link

I've already done so, but you ignored it.

So I'll do the research for you.

Above you will note I told you where they explained the "unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study". I was off with my memory, as I said it was Dragon 308 or 318. It was in fact Dragon 338, so I'm sorry my memory from 2005 is so bad.

The article on page 97 explains Sorcerers and how to handle a sorcerer asking for spells that Wizards can't cast.

It goes on to explain:

Quote:
Allowing Sorcerers free access to spells off other [class] spell lists can prove troublesome, but some DMs might allow them a limited number of spells off other lists, provided they put forth effort to learn them.

In short it is a full page explaining that sentence means allowing (with GM permission) your sorcerers to do what Wizards have to do independent research to do. Allowing Sorcerers to learn cleric, druid, witch, inquisitor, paladin, ranger, medium, alchemist, and other spells not on the wizard list.

But you can continue to use your punitive interpretation that that passage means "not in core", because this question (to the best of my memory has never been asked) will not have a developer comment. There is little to no chance of it getting one, it just isn't a infrequently asked question.


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Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Why on earth did you ask this question in the RULES forum if you were completely unwilling to accept the possibility that your interpretation of the rules might differ from everyone else's? Varrian Lunari is correct that you are certainly allowed to interpret and play however you wish, but this is the rules forum, so you're going to get commonly accepted interpretations.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wow, it's been a long time since I came across the "spells from new books can't be learned automatically on levelling up" interpretation.

The normal interpretation is the one everyone here thinks is right: if it's on the sor/wiz spell list, it's fair game.

No, there will not be developer (or even designer) input on this, because one of the "rules" of the rules questions forum is that the consensus is probably right. We have a consensus. We're probably right.


I suspect he didn't realize he was wrong.


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Archmic wrote:

This is my last post:

Under the magic section of the CORE BOOK just above the section where it covers divine magic; Chapter 9 page 220 of the book I have under the Sorcerer and Bard section for adding spells it states this.

"Adding Spells to a Sorcerer's or Bard's Repertoire: A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time she attains a new level in her class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: Bard Spells Known or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list she now knows. With permission from the GM, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they come across while adventuring."

I will point the very last line: "With permission from the GM, sorcerers and bard can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spell that they come across while adventuring."

EVERY spell NOT PRINTED in the Core Book is NEW compared to the spells printed in it as the rest of the books are NEWER than the CORE BOOK.

Following this line of thinking; one can assume that spells not in the CORE Book would fall under the "Unusual" spells that they would have to gain some study of to learn.

I never said that my player couldn't LEARN the spells, but he'd have to either encounter it or find something that would explain how the spell works; such as a scroll or spell book; to be able to learn it.

Note, I have supported my understanding of the rules via book; Core Book Chapter 3 page 22 and Core Book Chapter 9 page 220; and given where you can find this information and how I am drawing my conclusion to what I have read.

In conclusion, unless you can support that what I have concluded is wrong; by Developer post with link, Book Chapter and page reference, or Errata; I ask that you stop posting replies to what I have asked clarification on. Replies such as: "You showed him" and "You're wrong but I'm not going to post anything you can look at to prove it" aren't helpful,...

The problem is your not making logical assumptions but you think you are.

The whole problem is you think the premise that non-core means unusual.

You have nothing to support this idea except making some random leaps, so your argument falls apart.

By the way spells presented in books after the CRB don't actually mean they're new in the game world. It means that they're new from a meta perspective, but it's not like they've just been created in the game universe.


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Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Exactly. His interpretation hinges on what "common" or "unusual" means. This also ignores the fact that the sorcerer description, published in the CRB, could not possibly reference other materials because they did not yet exist.


Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
I suspect he didn't realize he was wrong.

That may be so, but if you're going to ask on the rules forum, you kinda need to be willing to accept that you may be in the extreme minority and not get defensive about it. Otherwise, why even bother?


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Kudos on the extreme literalness you took to your rules interpretation.

Don't ever change, no matter how many players leave.

Silver Crusade

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Archmic wrote:
Spacelard wrote:

Did you tell the sorcerer player about this houserule before they built the character or afterwards?

I informed all players that they needed to tell me what classes they would be playing before hand so as that I could help them with creating their chars and cover anything that they might not see or know as explaining every rule in the game takes a lot longer than answering char specific questions.

I don't actively attempt to sabotage or destroy my players. I've just been playing not only pathfinder but pen and paper games much longer than any of them.

So to answer your question directly, no, but in my defense he created his char without informing me of what he wanted to play.

As it was we ended up spending 6 hours going over and fixing almost every players char before we actually got to start playing due to several of them making their chars on Hero Lab, rather than using their books.

Ok, that's a different twist. So you're a control freak who wants to dictate to players what they can play, and doesn't trust them to make their own PCs.

Yeah, this thread is done. Put a fork in it.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
taks wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
I suspect he didn't realize he was wrong.
That may be so, but if you're going to ask on the rules forum, you kinda need to be willing to accept that you may be in the extreme minority and not get defensive about it. Otherwise, why even bother?

Quite a lot of people come here hoping to be proven correct, not because they're uncertain of the rules (quite the opposite - they're very certain that they're correct).

There are warning signs to watch for: asking for designer input is one, as is any statement involving disagreement with another player. While these aren't always signs of someone who might not appreciate the breadth of knowledge the rules forum denizens can offer, it's not uncommon.

You see similar behaviour in "deniers", where they obfuscate the inquiry by asking for proof and saying that lack of proof is proof of lack. It's a very human desire to be right, and many people get very defensive when other people feel they're wrong.


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Chemlak wrote:
While these aren't always signs of someone who might not appreciate the breadth of knowledge the rules forum denizens can offer, it's not uncommon.

That's all fine and well, but first, we have to define what "uncommon" means.


Archmic wrote:
Spacelard wrote:

Did you tell the sorcerer player about this houserule before they built the character or afterwards?

I informed all players that they needed to tell me what classes they would be playing before hand so as that I could help them with creating their chars and cover anything that they might not see or know as explaining every rule in the game takes a lot longer than answering char specific questions.

I don't actively attempt to sabotage or destroy my players. I've just been playing not only pathfinder but pen and paper games much longer than any of them.

So to answer your question directly, no, but in my defense he created his char without informing me of what he wanted to play.

As it was we ended up spending 6 hours going over and fixing almost every players char before we actually got to start playing due to several of them making their chars on Hero Lab, rather than using their books.

Part of problem I see or lack there of, is examples of the spells selected for clarification? Upon first reading, I was thinking the OP issue was that the uncommon spells were in Core, but from Druid/Cleric listings.

Several of my players also use Hero Lab, which has been a pain as When I start campaigns, I give all my players what resources/books I am using, but they forget to restrict Hero Lab to those sources so I end up with a lot of Feats/Spells I am totally unprepared for, have no knowledge of, and own no references to look up, leaving me quite disadvantaged...

So again, what examples of spells? And were these uncommon spells taken from lists other than Sorcerer/Wizard?


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Fromper wrote:
Archmic wrote:
Spacelard wrote:

Did you tell the sorcerer player about this houserule before they built the character or afterwards?

I informed all players that they needed to tell me what classes they would be playing before hand so as that I could help them with creating their chars and cover anything that they might not see or know as explaining every rule in the game takes a lot longer than answering char specific questions.

I don't actively attempt to sabotage or destroy my players. I've just been playing not only pathfinder but pen and paper games much longer than any of them.

So to answer your question directly, no, but in my defense he created his char without informing me of what he wanted to play.

As it was we ended up spending 6 hours going over and fixing almost every players char before we actually got to start playing due to several of them making their chars on Hero Lab, rather than using their books.

Ok, that's a different twist. So you're a control freak who wants to dictate to players what they can play, and doesn't trust them to make their own PCs.

Yeah, this thread is done. Put a fork in it.

Yea, it seems less like he is trying to find out if he is right or wrong and is actually just trying to find validation for his interpretation. He's not getting his validation so he's ignoring anybody that isn't a DEVELOPER. He's ignoring the fact that PFS uses DEVELOPER written rules which goes against his interpretation because that isn't what he wants.


Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Scrapper wrote:
Several of my players also use Hero Lab, which has been a pain as When I start campaigns, I give all my players what resources/books I am using, but they forget to restrict Hero Lab to those sources so I end up with a lot of Feats/Spells I am totally unprepared for, have no knowledge of, and own no references to look up, leaving me quite disadvantaged...

Make them rebuild.


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Well, given your 'problem' with sorcerer spells from non-Core books, maybe you should restrict ALL of your players to Core-only characters, feats, and spells. That will reduce the headache for you, and also won't be unfairly singling out the sorcerer.


taks wrote:
Scrapper wrote:
Several of my players also use Hero Lab, which has been a pain as When I start campaigns, I give all my players what resources/books I am using, but they forget to restrict Hero Lab to those sources so I end up with a lot of Feats/Spells I am totally unprepared for, have no knowledge of, and own no references to look up, leaving me quite disadvantaged...
Make them rebuild.

I'm not sure how he's disadvantaged though. He clearly has internet access and there are free websites that have all the information at hand: so he can freely look them up, be prepared and and get the knowledge he needs. If he's worried about 'too much' to look though at one time, archives of nethys has a nice feature called sources: it lists all the new rules in that book, and lists books by date, so you can go through at your own pace to look at new stuff.

Not having the books isn't a good reason to restrict anything when multiple site will give you the info with a few button clicks... cash and physical books/PDF's shouldn't limit what you can use.


Scrapper wrote:


Several of my players also use Hero Lab, which has been a pain as When I start campaigns, I give all my players what resources/books I am using, but they forget to restrict Hero Lab to those sources so I end up with a lot of Feats/Spells I am totally unprepared for, have no knowledge of, and own no references to look up, leaving me quite disadvantaged...

how are you disadvantaged though? You literally get them to hyper link you every thing they taken from outside your books...

Unless perhaps you have a very reduced set of resources they could use, meaning you could end up with like 20 hyperlinks xD


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
Unless perhaps you have a very reduced set of resources they could use, meaning you could end up with like 20 hyperlinks xD

Even if he just has core and there are a hundred links, it shouldn't be an issue. Time wasn't one of the things he listed as an issue: "I am totally unprepared for, have no knowledge of, and own no references to look up". Even without hyperlinks it's only slightly harder to find the information.

Scarab Sages

graystone wrote:

I'm not sure how he's disadvantaged though. He clearly has internet access and there are free websites that have all the information at hand: so he can freely look them up, be prepared and and get the knowledge he needs. If he's worried about 'too much' to look though at one time, archives of nethys has a nice feature called sources: it lists all the new rules in that book, and lists books by date, so you can go through at your own pace to look at new stuff.

Not having the books isn't a good reason to restrict anything when multiple site will give you the info with a few button clicks... cash and physical books/PDF's shouldn't limit what you can use.

Disagree. Having a GM that needs to look up rules during a session puts them at a disadvantage in running the game.

First, GM needing to look up rules during the session is a drain for everyone. It can become especially problematic when rules do not exist online or have lots of versions. And it's especially an issue when the forums don't agree on how a particular feat interacts with another rule (or the issue has apparently never occured to anyone). So much easier for everyone if the GM is familiar with the rules being used. Corner cases will still come up, but its nice when that isn't common.

Second, and this one varies, but I've noticed that players which rely on texts they don't have physical copies of, tend to be considerably less likely to know their own rules. Sure, they can find them when it their action is called into question, but they don't know them very well and will assume they have it right until called into question. Doesn't seem to matter if they own the rules in a PDF or find them on the internet, having a physical copy seems to result in players that know their rules better. Print outs work just fine, here (as long as they actually print all the relevent text).

Third, not everyone has easy access to the internet WHILE PLAYING pathfinder. Even with great internet access in your office/study, that doesn't mean you have easy access at the kitchen/dining table when playing with the players. And games in local shops suffer from inconsistent wi-fi, low batteries, and forgotten power cords.

Grand Lodge

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Archmic wrote:

This is my last post:

Under the magic section of the CORE BOOK just above the section where it covers divine magic; Chapter 9 page 220 of the book I have under the Sorcerer and Bard section for adding spells it states this.

"Adding Spells to a Sorcerer's or Bard's Repertoire: A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time she attains a new level in her class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: Bard Spells Known or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list she now knows. With permission from the GM, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they come across while adventuring."

I will point the very last line: "With permission from the GM, sorcerers and bard can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spell that they come across while adventuring."

EVERY spell NOT PRINTED in the Core Book is NEW compared to the spells printed in it as the rest of the books are NEWER than the CORE BOOK.

Following this line of thinking; one can assume that spells not in the CORE Book would fall under the "Unusual" spells that they would have to gain some study of to learn.

I never said that my player couldn't LEARN the spells, but he'd have to either encounter it or find something that would explain how the spell works; such as a scroll or spell book; to be able to learn it.

Note, I have supported my understanding of the rules via book; Core Book Chapter 3 page 22 and Core Book Chapter 9 page 220; and given where you can find this information and how I am drawing my conclusion to what I have read.

In conclusion, unless you can support that what I have concluded is wrong; by Developer post with link, Book Chapter and page reference, or Errata; I ask that you stop posting replies to what I have asked clarification on. Replies such as: "You showed him" and "You're wrong but I'm not going to post anything you can look at to prove it" aren't helpful,...

So glad I'm not playing in your game. You must be a pleasure to spend time with if EVERYONE here is disagreeing with you and you ignore everything they say because it's not a developer replying to you. Do you have any idea how unlikely it is that a developer will comment?


@OP: If you want a Developer's opinion, some of them have threads in the Off-Topic Discussions forum where they will give their interpreted answers to assorted questions, so asking there will help.

If you want a rule directly saying sorcerer's need GM permission to use sources outside the core rulebook, then check this out.

Core Rulebook prd wrote:
The rules presented are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of "house rules" that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.
You are free to decide that no spells beyond the CRB are common (though why wish should be more common than spark is beyond me). You are also free as a GM to say that sources beyond the core rulebook need your clearance or are off limits. Whether or not the players agree with these house rules or wish to play at your table because of them is up to them. If you want a rule saying sorcerer's can learn spells from other sources, check out the following examples (spoiler'd for convenience).
Sources, and a wall of text:
Advanced Player's Guide prd wrote:

Sorcerer/Wizard Spells

0-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Spark: Ignites flammable objects.

1st-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Alter Winds: Increase/decrease strength of natural winds.

Ant Haul: Triples carrying capacity of a creature.

Break: Gives an object the broken condition.

Crafter's Curse: Subject takes –5 on Craft skill checks.

Crafter's Fortune: Subject gains +5 on next Craft check.

Dancing Lantern: Animates a lantern that follows you.

Expeditious Excavation: Moves 5-ft. cubes of earth.

Flare Burst: As flare, but affects all creatures in 10 ft.

Gravity Bow: Arrows do damage as though one size category bigger.

Hydraulic Push: Wave of water bull rushes an enemy.

Memory Lapse: Subject forgets events back to last turn.

Sculpt Corpse: Makes corpse look like another creature.

Stone Fist: Your unarmed strikes are lethal.

Stumble GapF: Small hole trips creatures.

Touch of Gracelessness: Subject loses 1d6 + 1 Dex/two levels and is prone to falling down.

Touch of the Sea: Swim speed becomes 30 ft.

Vanish: As invisibility for 1 round/level (5 max).

2nd-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Accelerate Poison: Hastens targeted poison's onset.

Arrow Eruption: Creates duplicates of killing arrow.

Burning Gaze: Inflict 1d6 fire damage to creature by looking at it.

Create PitF: Creates an extradimensional pit.

Create Treasure MapM: Creates treasure map out of a creature's corpse.

Dust of Twilight: Black particles extinguish light sources within area.

Elemental Speech: Enables you to speak to elementals and some creatures.

Elemental Touch: Gain energy damage touch attack.

Fire Breath: Exhale a cone of flame at will.

Glide: You take no falling damage, move 60 ft./round while falling.

Share Language: Subject understands chosen language.

Slipstream: Wave boosts creature's speed.

Stone Call: 2d6 damage to all creatures in area.

3rd-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Aqueous Orb: Creates rolling sphere of water.

Blood Biography: Learn about a creature with its blood.

Campfire Wall: Creates a shelter around a campfire.

Cloak of Winds: Creates a screen of wind around you.

Devolution: Target eidolon temporarily loses 1 evolution +1/five levels.

Draconic Reservoir: Subject can absorb energy damage and enhance melee attacks with it.

Elemental Aura: Creates an aura of energy around you.

Enter Image: Transfers your consciousness to an object bearing your likeness.

Hydraulic Torrent: Creates torrent of water that bull rushes any creature in its path.

Pain Strike: Inflicts 1d6 nonlethal damage 1 round/level.

Seek Thoughts: Detects thinking creatures' thoughts.

Shifting Sand: Creates difficult terrain and erases tracks, can carry along some creatures and objects.

Spiked PitF: As create pit, but filled with spikes.

Twilight Knife: Floating knife attacks with you.

Versatile Weapon: Weapon bypasses some DR.

4th-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Acid PitF: Creates a pit with a layer of acid on the bottom.

Ball Lightning: Flying balls of lightning deal 3d6 electricity damage each.

Calcific Touch: Touch attack slows target, 1d4 Dex damage.

DetonateM: Inflicts 1d8/level energy damage to all creatures within 15 ft.

Dragon's Breath: Gives you a dragon's breath weapon.

Firefall: Causes fire to burst up, dealing 2d6 fire damage.

Moonstruck: Subject is enraged and confused.

River of Wind: A stream of wind causes nonlethal damage and can knock down or push creatures.

Shadow Projection: Temporarily become a shadow.

Share Senses: See/hear/smell what your familiar is.

True Form: Removes polymorph effects.

Wandering Star Motes: Outlines subject and produces light as a sunrod.

5th-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Fire Snake: Creates a serpentine path of fire 5 ft. long/level that deals 1d6 fire damage/level.

Geyser: Creates a geyser of boiling water.

Hungry PitF: As create pit, but dealing 4d6 damage to those in it as it closes.

Life Bubble: Protects creatures from sustained environmental effects.

Pain Strike, Mass: As pain, but affects multiple creatures.

Phantasmal Web: Catches subjects in illusory web.

Planar Adaptation: Resist harmful effects of other plane.

Suffocation: Target quickly suffocates to death.

Treasure StitchingM: Objects on cloth become embroidered.

6th-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Cloak of Dreams: Creatures within 5 ft. fall asleep.

Contagious Flame: Scorching rays cause 4d6 fire damage, then move on to new targets.

Enemy Hammer: Allows you to telekinetically use a creature as a weapon.

Fluid Form: Gain DR 10/slashing, increases reach 10 ft., and breathe water.

Getaway: Teleports you and select creatures to predetermined location.

Sirocco: Hot wind does 4d6 damage, fatigues those damaged, and knocks creatures prone.

Unwilling ShieldM: Subject shares wounds you receive.

7th-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Deflection: Attacks that miss are redirected back to the source of the attack.

Expend: Wastes creatures' limited use magical ability.

Firebrand: Allies gain flaming weapons, immunity to your fire spells, and a one-use ray of fire attack.

Fly, Mass: One creature/level gains ability to fly.

Phantasmal Revenge: Ghost from corpse hunts killer.

Planar Adaptation, Mass: As planar adaptation, but affects multiple creatures.

Rampart: Creates 5-ft.-thick earthen barrier.

Vortex: Creates a whirlpool in water.

8th-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Euphoric Tranquility: Makes a creature friendly.

Seamantle: Sheathes you in protective water.

Stormbolts: 1d8 damage/level (max 20d8) to targets.

Wall of Lava: Wall damages foes that try to enter, periodically launches lava at nearby targets.

9th-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Clashing Rocks: 20d6 damage to target creature.

Fiery Body: You gain various fire-related powers.

Suffocation, Mass: One creature/level suffocates to death.

Tsunami: Huge wave damages and sweeps up all in its path.

Wall of SuppressionM: Creates wall that disables magic.

Winds of Vengeance: Gives you the ability to fly and attack with wind.

World Wave: Earth moves you across distances.

Ultimate Magic prd wrote:

Sorcerer/Wizard Spells

1st-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Anticipate Peril: Target gains a bonus on one initiative check.

Bungle: Target takes a –20 penalty on its next attack roll or check.

Corrosive Touch: Touch attack deals 1d4 acid/level.

Decompose Corpse: Turn a corpse into a clean skeleton.

Delusional Pride: Target is penalized on attacks and checks but gains bonus against charms and compulsions.

Ear-Piercing Scream: Deal sonic damage and daze target.

Forced Quiet: Target cannot make loud noises.

Icicle Dagger: Masterwork ice dagger deals +1 cold damage.

Interrogation: Target answers questions or suffers pain.

Ki Arrow: Arrow deals damage as your unarmed strike.

Polypurpose Panacea: Gain a relaxing or entertaining effect.

Ray of Sickening: Ray makes the subject sickened.

Restore Corpse: Skeletal corpse grows flesh.

Shadow Weapon: Create a quasi-real masterwork weapon.

Snapdragon Fireworks: Create 1 dragon firework/level.

Summon Minor Monster: Summon 1d3 Tiny animals.

Unprepared Combatant: Target takes –4 on initiative and Reflex saves.

Vocal Alteration: Disguise target's voice.

Youthful Appearance: Target appears younger.

2nd-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Badger's Ferocity: Weapons are keen while you concentrate.

Blood Transcription: Wizard only. Learn a spell from the target's blood.

Boiling Blood: Targets take fire damage; orcs get +2 Strength.

Compassionate Ally: Target is compelled to help injured ally.

Cushioning Bands: Force bands protect against crushing.

Defensive Shock: Electricity damages your attackers.

Delay Pain: Ignore pain for 1 hour/level.

Disfiguring Touch : Target becomes disfigured.

Disguise Other: As disguise self, but affects you or another.

Frigid Touch: Target takes cold damage and is staggered.

Ghostly Disguise: You look like a ghost of yourself.

Haunting Mists: Creatures are shaken and take Wis damage.

Mad Hallucination: Target takes penalties to mental actions.

Masterwork Transformation: Make a normal item into a masterwork one.

Miserable Pity: Opponents cannot attack a pathetic creature.

Oppressive Boredom: Target loses its next action.

Pernicious Poison: Target takes a –4 penalty against poison.

Protective Penumbra: Shadow protects the target from light.

Sculpt Simulacrum: Alter a simulacrum's appearance.

Share Memory: Share one memory with the target.

Silk To Steel: Use a scarf as a shield or whip.

Skinsend: Animate and possess your own skin as if it were a separate creature.

Steal Voice: Target gains the croaking spellblight.

Symbol of Mirroring: Triggered rune creates mirror images.

Unnatural Lust: Target is compelled to kiss or caress another creature.

Unshakable Chill: Target is afflicted with severe cold.

Web Shelter: Create a comfortable shelter made of webbing.

3rd-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Animate Dead, Lesser: Create one skeleton or zombie.

Anthropomorphic Animal: Animal becomes bipedal.

Ash Storm: Hamper vision and movement.

Burrow: Target gains a burrow speed of 15.

Countless Eyes: Extra eyes give all-around vision.

Distracting Cacophony: Noise makes it difficult to cast.

Eldritch Fever: Target gains the eldritch ague spellblight.

Eruptive Pustules: Acid boils burst when you are attacked.

Excruciating Deformation: Target takes Dex and Con damage.

Force Punch: Target takes force damage and is pushed away.

Howling Agony: Screaming pain limits the target's actions.

Ki Leech: Add to your ki pool when you critically hit.

Loathsome Veil: Nauseate and/or sicken weak creatures.

Mad Monkeys: Summon a swarm of mischievous monkeys.

Marionette Possession: As magic jar, but limited to line of sight.

Monstrous Physique I: Take the form and some of the powers of a Small or Medium monstrous humanoid.

Rain of Frogs: Summon a swarm of poisonous frogs.

Reckless Infatuation: Target is compelled to stay near another.

Sands of Time: Target temporarily ages.

Strangling Hair: Your hair animates and grapples.

Toxic Gift: Target suffers the effect of the poison in you.

Unadulterated Loathing: Target is compelled to avoid another creature.

Undead Anatomy I: Take the form and some of the powers of a Small or Medium undead.

Vision of Hell: Illusory hellscape makes creatures shaken.

4th-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Age Resistance, Lesser: Ignore penalties from middle age.

Agonize: Pain encourages an outsider to obey you.

Control Summoned Creature: Direct a summoned monster as if you had summoned it.

Curse of Magic Negation: Target gains the negated spellblight.

Darkvision, Greater: See 120 ft. in total darkness.

Daze, Mass: As daze, but affecting multiple creatures.

False Life, Greater: Gain 2d10 temporary hp + 1/level.

Familiar Melding: Possess your familiar.

Fleshworm Infestation: Worms deal hp and Dex damage.

Malfunction: Construct behaves oddly for 1 round/level.

Malicious Spite: Target is compelled to plot against another.

Monstrous Physique II: Take the form and some of the powers of a Tiny or Large monstrous humanoid.

Overwhelming Grief: Grieving target can take no actions and is denied its Dex bonus.

Ride the Waves: Target can breathe water and swim.

Shadow Step: Teleport from one shadow to another.

Simulacrum, Lesser: Creates a double of a weak creature.

Symbol of Revelation: Triggered symbol reveals illusions.

Symbol of Slowing: Triggered rune slows creatures.

Terrible Remorse: Creature is compelled to harm itself.

Touch of Slime: Touch infests a target with green slime.

Vermin Shape I: Take the form and some of the powers of a Small or Medium vermin.

Vitriolic Mist: As fire shield, except acid damage.

Volcanic Storm: Hot rocks deal 5d6 damage.

5th-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Acidic Spray: 1d6/level acid damage plus 1 round of acid.

Astral Projection, Lesser: Limited astral travel.

Corrosive Consumption: Acidic patch damages an opponent.

Curse of Disgust: Target is sickened when viewing a trigger.

Echolocation: Sonic sense gives you blindsight 40 ft.

Fickle Winds: Wind walls selectively block attacks.

Icy Prison: Thick ice holds and damages the target.

Lightning Arc: Targets in a line take 1d6 electricity/level.

Monstrous Physique III: Take the form and some of the powers of a Diminutive or Huge monstrous humanoid.

Plague Carrier: Target's attacks carry filth fever.

Possess Object: Possess and animate one object.

Rapid Repair: Construct gains fast healing 5.

Smug Narcissism: Target is distracted by its sense of self.

Sonic Thrust: Sound moves targets away from you.

Soothe Construct: Reduce the berserk chance of a construct.

Symbol of Scrying: Triggered rune activates scrying sensor.

Unbreakable Construct: Increase construct hardness or DR.

Undead Anatomy II: Take the form and some of the powers of a Tiny or Large undead.

Vermin Shape II: As vermin shape, but Tiny or Large.

Wall of Sound: Sonic wall deflects and damages creatures.

6th-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Age Resistance: Ignore penalties from old age.

Battlemind Link: You and an ally gain attack and AC bonuses.

Cold Ice Strike: Cone of ice slivers deals 1d6 cold/level.

Conjure Black Pudding: Summon a black pudding.

Contagion, Greater: Infect a subject with a magical disease.

Curse, Major: As bestow curse, but harder to remove.

Envious Urge: Targets steal from or disarm others.

Ice Crystal Teleport: Target is frozen, then teleported.

Leashed Shackles : Target is restricted to a specific location.

Monstrous Physique IV: As monstrous physique III, with more abilities.

Serenity: Peaceful feelings harm those attempting violence.

Symbol of Sealing: Create triggered wall of force.

Undead Anatomy III: Take the form and some of the powers of a Diminutive or Huge undead.

Utter Contempt: Target's attitude worsens by two categories.

Vengeful Outrage: Target is compelled to destroy one enemy.

7th-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Age Resistance, Greater: Ignore penalties from venerable age.

Caustic Eruption: Burst deals 1d6 acid/level and lingers.

Circle of Clarity: Emanation hampers illusions and stealth.

Control Construct: Take control of a construct.

Create Demiplane, Lesser: Create your own demiplane.

Epidemic: Infect a subject with a highly contagious disease.

Ice Body: Your body becomes living ice.

Joyful Rapture: Negate harmful emotions.

Ki Shout: Target takes 1d6 sonic/level and is stunned.

Lunar Veil: Dispel light and revert lycanthropes.

Plague Storm: Cloud infects creatures like contagion.

Resonating Word: Target is damaged, staggered, and stunned.

Scouring Winds: Winds block vision and deal 3d6 damage per round.

Temporary Resurrection: Bring a creature to life for 24 hours, after which it dies again.

Waves of Ecstasy: Pleasure stuns and staggers creatures.

8th-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Call Construct: Summon your construct to you.

Create Demiplane: As lesser create demiplane, but larger and with planar traits.

Orb of the Void: Sphere inflicts negative levels.

Prediction of Failure: Target is permanently shaken and sickened, and may gain a spellblight.

Undead Anatomy IV: As undead anatomy III, but with more abilities.

9th-Level Sorcerer/Wizard Spells
Create Demiplane, Greater: As create demiplane, but larger and with more planar traits.

Cursed Earth: Plants die, living creatures catch diseases, or dead creatures rise as zombies.

Icy Prison, Mass: As icy prison, but it affects 1 creature/level.

Interplanetary Teleport: Teleport to another planet.

Overwhelming Presence: Creatures bow before you as if you were divine.

Ride the Lightning: Transform into electricity.

Symbol of Strife: Triggered rune makes creatures attack.

Symbol of Vulnerability: Triggered rune gives penalties.

Transmute Blood to Acid: Target takes acid damage each round, and its attackers take acid damage.

Wooden Phalanx: Creates 1d4+2 temporary wood golems to fight for you.

See the big ol' Sorcerer at the top of each list? That indicates it is on the sorcerer spell list, the list from which sorcerer's are able to learn spells. None of them indicate they are rare spells. I'd show more sources, but I think this gets the point across.

And as a final tip, using all caps in an argument does not enhance a point any more than screaming at someone does. It often just makes the writer seem defensive, confrontational, and less rational. It hurts arguments and inquiries more than it helps.


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Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Disagree. Having a GM that needs to look up rules during a session puts them at a disadvantage in running the game.

I don't recall this being brought up. And even so, you only have to look it up once when the character is brought, JUST like you'd look over it anyway. Do you recall every core spell offhand? Need to look one up during the game? What's the difference?

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
First, GM needing to look up rules during the session is a drain for everyone.

But no one other than you mentioned "during the session".

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
It can become especially problematic when rules do not exist online or have lots of versions.

How is this different that using the books? Care to guess how many scorpion whips versions you can find by pulling them out?

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
And it's especially an issue when the forums don't agree on how a particular feat interacts with another rule (or the issue has apparently never occured to anyone).

SO... This is something that can happen with core rules. It has NOTHING and I repeat NOTHING to do with the rules. If the DM is only looking at the characters RIGHT before playing, it's on him.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
So much easier for everyone if the GM is familiar with the rules being used. Corner cases will still come up, but its nice when that isn't common.

Agreed, so why not get the character ahead of time and look up what you don't know: This is true no matter what, book or no books. Simply looking up new rules will make them "familiar" and/or show you any issues you might have. It's actually EASIER to find loopholes/corner cases if you look them up online [d20pfsrd has FAQ's included].

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Second, and this one varies, but I've noticed that players which rely on texts they don't have physical copies of, tend to be considerably less likely to know their own rules.

While they MAY know the words in the book, they are LESS likely to know any FAQ, ERRATA, rules interactions, corer cases, loopholes, ect by relying just on those books. AS such, I find those people less knowledgeable about the game as a whole.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Sure, they can find them when it their action is called into question, but they don't know them very well and will assume they have it right until called into question.

How is this different that someone playing a class/race/ect that they haven't played before? And remember, we're talking about books the DM has, not books the players have.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Doesn't seem to matter if they own the rules in a PDF or find them on the internet, having a physical copy seems to result in players that know their rules better. Print outs work just fine, here (as long as they actually print all the relevent text).

This is SO wrong... You can tell me with a straight face that a physical 1st copy of the ACG is better than looking on the internet and finding it. So unless you're printing out every errata/FAQ/BLOG and pasting the info into the books, I'm going to strongly disagree. I'd agree if it's a correct, current version of the information but that's not a guarantee with physical copies/pdf's.

Murdock Mudeater wrote:
Third, not everyone has easy access to the internet WHILE PLAYING pathfinder. Even with great internet access in your office/study, that doesn't mean you have easy access at the kitchen/dining table when playing with the players. And games in local shops suffer from inconsistent wi-fi, low batteries, and forgotten power cords.

Once again, in game access was NEVER mentioned before you. It's simple/easy to copy/paste any info you don't have to attach it to the sheet, extra page or as a document in the computer for offline use. If you're using your Hero Lab, you either have to use a computer to use the sheet, which means all those reasons you gave are meaningless or you printed it out, which means you could also print out any info you need. This argument is moot.


This thread really makes me thankful for my players. I can just tell them the premise of the campaign and get them to show up with characters and I never felt the need to check their sheet or restrict anything. As no one has ever tried to abuse the system.

Though I have run into it more going into stores for events and such.


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I mean, I ask for character sheets in advance just so I can read everything and make sure I know how it works, but tracking down the rules and figuring out the interactions is more or less on me (and I can always ask a player "what exactly are you trying to do?" if it's unclear.)

Seems like you should say "these books are allowed, those aren't" right off the bat, not try to hybridize "core only" and "Free for all" making things in later books in-universe rare, since a lot of the stuff in later books exists to fix problems in the core book (e.g. advanced weapon training) and that stuff shouldn't be rare unless you want to exacerbate those issues.

Plus, shouldn't "spell rarity" (if you want that to be a thing) affect Wizards more than Sorcerers? Wizards more or less have to find written instructions, whereas Sorcerers literally have spells pop into their heads.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

If you read all the OP's posts later in this thread, he notes that his players 'used Hero Lab instead of the books' to make their characters, and all the characters were wrong. The odds of this happening are quite small. I think what happened is that this GM has carried many rules from old editions of D&D (or even old house rules) forward and not noticed they are not true anymore in Pathfinder, creating a lot of house rules that he doesn't realize are house rules. Because he thinks they are the rules as written, he didn't warn his players.


Indeed. I keep thinking that in the Forgotten Realms, I want to say 2E, there were rules detailing which spells were common/uncommon/rare. I keep wondering if the OP has been exposed to something like that.


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I dunno, to me it just sounds like OP has gotten it into their head that the Sorcerer class is overpowered and is now desperately clutching at straws to nerf the crap out of it while keeping up the pretense that it's "just the rules" to their players. At this point, they must have gotten sufficient evidence to accept that their interpretation of the rules is false.
House rules are fine. House rules while knowingly pretending that it's the actual rules is deceptive. House rules while knowingly pretending that it's the actual rules to justify a decision that made a player "quiet [sic] distraught" is just not a nice thing to do.


Makes me wonder how an oracle would fair. Worse spell list, more class features.

Scarab Sages

Just a heads up, you guys are really trolling this guy. Not nice.

I keep getting derailed, so that too.

Archmic wrote:

So while DMing a campaign, a player of mine figured that they'd play a Sorcerer; because they are all powerful or something like that.

So looking over his char sheet everything seemed to be in order until I checked his spell list and found several spells that shouldn't have been there. Which I had him take off of his sheet and replace with legal spells.

What do I consider legal spells for a Sorc? Any spell found on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list in the CORE book.
There is a rule written into the Sorcerer's spell entry that reads as thus:

"These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study."

A common spell is translated as any spell found in the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list in the CRB.

This rule was made to balance out the Sorcerer and Wizard class: Sorcerer can cast more spells per day and don't need to prepare them ahead of time while the Wizard who studies magic has a deeper understanding of how it works and essentially makes the new magic as they gain levels.

I also translate this rule to mean that if a Sorcerer found a spell book with non-core spells in it and studied it, they would then be allowed to gain the non-core spell as a new known spell, once they gained a level.

To help my player out, because he was quiet distraught, is there anything that someone can SHOW me through a link or by being answered by one of the creators themselves where this is not the case, and how they feel about the rule in general, and if there isn't a change in the rule I might become a little more flexible and give him access to an additional book to draw spells from.

Despite some of the wording being a bit too pointed, and some of his reasoning being perhaps inaccurate with regards to the rules, there's only one question in this text: "What do I consider legal spells for a Sorc?" There's no other question here. And they're looking for rules quotes (or comments from the creators, if no rules quotes can be found).

People keep chewing him out for the way he worded it, which is what it is, but they aren't answering the posted question.

And I'll bite, does any one actually know where, in one of the books, it explains where the full list of sorcerer spells is found? CRB has a list, which seems to be written as a stane alone list. The supplements, like ultimate magic have lists, but I don't recall an official tie in.

Is it just sort of assumed, between the CRB and the supplements, that sorcerer lists stack between the CRB and the supplements, or does it directly state this somewhere? Most certainly, a reasonable assumption.


Fair question, Murdock. Found this quickly at the PRD, from the APG, spell lists.

Beyond the spells presented in the Core Rulebook exist countless more mystical discoveries and the secret tricks of spellcasters arcane and divine. The following lists summarize all of the new spells presented in this book, broken down by class. Note that, with the exception of the antipaladin's full spell list, the lists here summarize only new spells from this book.

Bolded the part I think most relevant. I do note that this is not written for Ultimate Magic or other books.

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