:D I know how to do these! "Tanking" in Pathfinder usually ends up as being a juggy and being such a threat they CAN'T ignore you.
Chosen One Archetype (allows for double deal via Law on Paws)
Feats:
1: Fey Foundling/ Shield Focus (heavy steel)
3: Shield Brace
5: Power Attack
7: Greater Mercy
9: (Whatever)
15+2, 12, 14, 10, 9, 15
Recommend taking the Heart of Fey alternate racial trait.
This feat can help with drawing out enemies, as can this feat.
When it comes to tanking, you have to consider your DM and how they like to run enemies. Some DMs run intelligent enemies who know better than to allow high AC enemies to draw all the aggression while their allies are slaughtered by your squishy friends.
Best ways to tank would be to put large threatening numbers of damage on the board while boasting moderate to low AC making you an easy target for the enemies to attack. Then you just have to worry about sustaining health, something the paladin class does better than any other class in the game thanks to Lay on Hands.
Using your shield as a primary weapon can be fun, I recommend using Improved Shield Bash and using your weapon two-handed. The Bashing enchantment automatically turns your shield into a +1 weapon and ups your damage dice, which is really nice.
there's really not much you can do to "control" people with a paladin like this. The enemies should just kill your friends and ignore you for last.
How are you planning on doing protection?
Shield Brace looks like an awesome feat.
I can't find Heart of the Fey. What does it do, or where is it book wise?
It's in Legacy of the First World. Trades out the extra skill rank as a human for perception and knowledge (nature) as class skills, along with a racial +1 to will and reflex saves.
Also Halberd is the non-reach polearm I usually use with this build.
Also Halberd is the non-reach polearm I usually use with this build.What are your thoughts about reach vs non reach weapons? Why is Halberd usually used?
Trying to understand the mindset, not questioning the advice.
Entirely personal preference. I prefer non-reach to reach, excepting in the case of monks, where I threaten adjacent anyways. Less odd things to fret about, which means more paladin & cat arse-kicking action.
Entirely personal preference. I prefer non-reach to reach, excepting in the case of monks, where I threaten adjacent anyways. Less odd things to fret about, which means more paladin & cat arse-kicking action.That makes sense.
3 more questions
1. What familiar do you recommend?
2. What route would you take feat wise after 11? Critical? More shield feats?
3. What kind of equipment would you aim for? Plate? Breastplate? Shield spikes?
1) Entirely personal preference/flavor. Initiative boosters (rabbit) are always nice, as are any that raise skills that are important to your concept.
2) I would go Weapon Focus, and then try and nab Ultimate Mercy. Also Take Oath of Vengeance.
3) Fullplate, and there's a mithril heavy shield that has no ACP, allowing for Shield Brace w/o a penalty.
What I would do for his build is grab combat reflexes and stand still at first level so you can pin the enemies in place, then build toward shield slam, or straight bull rush, so you can push them back on your turn. I'd prefer spells slam, since you could full attack with your main hand before hitting them with the shield to bull rush.
Bloodragers make good tanks. Arcane bloodline can be good at evading attacks using its ability to blur while raging. And aberrant can cover a wide area and grab a tumor familiar that has the protector archetype, to make you the ultimate damage sponge. You do need to be prepared for playstyle changes throughout the character though. At low level it's all about the AC, so get the best armor and shield you can. At later levels, you will be able to rely on spells to help you avoid more attacks, so don't need to focus as much on your AC.
Skald can make a pretty good tank. It can wear decent armor while drawing attention/threat due to its song. And it has some pretty good defensive spells. And if you don't trade out the strength bonus song for an archetype, you can get some of the best fast healing in the game with the Skald's Vigor feat.
What I would do for his build is grab combat reflexes and stand still at first level so you can pin the enemies in place, then build toward shield slam, or straight bull rush, so you can push them back on your turn. I'd prefer spells slam, since you could full attack with your main hand before hitting them with the shield to bull rush.Would that require Two Weapon Fighting feats to do?
Off the top of my head,I believe shield slam requires two weapon fighting. The straight bull rush build would not.
Relevant to my interests.
Convinced one of the groups I play with to start a Rise of the Runelords game. I plan on being a Hospitaler Paladin, so will be the main healer. What I want to try to do is also be the main tank.
Still need to figure out all the details however.
EDIT: Something important to take note of is that the Pathfinder Paladin uses Charisma as his/her casting stat. Not Wisdom. It's a change that might go unnoticed to a DnD veteran.
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Yeah, Fey Foundling is really too good. It results in an alarmingly large numbers of paladins having been raised by fey.
I honestly wish they would change that feat because it's way too many people take it with paladins. I don't know that I've ever seen any other class else take that feat.
I honestly wish they would change that feat because it's way too many people take it with paladins. I don't know that I've ever seen any other class else take that feat.
Pei zin oracles probably will take it. ;)
There's also a bloodrager archetype that eventually gets LoHs that might want it.
Using your shield as a primary weapon can be fun, I recommend using Improved Shield Bash and using your weapon two-handedAre you saying carrying nothing else but a shield? How would that build look like? Just shield feats :)
When I built it, he came out a lot more 'Batman' than most people would like.
I played a disgraced noble who discarded his family lineage in order to take up the mantle of this character concept I had called the White Guardian, an order of paladins names them to go out and do paladinly things, following the rules laid out in Inner Sea Intrigue for any class to gain a Masked Persona like the vigilante. To that end I had a feat called Convincing Persona from the same book. You can probably skip all that. He was a Chosen One paladin with Fey Foundling representing his magical familiar who was sort of his 'guide' to help him, who happened to contain the spirit of the White Guardian before him whom he killed as part of the backstory.
In practice, the build was amazing since the team needed an AC monster.
I took Power Attack and Improved Shield Bash for combat, but I was also VMC fighter and took some of the Advanced Weapon/Armor Training options as well to get myself the ability to craft my own armor (and subsequently also my weapon since Bashing turned my shield into a +1 weapon).
If you're considering Shield Brace, I recommend the nodachi, as it's the best weapon in the game for nonreach two-handed weapons. And for some reason it qualifies as a pole arm.
If you want to tank as a paladin, I recommend going a slightly more offensive route to do it. Being a defensive powerhouse is awesome when they're attacking you, but it's nigh worthless if you're not being attacked.
With the feats Power Attack and Corgunon Smash, and a high Intimidate skill, you can debuff like a champ. Every power attack you make allows a free intimidate check to Shaken your enemy (-2 to attack, skill checks, all saves and ability checks). -2 to attack, -2 to spellcraft, and -2 to Fort/Ref/Will is absolutely devastating, and you can do it every single time you hit. Paladins are 4/4 BAB, so you'll get lots of chances every round.
Also, get the "Targeted" Mercy for your LoH at level 6. It places a Sanctuary on your target until that target attacks again. Anyone attempting to attack or cast spells on your Sanctuary target have to make a Will Save or the attack/spell fails. You can even Sanctuary yourself if you get into trouble. This is awesome for saving your group members.
Furthermore, get a weapon with a high threat critical range (18-20) and get improved critical at level 8, so your critical range becomes 15-20. Then get Greater Bull Rush and Bull Rush Strike. Every time you critically strike, you get a free bull rush. And with Greater Bull Rush, your allies gain AoO's. If you do this route, talk one of your allies into getting Combat Reflexes. With Improved Critical, GBR and BRS, you can be a combat controller and excellent damage assistance for your allies.
Extra Mercy, Greater Mercy and Extra Lay on Hands are also staples for this build.
Consider your version of Divine Bond at level 5 to be the Agathion Bond (better healing) or the Angelic Bond (better protection for your group vs Evil).
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Str = Cha > Con > Int=Wis > Dex
You could even just go Divine Bond with your weapon and imbue Defending (+enchantment to AC) and Keen (imp crit threat range) enchantments through the lower levels, and later you can get the Speed Enchantment at lvl 9, which gives you another full BAB strike per round if you want.
I do not think Oath of Vengeance is worth it. Channel Positive Energy is too good for both AoE Healing and vs. Undead. Also, you would lose Aura of Justice. Aura of Justice gives your entire party Smite Evil, which IS the Paladin's class-defining feature.
Smite Evil is +Cha to both Hit and AC, and your Paladin level as bonus damage. This damage is doubled on the first hit vs Undead, Dragons and Outsiders.
Before you ever use Smite Evil, always cast Eagle's Splendor for an additional 4 Charisma.
So, if you have a 22 Charisma after casting Eagle's splendor, and you're a level 11 Paladin, you could give your entire party a +6 to Hit, +6 to AC and +11 to damage.
Smite Evil lasts until the thing dies or you go to sleep.
I have a Paladin in my party right now and he's level 8 and using a fauchard weapon, so it's a 1d10 (18-20, x2) with10ft reach and trip.
So he's got a 24 strength and an 18 charisma with all his items. He casts eagle's splendor, divine favor, divine bond, and smite evil, and ends up with a +27 to hit, 31 AC and +33 dmg vs his smite evil target, and a +21 to hit, 25 AC and +25 dmg vs anything else.
If he critically strikes a smite evil target, it's basically 66 + 1d10(x2) dmg. Absolutely unreal damage.
You could consider a Bat'Leth for a weapon too. It's 2d4 dmg but it's 19-20/x3 critical, and that becomes the money maker when you get Imp Critical or enchant Keen on your weapon with Divine Bond, and then get a critical hit on Smite Evil :D.
Using that same level 8 paladin's stats, you're looking at a 99 + 2d4(x3) dmg on a single crit. Once you have GBR and BRS, you cause all that damage and get a free bull rush and intimidate check, and your allies immediately get AOO's and you still get your iterative attacks :)
The only drawback is that it takes up a feat slot for Exotic weapon to use a Bat'Leth.
+2 str from Giant's Belt and +2 str from an Ioun Stone is 12,000g. You can easily get these by lvl 8, probably much sooner if you want too.
For 20 pt buy, I'd suggest 16/14/14/10/10/10. I personally dislike dumping stats, so modify as you see fit. You can start with 16/16 str/cha or 18/14 str/cha with the +2 ability from human.
If you start with a 14 cha, plan on getting an Ioun Stone +2 Cha at some point to help your smites, saves and intimidates. 8,000g.
Traits: Seeker (Perception is class skill and +1 to Perception - Perception is not a class skill for Paladins and it is hands down your most rolled skill), and Omen (Intimidate is not a class skill for Paladins, with Omen it becomes a class skill and a +1 to Intimidate - also, once per day as a swift, use intimidate to demoralize). In lieu of either of these, consider Fate's Favored (synergizes with Divine Favor) or Heirloom Weapon (+2 on Bull Rush and +1 to hit with AO's) or Ancestral Weapon (free masterwork weapon and +1 to hit) and Reactionary (+2 Initiative).
Lvl1. Power attack, Fey Foundling
Lvl3. Corgunon Smash
Lvl5. Imp Bull Rush
Lvl6. Targeted Mercy
Lvl7. Greater Bull Rush
Lvl9. Bull Rush Strike
Lvl11. Imp Critical, Leadership, Extra Lay on Hands or Greater Mercy
Lvl13. Extra Mercy (all mercies are now available at lvl 12)
Lvl15-19 anything you want :)
Also, consider Intimidating Prowess somewhere in the later levels. It will add your Str Mod to Intimidate checks in addition to your Cha Mod. I say later levels because trying to Intimidate in late game can get kinda tricky and you might need some extra umph sometimes.
Drop Fey Foundling for Exotic weapon Bat'Leth if you want more dmg on crits. Fey Foundling is too good for tanking though, and it remains effective throughout your entire campaign.
There's a couple items that can help with Intimidate too.
Circlet of Persuasion gives a +3 competence bonus on all Charisma based checks. 4,500 gp.
Hag's Shabble, 3400g +2 bonus
Holy Mask of the Living God, 2100g +2 bonus
Maw of the Wyrm, 18000g +4 bonus
Dead Mans Headband, 3600g +2 bonus
Lion Cloak, 12000gp +2 bonus
I have a Paladin in my party right now and he's level 8 and using a fauchard weapon, so it's a 1d10 (18-20, x2) with10ft reach and trip.
So he's got a 24 strength and an 18 charisma with all his items. He casts eagle's splendor, divine favor, divine bond, and smite evil, and ends up with a +27 to hit, 31 AC and +33 dmg vs his smite evil target, and a +21 to hit, 25 AC and +25 dmg vs anything else.
And to clarify, that's +27/+22 to hit vs smited target, +21/+16 vs. everything else. He's an absolute monster :)
Actually, this Paladin in my group went full Cleave route. He's got Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Cleave, Cleaving Finish and Improved Cleaving Finish, and next level I think he's going to get Furious Focus for another +3 to hit. He's an absolute ginsu blender of Holy vengeance :)
He can smite each new round as a swift action before he actually makes his attack/move for the round, and he gets 3 Smites per day right now. He can swift Smite Evil each round, and by round 3, he's cleaving 3 targets with Smite Evil, and everything else within his range is getting absolutely mutilated.
Off the top of my head,I believe shield slam requires two weapon fighting. The straight bull rush build would not.Would you have a light shield? What kind of weapon?
Or would you have a reach 2h weapon?
Depends on your goal, I personally tend to lean towards a heavy shield with a light weapon, I like the kukri, gkadius, or spiked gauntlet for this, again depending on what you're looking for. These aren't the most optimal choices, and by RAW your weapon would be your off hand, to avoid penalties, which may cause your gm to argue you have to use iterative attacks with your shield.
Take a look at the Holy Shield paladin archetype, especially in combination with a 1 or 3 level dip in to Tower Shield Specialist fighter.
With a +5 tower shield and the shield focus feat you can provide a +10 shield bonus to AC to all allies around you as well as a +10 cover bonus to AC to one specific ally. You can also reduce all damage that your allies take from a single evil source by half.
There's also a style feat, Mobile Bulwark Style, that will allow you to set the shield as a move action, which is a massive benefit to action economy.
Yeah, Fey Foundling is really too good. It results in an alarmingly large numbers of paladins having been raised by fey.You should see how many outcast scar covered half orcs suddenly realize things are going to be ok and that fates favoured them.
** spoiler omitted **
Considering the sheer volume of adventurer's who grew up getting bullied, I wonder if this should serve as a cautionary tale to childhood bullies (i.e. the person you beat up will eventually have 12 wizard levels and a grudge) or encouragement of such (i.e. the person you beat up will eventually have 12 wizard levels and will save the kingdom, but may have forgotten about you).
see all the (hopeful) parents of paladin's send their kids off to Fey Boarding school where they can learn all the bad things about chaos to give them the resolve to fight for order.
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Cornugon Smash needs 6 ranks on Intimidate, that means I have to take it at level 7 since at level 5 I can have at max 5 ranks in intimidate.
Or am I reading the rules wrong?
No, you are correct. Re-structure the build like this:
Lvl1. Power attack, Fey Foundling
Lvl3. Imp Bull Rush
Lvl5. Extra Lay on Hands (+2 LoH per day) or Greater Mercy (if no conditions are healed by Mercies, cure an additional 1d6)
Lvl6. Targeted Mercy
Lvl7. Cornugon Smash
Lvl9. Bull Rush Strike
Lvl11. Imp Critical, Leadership, Greater Bull Rush, Extra Lay on Hands or Greater Mercy
Lvl13. Extra Mercy (all mercies are now available at lvl 12)
Lvl15-19 anything you want :)
Or something like this :)
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This is my buddy's Paladin's planned build from the campaign I'm in right now.
Lvl1. Power attack, Cleave
Lvl3. Cleaving Finish, Fatigued Mercy
Lvl5. Great Cleave
Lvl6. Targeted Mercy
Lvl7. Improved Cleaving Finish
Lvl9. Leadership, Poisoned Mercy
Lvl11. Greater Mercy
Lvl12. Ensorcelled Mercy
Lvl13. Ultimate Mercy
Lvl15. Extra Lay on Hands, Cursed Mercy
Lvl17. Extra Mercy: Diseased Mercy
Lvl18. Confused Mercy
Lvl19. Extra Lay on Hands
At level 8, this guy is already a buzzsaw with Improved Cleaving Finish. And at level 20, his LoH is going to be 10d6 (+1d6 if no conditions are removed), and he'll have ~18 uses per day (excluding items) to remove fatigue, apply sanctuary, neutralize poison, dispel magic, remove curse, remove disease, and remove confusion. With Ultimate Mercy, he can expend 10 LoH to resurrect. With capstone, he heals the full amount with LoH.