It seems the topic has shifted from "moderation and trolling" to general discussion of forum value/implications. Continuing with that flow -
Forums will exist for Pathfinder/Paizo products regardless of whether Paizo opted to discontinue them here. There are lots of 3rd party sites that get plenty of traffic for game discussion, and that alone demonstrates that there remains interest and investment. I don't think forums are going anywhere anytime soon, regardless of who hosts them.
I would imagine Paizo finds value in the direct feedback, but as stated correctly above - most forumers are diehards and do not represent the community at large. True feedback for businesses is how far from the red each endeavor brings them, regardless of some more vocal opinions on a forum.
Personally I find a degree of comfort in these forums hosted by the company who's products and practices we discuss therein. Maybe that's an intangible, but it's something.
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I also agree that if Paizo nuked thier forums they'd be just fine. There's a lot of toxic self-entitlement that goes on on forums and I think most of the people who are actually playing and enjoying the game are doing so without the benefit of the forums. You really see the toxicity during open playtests. There's no way these people would speak to the developers the way they do in real space as they do here.
I believe you are mistaken. Having a company forum where the developers can interact with their base is an incredible advantage to a splintered community which stays on their own small forums and only talks to their small selected groups of people.
That only few people ever go to the forums is more due most players not having the same investment in the game as the people who take the time to browse forums.
And that isn't even to mention that the forums are an incredible resource of information on rules and the setting. You won't find a collection of campaign journals available on social media, at the same location you can find entire sub-forums dedicated to individual adventure paths.
The idea that social media could replace a well maintained forum as a fandom resource is ludicrous.
I also agree that if Paizo nuked thier forums they'd be just fine. There's a lot of toxic self-entitlement that goes on on forums and I think most of the people who are actually playing and enjoying the game are doing so without the benefit of the forums. You really see the toxicity during open playtests. There's no way these people would speak to the developers the way they do in real space as they do here.I believe you are mistaken. Having a company forum where the developers can interact with their base is an incredible advantage to a splintered community which stays on their own small forums and only talks to their small selected groups of people.
That only few people ever go to the forums is more due most players not having the same investment in the game as the people who take the time to browse forums.
And that isn't even to mention that the forums are an incredible resource of information on rules and the setting. You won't find a collection of campaign journals available on social media, at the same location you can find entire sub-forums dedicated to individual adventure paths.
The idea that social media could replace a well maintained forum as a fandom resource is ludicrous.
Okay.
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It seems the topic has shifted from "moderation and trolling" to general discussion of forum value/implications. Continuing with that flow -
Forums will exist for Pathfinder/Paizo products regardless of whether Paizo opted to discontinue them here. There are lots of 3rd party sites that get plenty of traffic for game discussion, and that alone demonstrates that there remains interest and investment. I don't think forums are going anywhere anytime soon, regardless of who hosts them.
I would imagine Paizo finds value in the direct feedback, but as stated correctly above - most forumers are diehards and do not represent the community at large. True feedback for businesses is how far from the red each endeavor brings them, regardless of some more vocal opinions on a forum.
Personally I find a degree of comfort in these forums hosted by the company who's products and practices we discuss therein. Maybe that's an intangible, but it's something.
Given that some of those third party sites are just shy of openly hostile towards Pathfinder, the transfer of forum discussion to them would not be beneficial.
Furthermore...Paizo's messageboard system is pretty intertwined with there webstore and their subscriptions. I have no clue what percentage of sales are via subscriptions, but I think its quite a bit. WoTC and other companies maybe don't have that particular issue to deal with.
I don't follow facebook, twitter, or any of that other garbage. If the forum dies here more then likely so would my interest to this company.
I won't use any of those "social" media either.
Also, social media are slowly and surely killing forums. It's only a matter of time before Paizo throws in the towel and follows the footsteps of Bioware and WotC.
I sincerely hope Paizo won´t do that, i would consider it a mistake.
Currently no social media can take over the service a forum like this gives. It would also give a lot of things which Paizo now has control over to different hands, something that a lot of people definately would not welcome. Protection and privacy of data is one thing there which is very sensitive here i think.That begins with the PbP community, but does not end there.
Futureland™ is a thing, i work there, but for Paizo it would currently not make sense i think. At least not short of a complete restructuring of the company. Futureland™ is not necessarily about Twitter, Facebook and sociak media alone, but rather about things in the background the unsuspecting average online user will never know about.
Also this Futureland™ comment really made me laugh^^
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Maybe I'm misremembering but diddent WOTC bring forums or something similair back recently?
EDIT
Nope there they are Dndbeyond forums (Okay not managed or maintained by wizards directly rather the ones creating the Beyond toolset but with offical backing.)
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I would hate to see the forums closed. The GM threads for the various Pathfinder modules, adventures and scenarios are an invaluable resource.
Let's just all focus on getting along and helping each other out.
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First off, there has been no proposal by Paizo to kill their forums. On the contrary, they have brought Dean Ludwig in, and the tech team* has made great strides recently to improve forum stability and usability.
As such, I believe this to be a non-issue.
Paizo understands that there are multiple kinds of feedback out there. Forums allow for more long-form posting with a greater community memory. Social media is important for them too. Getting the buzz and being where the people are... That's also important.
So they're going to have both.
Paizo has said multiple times that they don't want volunteer moderators. That's a paid job. But we can all do what we can to make the forums a more positive place. Be the change you want to see. Respond to the conversations that are thoughtful. Provide clarity and consideration in your own writing. Be a friendly voice, and assume that first time brusque posters are just having a bad day instead of snapping right back at them.
If people are not posting in a civil manner, sometimes it's okay to politely call them on it with a gentle reminder. The key to doing this without causing a flamewar is to address the behavior, not the personality. I will sometimes say something like: "Hey guys. You're making great points, but can we do this without name calling, please?" Then I will do a calm and on topic discussion of whatever is the current subject of discussion. To tone down a particularly snippy thread that has good content, I will sometimes make a summary post of everyone's positions (but without all the grar.) Then I will point out our common ground.
These are small things, but I believe they have an impact in the sub forums I frequent on here!
Hmm
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* Chris, Erik, Dean, and other staff that I do not know. Thank you!
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* Chris, Erik, Dean, and other staff that I do not know. Thank you!
Lissa and Gary. :)
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Just to reiterate what Deathquaker and Hmmm have said: A positive attitude really does go a long way to make forums a better place for everyone...
Assume people who are being negative are just having a bad day.
Assume that people who are wrong about a matter of fact are simply mistaken and have no ill intent.
Assume that people who have a different opinion about the game are entitled to play it as they (and their friends) see fit. There is no "wrongbadfun."
If someone is trolling or has posted something racist/sexist/offensive, flag and move on.
And if a thread is pushing your buttons, disengage and hide it.
That said, I do still think another body at Paizo dedicated to forum modetation would be a good addition.
Given that some of those third party sites are just shy of openly hostile towards Pathfinder, the transfer of forum discussion to them would not be beneficial.
That, I cannot disagree with.
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Also, social media are slowly and surely killing forums. It's only a matter of time before Paizo throws in the towel and follows the footsteps of Bioware and WotC.
Late to the discussion, but I'm going to disagree with this. Twenty years ago, Geocities was cutting-edge social media. Ten years ago, it was MySpace and LiveJournal. Today, it's Facebook and Twitter. How long do you think they'll last? I recently saw a post by John Scalzi about why he owns his own site instead of using something like DreamWidth or Facebook to interact with readers, and it basically boiled down to stability. He'd started the site in the late 90s, and if he hadn't owned it he'd be on his third or fourth move by now.
That, I think, is why Bioware and WotC are being at least somewhat shortsighted, and/or indicating what they think of their users' contributions and comments. I will grant that I'm a bit biased, in that I do a lot of PbP on the boards here. The current configuration of the forums has two major advantages for me: 1) so far most of the Paizo site hasn't been blocked at work, and 2) the previous posts are readily accessible.
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Also, social media are slowly and surely killing forums. It's only a matter of time before Paizo throws in the towel and follows the footsteps of Bioware and WotC.Late to the discussion, but I'm going to disagree with this. Twenty years ago, Geocities was cutting-edge social media. Ten years ago, it was MySpace and LiveJournal. Today, it's Facebook and Twitter. How long do you think they'll last? I recently saw a post by John Scalzi about why he owns his own site instead of using something like DreamWidth or Facebook to interact with readers, and it basically boiled down to stability. He'd started the site in the late 90s, and if he hadn't owned it he'd be on his third or fourth move by now.
That, I think, is why Bioware and WotC are being at least somewhat shortsighted, and/or indicating what they think of their users' contributions and comments. I will grant that I'm a bit biased, in that I do a lot of PbP on the boards here. The current configuration of the forums has two major advantages for me: 1) so far most of the Paizo site hasn't been blocked at work, and 2) the previous posts are readily accessible.
GeoCities, MySpace and Gleemax all came before the era of everybody having access to the Internet, all the time, through their phones, with the added perk of being able to shoot pics and record video. We're in the mobile era, social media got Trump elected, and Paizo.com didn't get the memo. I can understand why - the customer base is notoriously technologically conservative - and likely most of hits on the website are still PC-based - but it's a matter of time.
WotC ditched forums and 5E is doing fantastic, so is M:tG. Turns out, you don't need to shepherd a community in order to sell p'n'p RPGs or CCGs - people will sort each other out on their own using other venues.
GeoCities, MySpace and Gleemax all came before the era of everybody having access to the Internet, all the time, through their phones, with the added perk of being able to shoot pics and record video. We're in the mobile era, social media got Trump elected, and Paizo.com didn't get the memo. I can understand why - the customer base is notoriously technologically conservative - and likely most of hits on the website are still PC-based - but it's a matter of time.
I wanted to say pretty much this same thing but you said it better and much kinder than I would have. I'm not a young man (I'm 45) but the responses and attitudes of some of the other posters makes me seem like I'm in my 20's compared to them. I'm not advocating that Paizo close their forums but I dont think the company would die out because of it.
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I wanted to say pretty much this same thing but you said it better and much kinder than I would have.
More evidence of change...Gorbacz, the soft, cuddly face of the Paizo forums. :p
That, I think, is why Bioware and WotC are being at least somewhat shortsighted, and/or indicating what they think of their users' contributions and comments. I will grant that I'm a bit biased, in that I do a lot of PbP on the boards here. The current configuration of the forums has two major advantages for me: 1) so far most of the Paizo site hasn't been blocked at work, and 2) the previous posts are readily accessible.
Bear in mind also that WotC also has MtG going on in addition to their rpg lines. CCGs have a tendency to provoke more extreme reactions than just some grognard rpger complaining about how everything was better back when halfling elf and dwarf were classes and dungeon crawls ended in TPK 75% of the time.
Bioware crapped the money tree and their game quality has gone downhill since they got bought out by EA, video game complaints also tend to have a lot more vitriol.
Basically both of these companies deal in mediums where the signal to noise ratio can render a forum basically unuseable without serious investment in moderation with one bad release and that investment in moderation can act as bad pr if things go squirrelly as well.
Yeah, video game players can be such a$+@!&%s!
Wait a minute...