Spiral Rapier Proficiency Question


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

So the Spiral Rapier is a new exotic weapon from Adventurer's Armory 2. The text of it is as follows:

Spiral Rapier:
This rapier like weapon has a thicker blade than normal, which is shaped into a corkscrewing spiral of sharpened edges. These edges can catch enemy weapons, making it ideal for disarming
or parrying. You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply
your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to
attack rolls with a spiral rapier sized for you, even though
it isn’t a light weapon. You can’t wield a spiral rapier
in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your
Strength modifier to its damage. Any effects that
apply to rapiers also apply to a spiral rapier.

So my question is regarding the bolded portion. Rogues and Elves are called out as specifically being proficient with rapiers. Wouldn't this be considered an effect that applies to rapiers, effectively granting them proficiency with it?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I don't think so. Proficiency has an effect, but is not itself an effect.


Also of interest is whether an Inspired Blade Swashbuckler can use the new weapon.


So its a rapier with some disarm-capable effects?

Grand Lodge

So still looking for a rules basis for whether proficiency would be considered an effect that applies to a weapon.


If proficiency with rapiers gave you proficiency with spiral rapiers, then the spiral rapier would be a martial weapon. Proficiency with martial weapons includes rapiers after all. It's an exotic weapon, therefore proficiency with rapiers does not carry over to the spiral rapier.

Grand Lodge

See, I disagree with that logic. Martial Weapon Proficiency isn't an effect that specifically applies to a rapier. It effects a large group of things. Rapier proficiency however, seems to me to clearly be an effect that applies to rapiers.

For me the logical order would be this:
1. Am I proficient in martial weapons? Yes.
2. Is the Rapier a martial weapon? Yes.
3. Is the Spiral Rapier a Rapier? Yes.
4. Is the Spiral Rapier a Martial Weapon? No.
Thus it would not apply.

On the otherhand, for specifc rapier proficiency:
1. Am I listed as proficient in Rapiers specifically? Yes.
2. Is a Spiral Rapier a Rapier? Yes.
Thus it would apply.

But maybe my logic is flawwed. I'd like to get a few takes on the matter.


I agree with Jurassic Pratt. Does that matter? No.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

As always, a disclaimer: I am not invested with any official rules authority. I just wrote it; it's Paizo's now.

That said... the language these weapons use is very brief, and doesn't spend a lot of words on clarification. While there's definitely room for either interpretation, I'm inclined to lean towards the interpretation laid out in Jurassic Pratt's most recent post. So... good news for elves and rogues.

shaventalz wrote:
Also of interest is whether an Inspired Blade Swashbuckler can use the new weapon.

Well, I certainly hope so (although they'll still have to become proficient with it). Interactions like that were the point of that bit of text. ^_^

(Same for the cutlass and scimitar-specific options such as Dervish Dance, for the record.)


Isabella Lee is now the goddess of my Inspired Blade

Grand Lodge

Thanks Isabelle! It's always good to hear the author's opinion on the matter. I'll definitely run it as such in my games.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Spiral Rapier Proficiency Question All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.