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Recently I got into an argument with another player via PM and they said some some stuff that really stuck my craw. S/He said "It is a game." "It is not real." "Move on." I get that some people can think that way. And I know its fantasy and imagination. I just wasn't expecting that from a fairly active player. For me and most of my friends this is not the case. It has long since become something more than a game. I was wondering if others felt the same way or if we are outliers.
Yes, it is empirically "just" a game. Though I think game are more important than we realize..and in no case should "it's just a game" serve as reason to dismiss rudeness or other bad behavior.
For me and most of my friends this is not the case. It has long since become something more than a game.
What elements make it 'more than a game'? How do you differentiate between a game and whatever this is for you?
For me and most of my friends this is not the case. It has long since become something more than a game.What elements make it 'more than a game'? How do you differentiate between a game and whatever this is for you?
S+*& I don't know. I just know it is. I think I am basically referring to how much time you spend thinking about the game outside of actually playing. I mean I have games like Warframe, Crackdown, and Call of Duty that I play for a while then set them down and don't think about them until I play them again. I like them for that mind numbing quality. Slay some monsters in a cool way, get lot, done. That's just a game.
I think about pathfinder almost constantly, or more specifically, the story telling elements. New character backgrounds, PC interactions, should I say this, do that, how would my character react to this situation? Mass Effect did the same thing. Even when I wasn't playing I was thinking about alternate character dialogue, alternate endings, the relationships, whole new scenes. That kind of thing I guess.
Do you have a definition? Cause that's the best I got.
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Well sure it's more than a game. It's also a social activity, a creative outlet, and kind of a money sink (for me :P).
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It's a game. But a game it's never JUST a game when you are passionate about it. A lot of hooligans would probably beat you up for saying their hobby is just a game.
To me it is a game, but it has also helped me to get out of difficult situations in my life. When you roleplay you get to see the world from other people minds, and sometimes having a character with a positive perspective of life also helps you to think more positively. Being able to get through obstacles in a fiction and take decissions also helps to raise self esteem.
And it is also a way to learn to work in a team, to put yourself in the situation of other people, even if they are fictional.
Roleplaying has always been one of the favorite tools in psychology, so I am not surprised that roleplaying can be of help to get to improve in real life.
I've seen shy people get out of their shells, loners to learn to play in a team.
So... to me it's a game, but not JUST a game.
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The events in the game may be imagined, but the interactions between the players are not. To the extent that the game events affect those interactions, they are real.
DM A, I don't know the context of your argument. However, I've seen similar comments from people who just did something in-game that hacked off other players. Regarding that, I'm with Terquem and bugleyman. Just because the game is imaginary doesn't make it OK to deliberately ruin someone else's fun.
Roleplaying has always been one of the favorite tools in psychology, so I am not surprised that roleplaying can be of help to get to improve in real life.
So true: Gestalt
As long as your hobby is not debilitating (as long as you can pay your rent), then all is well.
Hum...this one is hard for me to pin down exactly but Terquem's post largely sums up my own feelings.
*I do think about Pathfinder in general and the games that I play in and characters and character concepts and the cool things that happen quite often.
*I enjoy Pathfinder and Play-by-Post to the point that I've cut back on the amount of time I spent on console/PC games, which have been a treasured hobby of mine since childhood.
*I try to maintain a certain degree of attachment to my characters and games. If a character of mine should die, sure, that's a bummer. But instead of letting it get me down I just think of the fun that I had with them while it lasted and also view it as an opportunity to give life to a new character, maybe someone totally different from the one that just died. Heck, I'm not even opposed to a 'scripted' PC death if it adds to the greater story in some manner (and if said PC's player is on board with such a thing, of course).
*The above does not mean that I intentionally play poorly. While I do sometimes make mistakes or bad judgement calls as everyone does, living is preferable to dying - not to mention my actions in-game also can have consequences for the other PCs. Just because I'm able to be a bit cavalier about my own PC's mortality, that doesn't mean that everyone else is. Some people really put a lot of heart and soul into their characters and I do take that seriously, or at least try to.
*Though I do greatly enjoy the roleplay aspect of the game and am not averse to a bit of in-character conflict (not PvP, that's different), it doesn't bother me at all to metagame a bit and have a PC of mine back down on something/compromise/agree to disagree in the name of keeping the peace at the table. Maintaining a good relationship with my fellow players and keeping the game going is more important to me than my PC acting 100% true to life all the time.
Hopefully all of that makes sense.
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It can be difficult to say something is “just a hobby” or “just something I do” when you have spent so much time, effort, and money into that something for well over 30 continuous years.
So while technically, it IS just a game. However, it has the potential to become so much more, almost a part of your life; not a part of who you are… You shouldn’t let it define you. But if you spend enough time, effort, and money on something, then that something can certainly become an important part of your life.
And that is where I stand. I have spent an immeasurable amount of time, effort, and money on this "hobby" (for over 30 continuous years), that it has become an important part of my life, yet the game does not define who I am.
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Electoral politics and the global economy are just games, too - just ones that people allow to have deadly serious consequences.
For my part, I am absolutely convinced that those of us who live in many universes wind up being substantially better at discerning truth from falsehood than those who pride themselves on "living in the real world."
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Recently I got into an argument with another player via PM and they said some some stuff that really stuck my craw. S/He said "It is a game." "It is not real." "Move on." I get that some people can think that way. And I know its fantasy and imagination. I just wasn't expecting that from a fairly active player. For me and most of my friends this is not the case. It has long since become something more than a game. I was wondering if others felt the same way or if we are outliers.
I share your view, I think. I would find myself rejecting the description "just a game".
Partly I suspect I'm responding to the word "just" as that has connotations of judging the activity as somehow having less importance than I am ascribing to it.
However, I think it's also objectively something beyond a game to me - I consider RPGs to be as much art as game. Over the years I have owned way more stuff than I will ever use to play - most of it purchased with the understanding that it was never going to see use (by me, anyway) at the table.
For most of my adult life I never read novels. When I wanted a break from non-fiction, I'd tend to read RPG sourcebooks. The ones I prefer tend to be light on rules and long on flavor, but that isn't a hard and fast rule.
Gaming has been my biggest creative outlet for most of my life at this point. I was an art major in college, but sadly, I haven't been able to maintain the habit of constantly drawing, painting, etc. that I had back then. But gaming--and especially game mastering--have remained a constant.
I have friends and family that "get" that, and others that don't. (I also have people who "get" my lifelong obsession with LEGO, and many who don't!)
Gaming has also been one of the most reliable ways for me to find new friends over the years, and to enrich the friendships I already have. For the 20 years that I lived in Boston, almost all my closest friendships there (including my wife!) were made through the SCA or gaming--and often both. When we moved to Kentucky a few years ago, finding other gamers was easily our most urgent social need.
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It is "just" a game. However, there is a level of personal investment that makes it more, as well. The same as with any hobby or other interest (it's "just" a car for a gear-head, it's "just" a sporting event, it's "just" a concert, etc.).
Being dismissive toward another's interest is IMO a bit rude and shows a lack of empathy. Or maybe that person is just being a jerk (or selfish) and/or is interested "winning" ("Oh, quit complaining. Your character got eaten by the swamp horror. Too bad. Mine didn't, and got some nice treasure.")
For my part, I am absolutely convinced that those of us who live in many universes wind up being substantially better at discerning truth from falsehood than those who pride themselves on "living in the real world."
That's mostly because RPGs teach critical thinking. Maybe not overtly, but goal-setting, step-by-step analysis, and problem solving are often as much a part of RPGs as "using your imagination."
Too many of the "living in the real world" types just don't have much in the way of critical thinking skills.
Because RPGs also draw heavily on real-world culture and history, those that play RPGs tend to have a better general grounding (or at least basic familiarity) in social systems and geopolitics (outside of those that made that their career focus, of course). Sadly, most people know (or retain, at least) very little about "the real world" outside of the immediate area where they grew up/live. Those that play RPGs are at least in the habit of thinking about the mind-sets and motivations of people other than themselves; i.e., "getting into character." Another skill that many of the "living in the real world" types often lack much of.
Recently I got into an argument with another player via PM and they said some some stuff that really stuck my craw. S/He said "It is a game." "It is not real." "Move on." I get that some people can think that way. And I know its fantasy and imagination. I just wasn't expecting that from a fairly active player. For me and most of my friends this is not the case. It has long since become something more than a game. I was wondering if others felt the same way or if we are outliers.
Does not compute. Yes it's "just" a game, no, I don't see why an involved gamer would 'just move on'... unless the conversation is about a player not able to get over the fair death of a character.. there'll always be more caracters and more great adventures.
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From what the OP told us, I get the gist that those phrases were used to make the point that whatever was the focus of the argument was basically not important and that would bother me as well, because I wouldn't invest as much time in my hobby as I do if wasn't important (to me, at least).
Generally speaking, yes RPGs are a game, obviously. I think they are more valuable as other games though, because they are also a creative outlet and an educational tool, and yes, they are part art. I don't know any other game (maybe apart from chess) that has had so much influence in making me the person I am today and simultaneously added to my knowledge and helped broaden my horizon as much as RPGs.
On the other hand, playing is an integral part of humanity (and other animals as well), which makes games generally into something worthwhile and valuable. Something we should be aware of if we say that roleplaying is "more than (just) a game".
but personally:
Siegbert Tarrasch, one of the strongest chess players at the beginning of the 20th century once said: "Chess is a form of intellectual productiveness, therein lies, its peculiar charm. Intellectual productiveness is one of the greatest joys -if not the greatest one- of human existence. It is not everyone who can write a play, or build a bridge, or even make a good joke. But in chess everyone can, everyone must, be intellectually productive and so can share in this select delight. I have always a slight feeling of pity for the man who has no knowledge of chess, just as I would pity for the man who has no knowledge of love. Chess, like love, like music, has the power to make men happy."
And in my opinion, you can say the exact same thing about RPGs.
I would rather not re-hash the argument or try to paraphrase. It would be impossible for me to be unbiased. I think I have my answer though. Basically, everyone thinks differently. Everyone ascribes a certain level of importance to this "game" and no two people will be at the same level. Thus I shouldn't assume that anyone on the boards ascribes it same level of importance I do. There is variance above and below. Thanks guys.
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"Everything you can imagine is real."
- Pablo Picasso
Good thing Picasso lived in an era before hentai.
ick
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rule 34 seen by Picasso would be fun...
I've always had mixed feelings on this. It is both. It is JUST A GAME... and it is MORE than 'JUST a game.
The emotionally invested you get in something... the more you devote your time and energy to something... the worse off you'll be. There are some truly rabidly devoted Fanatics that give/gave this game some serious bad press over the years. People who would flip a table and swear out the DM because a bad roll caused his character to die and friendships and relationships ruined over it... that's taking things TOO far. At the end of the day, it is just a game. If this character dies, make a new one. If the campaign ends, that's a chance to start another. There's a difference between Emotionally invested... and obsessed. I've crossed that line a few times, and now actively try to keep at least two steps back from utter obsession.
On the other hand, other people depend on you. When I have people tell me to blow off game night over something that may or may not be more important to them... It's MORE than 'just a game'. If we were sitting around and playing Clue or Monopoly or something of that nature... my absence means nothing. If I skip a baseball game, than someone else gets to play center field... no big deal. If we even LOSE that baseball game... it's still not a big deal, there will always be next season.
If I bail on a game night and my dwarf isn't there to put the smack down on the giant king, or our main healer is MIA or we have no wizard that night and we stopped right before the BBEG... then a LOT of ramifications can happen. The difference in a game designed for 6 PCs being run by 4 can be brutal. Characters can die that would in fact be my/your fault because the group planned on you being there. I can get over my own character dying from my bad decisions... but I hate causing someone else's to die (after I know they spent months working on it) because I blew them off... Even worse if the group just cancels for the night because I went to a movie or something instead. Now everyone else's fun is ruined... RPGs are a whole different thing the typical board game. the continuity means something.
That said, there are always higher priorities. Family, Work, medical... Those are things that always take first slots, but I know it's hard for some people to balance 'It's just a game' and 'It's more than Just a game'.
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Ultimately it is just a game. I've been playing/running RPG's off and on for about 30 years now and it's still just a game. There are a great deal of things that I prioritize above my TTRPG hobby. Most importantly people. The hobby and the game is NOTHING without good people to share it with. And finding good people to be around even outside of the hobby is hard enough.
So yes it's just a game, I've always found it disturbing and off putting when I've had players or people who invest themselves so much in the game but dont know how or care to be human beings or have empathy or common sense. I'm sure that it's also the case in other geek hobbies but there seems to be an abundance of it in TTRPG's.
I still love TTRPGs but I find myself moving towards Boardgames and Miniature games. Easier to setup and involve people who are unfamiliar with hobby games than TTRPG's.
There's also the visible investment of time, not so much with boardgames but with miniature games the assembly and painting of miniatures is a visable represntation of the work that you've put in. Looking at painted Cygnar/Khador/Cryx army you can see the work that you've put in. Where as with RPG's you have the story but it really only means anything to that particular group that you've played with.
SkinHakkaider, I mostly aggree with you, but I disagree at the same time.
I don't see the people and the game as a separate thing. As a social game, the people make the game, so trying to disengage both concepts is impossible to me.
I wouldn't be playing it if it wasn't for people I enjoy sharing my time with. And as a game it has also allowed me to get to know some people much better and develop further bonds, as cooperating to get things done really helps to be closer to someone. It has also helped me to realize how some people had not so good qualities that later became obvious too in real life (being selfish or unable to work in a team).
Most people that I have heard saying "it's just a game" said it as a way to justify some kind of disruptive or offensive behaviour. Maybe it's OK using a game as a scapegoat for your real life problems, but not if you are pushing your frustrations against other people at the table.
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On the other hand, other people depend on you. When I have people tell me to blow off game night over something that may or may not be more important to them... It's MORE than 'just a game'. ...
If I skip a baseball game, than someone else gets to play center field... no big deal. If we even LOSE that baseball game... it's still not a big deal, there will always be next season.
If I bail on a game night and my dwarf isn't there to put the smack down on the giant king, or our main healer is MIA or we have no wizard that night and we stopped right before the BBEG... then a LOT of ramifications can happen.
That's actually already taking the game way too seriously, in my opinion. In sports, you let real people down if you skip the game, and they rely on you as much as your friends sitting at the table. And for any sports fan, that game is as important (if not more) as any roleplaying game could be. I used to be an active player and I had rather skipped 10 roleplaying sessions before I had let my team down only one time, just to give a point of reference. And I didn't skip actual roleplaying sessions either, because that was really important to me, too.
My way of saying that everyone has his own priorities. But still, in both cases you let real people down that count on you, and that's the important point. Not if the match could be lost or if a character could die.
I consider RPGs to be a form of art, since it's a creative expression that doesn't serve any utilitarian purpose. In that sense, it is "just a game", because the end result is not something that can be used by anyone (typically).
Although engaging in creative expression (ie. art) serves all sorts of purposes to human psychology.
On the other hand, other people depend on you. When I have people tell me to blow off game night over something that may or may not be more important to them... It's MORE than 'just a game'. ...
If I skip a baseball game, than someone else gets to play center field... no big deal. If we even LOSE that baseball game... it's still not a big deal, there will always be next season.
If I bail on a game night and my dwarf isn't there to put the smack down on the giant king, or our main healer is MIA or we have no wizard that night and we stopped right before the BBEG... then a LOT of ramifications can happen.
That's actually already taking the game way too seriously, in my opinion. In sports, you let real people down if you skip the game, and they rely on you as much as your friends sitting at the table. And for any sports fan, that game is as important (if not more) as any roleplaying game could be. I used to be an active player and I had rather skipped 10 roleplaying sessions before I had let my team down only one time, just to give a point of reference. And I didn't skip actual roleplaying sessions either, because that was really important to me, too.
My way of saying that everyone has his own priorities. But still, in both cases you let real people down that count on you, and that's the important point. Not if the match could be lost or if a character could die.
Yeah, it's all a matter of priorities. I have personally never had much respect for sports so mine is a little jaded. My point was more this... On a sports team they don't really NEED you. There are contingencies in place where there are back ups sitting on the bench in case of injury or getting in a slump. Players are rotated out all the time and the team goes in expecting that. No one person should be carrying the whole team. If you don't show up to play center field... then someone else gets more game time. It may throw off some strategy or percentages or something... but the game can go on. Also, I'm not sure anymore how long those seasons tend to last. My nephews played played a couple times a week this year but only for one month...
TTRPG though? The 'teams' are much smaller and the roles harder to replace when someone bails. A team of 16 playing with only 15 is a lot better than a team of 4 playing 3... The games can go on with the same party for YEARS... So to me, that kind of thing holds more weight. I try really hard not to be the one who bails... but again; Family, work, vacations, things do come up and they are higher priority.
SkinHakkaider, I mostly aggree with you, but I disagree at the same time.
I don't see the people and the game as a separate thing. As a social game, the people make the game, so trying to disengage both concepts is impossible to me.I wouldn't be playing it if it wasn't for people I enjoy sharing my time with. And as a game it has also allowed me to get to know some people much better and develop further bonds, as cooperating to get things done really helps to be closer to someone. It has also helped me to realize how some people had not so good qualities that later became obvious too in real life (being selfish or unable to work in a team).
Most people that I have heard saying "it's just a game" said it as a way to justify some kind of disruptive or offensive behaviour. Maybe it's OK using a game as a scapegoat for your real life problems, but not if you are pushing your frustrations against other people at the table.
Very true and I agree with your statement about being unable to separate the people from the game. although there are people who view the game itself as an acedemic exercise, especially a game with as many moving parts as Pathfinder. They'll create characters and ability / feat combos to just to do that and I suppose that's as much a part of the game as anything. But in terms of actually playing? Yeah I agree, it's difficult to separate the people you share playing the game with from the game itself.
SkinHakkaider, I mostly aggree with you, but I disagree at the same time.
I don't see the people and the game as a separate thing. As a social game, the people make the game, so trying to disengage both concepts is impossible to me.I wouldn't be playing it if it wasn't for people I enjoy sharing my time with. And as a game it has also allowed me to get to know some people much better and develop further bonds, as cooperating to get things done really helps to be closer to someone. It has also helped me to realize how some people had not so good qualities that later became obvious too in real life (being selfish or unable to work in a team).
Most people that I have heard saying "it's just a game" said it as a way to justify some kind of disruptive or offensive behaviour. Maybe it's OK using a game as a scapegoat for your real life problems, but not if you are pushing your frustrations against other people at the table.
Very true and I agree with your statement about being unable to separate the people from the game. although there are people who view the game itself as an acedemic exercise, especially a game with as many moving parts as Pathfinder. They'll create characters and ability / feat combos to just to do that and I suppose that's as much a part of the game as anything. But in terms of actually playing? Yeah I agree, it's difficult to separate the people you share playing the game with from the game itself.
I wonder if there's a difference when you get into organized/society play? I play with the same groups of close friends I have for 20 years or so, so it's easy for me to either see People/game as one entity or chose friends over the game... But if your playing with a different group every week???
I think it would be a lot easier to see the game as being above whoever you're playing with. People don't matter, I'll just find a different group, it's all aobut the character kind of thing...
I'm not sure if this is a myth, but I read once about kids that played a game a little too seriously. Something about swords and a drainage ditch and someone dead. Yep it's just a game. Sure I have spent way too much money on books and games. I still have 2nd Edition Talisman with painted minis. These days my friends play Arkham horror more than Champions but do I run around and think it is all real? No and I pray to Chuthulu and hope he thinks I'm not lying.
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On a sports team they don't really NEED you. There are contingencies in place where there are back ups sitting on the bench in case of injury or getting in a slump. Players are rotated out all the time and the team goes in expecting that. No one person should be carrying the whole team. If you don't show up to play center field... then someone else gets more game time.
Sport-lovers take sports at least as seriously as you take RPGs. At the top end of sports there are huge amounts of money and the potential for rioting fans in the streets. Do you think a footballer could get away with missing a big game because he wants to spend more time with his children?
Also, you can do the much same things in RPGs as you do in sports to prepare for unexpected absences. In my first Pathfinder group, if we ended one session in the middle of a dungeon and then next week a player didn't show up, someone else would run his character for him, because that makes more in-world sense than the PC suddenly vanishing. The player running two characters just gets more table time.
SkinHakkaider, I mostly aggree with you, but I disagree at the same time.
I don't see the people and the game as a separate thing. As a social game, the people make the game, so trying to disengage both concepts is impossible to me.I wouldn't be playing it if it wasn't for people I enjoy sharing my time with. And as a game it has also allowed me to get to know some people much better and develop further bonds, as cooperating to get things done really helps to be closer to someone. It has also helped me to realize how some people had not so good qualities that later became obvious too in real life (being selfish or unable to work in a team).
Most people that I have heard saying "it's just a game" said it as a way to justify some kind of disruptive or offensive behaviour. Maybe it's OK using a game as a scapegoat for your real life problems, but not if you are pushing your frustrations against other people at the table.
Very true and I agree with your statement about being unable to separate the people from the game. although there are people who view the game itself as an acedemic exercise, especially a game with as many moving parts as Pathfinder. They'll create characters and ability / feat combos to just to do that and I suppose that's as much a part of the game as anything. But in terms of actually playing? Yeah I agree, it's difficult to separate the people you share playing the game with from the game itself.
I wonder if there's a difference when you get into organized/society play? I play with the same groups of close friends I have for 20 years or so, so it's easy for me to either see People/game as one entity or chose friends over the game... But if your playing with a different group every week???
I think it would be a lot easier to see the game as being above whoever you're playing with. People don't matter, I'll just find a different group, it's all aobut the character kind of thing...
Good Point and one that I didnt consider as I avoid Organized Play like the plague. It's probably the only reaason that I'll never go to GENCON or Paizo Con or any game con for that matter.
I actually enjoy playing with people I don't know. I thoroughly enjoy my home games and each gaming group that I play with regularly, but it's fun to be surprised by people I don't know as well. A convention is fun because in a few short days I can get 6 months of gaming in, and I get to play games that some of my groups might not be interested in. I also get to play games I didn't even know existed before I got to the convention.
You can go to a Con for shopping, gaming news, and discussions. You don't have to participate in organized play.
True! But then it becomes the matter of is it worth traveling from NYC to any Seattle or Indianapolis just for the shoping, gaming news and discussions? For me that answer is nope.
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Seattle is great, not so much for Indy, but I get the point.
Gaming with unknowns can be daunting, but I find it enjoyable when I temper expectations. I know I'm not going to get the same experience I get with the homies. Though like IT said, "it's fun to be surprised by people you don't know well." Also, it never hurts to know more gamers.
I actually enjoy playing with people I don't know. I thoroughly enjoy my home games and each gaming group that I play with regularly, but it's fun to be surprised by people I don't know as well. A convention is fun because in a few short days I can get 6 months of gaming in, and I get to play games that some of my groups might not be interested in. I also get to play games I didn't even know existed before I got to the convention.I don't mind playing with people I don't know - though "people I know" has the advantage of having weeded out the jerks.
I prefer campaigns with long plot arcs and character development to one shots. Even loosely linked one shots like organized play.Convention one shots can be fun for trying out new stuff, but it's not at all what I look for in gaming.
I think we've had enough debates to already know that you and I have different tastes in games.
Though I'm going to a convention this fall that's a "long con". You play the same game for 17 hours over the course of the weekend, which lets you get in a pretty decent story in. Not necessarily for games like PF or D&D, but that's a ton of time for something like DW.
I wonder if there's a difference when you get into organized/society play? I play with the same groups of close friends I have for 20 years or so, so it's easy for me to either see People/game as one entity or chose friends over the game... But if your playing with a different group every week???
I think it would be a lot easier to see the game as being above whoever you're playing with. People don't matter, I'll just find a different group, it's all aobut the character kind of thing...
As someone who has been playing PFS on and off since 2012 I can say that I do not see it that way. You don't always play with a different group.
Because of work and life I am usually unable to devote the amount of time needed to a home game. I love playing and interacting with people in general and a lot of thought and heart goes into my characters. PFS has been wonderful, both in meeting new people and gaming with regulars. Even with a two year break and coming back I still play with friends from 2012. In fact, we sometimes build characters and parties that go through scenarios together when we can swing it. We have a very active group that continues to grow.
One of my characters in particular just went though AFI with a group he started with back in 2012. It was a cool concept to think that even though years had separated are Pathfinder team, our last mission, for the most part, with our characters was together as the same group.
The people I have met and the friends I have made though PFS has made the "game" even more real and fun for me.