Slashing Grace / Swordmaster's Flair


Rules Questions

Lantern Lodge

12 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite.

Swordmaster's Flair (Blue Scarf): The user can spend 1 panache point as a swift action to increase her melee reach with light or one-handed piercing weapons by 5 feet for 1 minute.

Slashing Grace: When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon

Per RAW it looks like Slashing Grace doesn't work with the Blue Scarf for Swordmaster's Flair?


RAW I daresay you're rate. But I don't feel allowing that breaks anything in a homegame.

Lantern Lodge

Long John wrote:
RAW I daresay you're rate. But I don't feel allowing that breaks anything in a homegame.

This is for PFS so I wanted to make sure. I was hoping there was some errata that I wasn't aware of because it seems like an oversight to me.

Also, when browsing the forums for an answer I came across multiple threads suggesting the item for builds that used Slashing Grace...


You're in the clear, per the ACG FAQ

Quote:
Swordmaster’s flair should have a sentence added to it that says “Carrying a swordmaster’s flair counts as having that hand free for the purpose of abilities that require a free hand, though you still can’t hold another object in that hand.”

Lantern Lodge

PossibleCabbage wrote:

You're in the clear, per the ACG FAQ

Quote:
Swordmaster’s flair should have a sentence added to it that says “Carrying a swordmaster’s flair counts as having that hand free for the purpose of abilities that require a free hand, though you still can’t hold another object in that hand.”

Unfortunately not. From the looks of it, Slashing Grace is only applicable to feats or class abilities. Since Swordmaster's Flair is an item I don't think it works.


kaisc006 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

You're in the clear, per the ACG FAQ

Quote:
Swordmaster’s flair should have a sentence added to it that says “Carrying a swordmaster’s flair counts as having that hand free for the purpose of abilities that require a free hand, though you still can’t hold another object in that hand.”
Unfortunately not. From the looks of it, Slashing Grace is only applicable to feats or class abilities. Since Swordmaster's Flair is an item I don't think it works.

I believe you're reading the FAQ wrong. The FAQ says add to the item text that says "your hand still counts as free for purposes other than holding something in it". So when the Slashing Grace clause checks if your using TWF, or Flurry, or your off hand is otherwise occupied the item itself says "your hand counts as free" (i.e. unoccupied) so slashing (etc.) grace works fine. It's no different from how bucklers don't shut down slashing grace because of a property of the item itself.

Grand Lodge

@PossibleCabbage You're missing his point. Slashing Grace says that it's treated as a piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require a 1 handed weapon.

Swordmaster's Flair is an item that requires a piercing weapon, not a feat or class ability.

The Concordance

Does a Swordmaster Flair leave your hand open for Slashing Grace? Yes, no one is arguing it doesn't. Covered by the FAQ.

Does Slashing Grace allow a slashing weapon to be used with a Swordmaster Flair Blue Scarf? Contended. I'm thinking no because items are not class features or feats.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Pedantic reading is pedantic.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I mean, it's not exactly pedantic. They just don't work together as written.

It's probably just an oversight, but right now they don't.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
They just don't work together as written I read it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Azara Emberkin wrote:
Pedantic reading is pedantic.

Well hello there, pot.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Azara Emberkin wrote:
Pedantic reading is pedantic.

This is the Rules Forum. Welcome! ;)

Grand Lodge

Azara Emberkin wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
They just don't work together as written I read it.

So how should I have read it differently? I just stated that Slashing Grace says it makes the weapon be treated as 1-handed piercing for feats and class abilities and Blue Swordmaster's Flair is an item. Like, I literally just stated a fact. There's not multiple ways to interpret that.

And I really don't understand why you're being so blatantly hostile? Did I inadvertently offend you some how?

Edit: Ah, Nefreet. I didn't recognize you behind your alias. I see now that this would invalidate part of your current build on that character. Guessing that's the reason for the hostility. Sorry I offended you.

Liberty's Edge

hmm I guess the Blue scarf version of the flair doesn't work. but the other 3 versions don't call for a piercing weapon. Guess that's why they added that last sentence to the FAQ

Sovereign Court

Jurassic Pratt is correct - they don't work together, and that's probably an oversight.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Jurassic Pratt is correct - they don't work together, and that's probably an oversight.

They would work together for some weapons. For example the Dagger, Gladius, and Wakizashi all qualify for Slashing Grace and are also Piercing.

Grand Lodge

Right, I should've said they don't work together for a Slashing Weapon that is not also a Piercing Weapon.

Lantern Lodge

Should we FAQ this? It's so minor but I consider the Swordmaster's Flair a "must-have" for Swashbucklers and we all agree it looks like an oversight... Plus I'd like for my Qadiran scimitar wielding swashbuckler to use one ;)

Sovereign Court

I think we should - I'm fairly sure it's supposed to work, there are no balance concerns, and it improves the play experience if it does work.

Lantern Lodge

FAQ'd!

Sovereign Court

Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Sorry I offended you.

That's quite a leap of logic. No offense has been taken (and I did not interpret your post as a personal attack).

I think if anything my posting history shows that I am more annoyed with the mentality and oxymoron of "rules as written".

Nothing about this FAQ invalidates my build. I read the Swordsmaster's Flair as working just fine with Slashing Grace.

And I'll often post with aliases when the topic at hand is directly related to that character (my Necromancer for Undead threads, my Gunslinger for ammunition threads, and so on). You'll see that the majority of this alias's posts are in Swashbuckler-related threads (other than her PbP activity).

Grand Lodge

There was supposed to be an "if" in front of the I in the that post. It got cut out somehow.

Also, you're absolutely right. The FAQ doesn't invalidate anything about that build at all. The wording of Slashing Grace and The Blue Swordmaster's Flair does. The Blue Flair says it requires a light or 1-handed piercing weapon and Slashing Grace only makes your weapon count as that for feats and class features. If you can show me how a Swordmaster's Flair is a feat or class feature then it would work fine, but I'm pretty sure it's an item.

Anyways, I agree with the sentiment in this thread that it's probably an oversight and not intended. So let's hit that FAQ button and maybe get a Campaign Clarification at the least.


"Slashing Grace: When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon"

What happens if we stop this sentence as follows?
"Slashing Grace: When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon."

Now it works for traits, feats, class features, magic items, spells, and bypassing DR.

Slashing Grace would then also act as if you have Weapon Versatility for free in bypassing DR [which is probably too much and makes Weapon Versatility largely unnecessarily for what is likely the most commonly-used weapon type].

Weapon Versatility
Type: Combat
Description: You can use your favored weapons in unconventional ways.
Prerequisites: Feat: Weapon Focus, Base Attack Bonus: 1
Benefit: When wielding a weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you can shift your grip as a swift action so that your weapon deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage instead of the damage type normally dealt by that weapon. You may switch back to the weapon's normal damage type or another damage type as a swift action. If your base attack bonus is +5 or higher, using this feat is a free action instead.

What happens if we update this sentence as follows?
"Slashing Grace: When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon (except for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction)."

Sovereign Court

Rather than this page-eating verbiage about "light- and one-handed piercing weapons", they should have just made a definition of Swashbuckling Weapons, which starts out with those weapons.

* Slashing Grace would just add that weapon to the Swashbuckling Weapons category.
* The Flair would just require a Swashbuckling Weapon to function.

And you can just hang all sorts of things on that definition (archetypes that change the set of weapons, weapon enchantments that work on swashbuckling weapons etc.)

Sovereign Court

Necro because I would also like to see this FAQ'd.


ZᴇɴN wrote:
Necro because I would also like to see this FAQ'd.

FAQ

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The FAQ still doesn't help, because it only clarifies that the hand holding the swordmaster's flair is considered free, the main contention in this question is that this one particular Swordmaster's Flair states that it works with light and one-handed piercing weapons, while Slashing Grace allows slashing weapons. The part about allowing the item to work with the new damage types still hasn't been answered, as far as I know, because Slashing Grace only calls out feats and class features, not items.

Sovereign Court

There is no need for clarification here. Slashing Grace does not get around the Blue Scarf’s piercing weapon restriction.

What people want is a change to the existing rules to increase the power of their characters. Admit that is what you are after, and ask for the rules change. Trying to claim it is not clear, etc... just adds to the noise.


Since it only relates to martial classes, why not just let people choose if they wanted to use DEX or STR for their attack and damage? No feats required, because spending feats on converting to use dex is dumb. Still swinging a sword? Yep. Who cares what you use, it's just a sword. All these stupid feats just use dexterity instead of strength, why not let the character choose with his stats? Oh, you pumped up your dexterity, probably want to use that for your CMB/CMD and attack and damage, cool, do that, level one, go.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Primarily because other than attack rolls and damage, Strength has very little going for it. Dex already modifies your defenses, reflex save, and a fair number of skills, strength..just does the carrying capacity, and maybe a skill or two. Not really that impressive. So I can see why it needs a tradeoff, just maybe not as steep as it currently is to get dex to attack and damage.


Just make STR better, or get rid of it, combine it with CON, and be done with it. Or just let people freely choose at character creation. There will still be people who choose strength and heavy armor. People who want to use dex simply can. Easy peasy. And I'm not talking homebrew stuff, I'm talking about fundamentally unf*cking parts of this game that are in fact seriously f*cked.

Sovereign Court

The way to fix a problem in games is not to power up the weaker side. It is to tone down the more powerful one. Otherwise the inevitable power creep just happens even sooner and ends up being worse.


Just remove the shackles placed on the martial classes. You don't have to power the weaker side up, just simply stop stifling creativity and let people play the character they want to play without asinine feat taxes and absolutely ridiculous prerequisites.

They already tax you a feat for every step you want to take in combat, with it taking three feats if heaven forbid you want to take a step AND attack, what?! Because no martial fighter in the history of melee combat has ever moved and attacked at once, that never happens, and is clearly outside the realm of possibilities in a fantasy game.

Top tier classes get stuff like 50D6+50 Omnicide. Don't take that away, I bet that's awesome and fun. But as a not top tier martial, let me have a chance to close the distance and fight. Let me as a martial choose if I want to use dexterity or strength simply by making it my primary stat.

Agile Maneuvers, Weapon Finesse, Slashing/Piercing/Starry Grace, they are all useless and insulting. Most races have a +2 modifier, whatever you put that in is what you use, or whatever. Have a strength weapon group and a dexterity weapon group, have archetypes that change weapons from one group to another. Something, anything else other than you need a 17 dex and improved two weapon fighting for a shield feat, or 8 feats to have dex to damage, and 25 more feats because you still want to be able to take a step in combat, possibly even take a step and attack. Oh my.


The King In Yellow wrote:
There is no need for clarification here. Slashing Grace does not get around the Blue Scarf’s piercing weapon restriction.

This.

Slashing Grace only changes weapon type for purposes of resolving class abilities and feats.

It does not change weapon type for purposes of resolving other items.

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