Rules Question: Alter Self, Familiars and the effects of polymorphing on properties / abilities

[Dairfaron]

Hello guys,

So, I have been thinking about this for quite a while:

It has been clarified, that it is possible to cast Alter Self onto one's familiar via the Shared Spells feature, which is funny and allows for a lot of weird roleplay.

Now the thing is:

Let's say we have an improved Familiar ( Nycarfor example, let's call him Mr. Snakey)and want to polymorph the little guy into a hot elf lady.

Now, that being weird enough, Mr. Snakey has a lot of properties that are quite powerful, like the combination of Regeneration and Ferocity, essentially rendering him invincible against any enemy who can't bypass cold iron DR.

The Polymorph Section of D20pfsrd states

Polymorph:

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

which has been giving me some headache for the last days, because the rule wording is
"you lose any class features that depend upon form .
As to what class features ARE generally dependent on form, this rule is rather unspecific and calls out to the GM to decide in individual cases.

As to what abilities Mr. Snakey would lose in case of an Alter Self spell:
- darkvision, low-light vision, scent
- immunity to paralysis and sleep
- the water breathing ability, amphibious property and natural swim speed of its aquatic subtype
- bite attack
- poison and elusive (Ex) abilities
- the "can't be tripped" addition to its cmd
- the +8 racial modifier on Escape Artist

Now what remains:
- regeneration 1 (cold iron)
- ferocity
- DR 5\cold iron

Now I would say, that since ferocity is more of a state of mind than body dependent, it should survive any polymorph effects.

And here begins the tricky part:

- since the regeneration effect and the DR are neither part of the Dragon template nor any other template that could eventually be related to a Nycar, they do not depend on the creature type.

- there are class feature who grant regeneration without actually being body dependent, like HERE, so regeneration and maybe even damage reduction might come from an especially stubborn or inspirated mindset, that makes the creature more durable

So what whould you guys rule as a GM?

Would you let Mr. Snakey keep his sweet regeneration and damage reduction, so that he can always look good, even when below zero hitpoints?
Or would you rules that regeneration and DR are exclusively body dependent and thus are lost in transformation?

Looking forward to some enlightenment!

[Claxon]

As a GM, unless damage reduction and regeneration are explicitly granted by a source that isn't the body, I'm going to rule they depend on the body.

Unfortunately, polymorph spells and what you lose is a long debated topic. There are only rules of thumb, nothing better.

[Ascalaphus]

I agree with Claxon, my presumption would be that something as physical as regeneration does depend on form.

[Skorn]

Plus with a charisma of 9 Mr. Snakey is never gonna pull off "Hot Elf Lady" :P

[Oddman80]

Skorn wrote:

Plus with a charisma of 9 Mr. Snakey is never gonna pull off "Hot Elf Lady" :P

Only if you qualify that one's hotness is derived from things beyond the superficial "first glance" appearance.

[RoseCrown]

Wait, I just realised... A (true) dragon using Alter Self will also turn into a humanoid. Interesting!

[Ascalaphus]

Well, technically it'll turn into a humanoid-shaped entity. With considerably fewer defenses than in its full majestic dragon form. But still pretty badass ability scores.

[Loengrin]

Oddman80 wrote:

Skorn wrote:

Plus with a charisma of 9 Mr. Snakey is never gonna pull off "Hot Elf Lady" :P

Only if you qualify that one's hotness is derived from things beyond the superficial "first glance" appearance.

That's one of the main issue with Charisma... People always believe that it is related to physics, which it's certainly not, it's a mental ability...

And since beauty is relative you can certainly polymorph someone into a "hot elf lady" which will be what you think a "hot elf lady" shoiuld looks like... :p

But, for a reason (beauty being relative), beauty has no impact on rules... so being an elf or a hot elf changes nothing... ;)

Now to the rules... Alter Self clearly state what you can or cannot keep...

Quote:

When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.

Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.

Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength.

Ok now to the powers you think you can keep :

- regeneration 1 (cold iron) : a Ex power that certainly depend on the metabolism... Not ok to keep...
- DR 5\cold iron : Same as above, Alter selph does not give you the same ability as your previous body... no DR for you... ;)

- Ferocity : I would rule ok to keep...

Things you left out : you can now speak Draconic :p

The issue here is that it can't be really be debated on the Rule Forum since the rule is "you lose any class features that depend upon form" and that is not a clear Rule statement... :/