paizo.com Recent Posts in Druidic herbalism clarificationpaizo.com Recent Posts in Druidic herbalism clarification2017-06-26T18:32:37Z2017-06-26T18:32:37ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Druidic herbalism clarificationCavallhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ufe1?Druidic-herbalism-clarification#132017-06-27T17:30:40Z2017-06-27T17:12:46Z<p>Great idea, shite system. Herbalism needs a redo.</p>Great idea, shite system. Herbalism needs a redo.Cavall2017-06-27T17:12:46ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Druidic herbalism clarificationjcheunghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ufe1?Druidic-herbalism-clarification#122017-06-27T08:08:24Z2017-06-27T08:08:24Z<p>ah, but a 'base potion' as you call it, has no material component... costly or otherwise.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>If the potion has a material component cost, it is added to the base price and cost to create.</blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote><p>The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and <b>must provide any material component</b> or focus the spell requires.</p>
<p>Material components are consumed when he begins working, but a focus is not. (a focus used in brewing a potion can be reused.) The act of brewing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster’s currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)</blockquote><p>the material components are added to a base potion in order to allow it to function as intended.
<p>additionally, when brewing a potion, you <i>are</i> casting</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>The act of brewing <b>triggers the prepared spell</b>, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster’s currently prepared spells, <b>just as if it had been cast.</b>)</blockquote><p>ah, but a 'base potion' as you call it, has no material component... costly or otherwise.
Quote:If the potion has a material component cost, it is added to the base price and cost to create.
Quote:The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.
Material components are consumed when he begins working, but a focus is not. (a focus used in...jcheung2017-06-27T08:08:24ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Druidic herbalism clarificationgraystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ufe1?Druidic-herbalism-clarification#112017-06-27T06:07:11Z2017-06-27T06:07:11Z<p>alchemical power component where updated in the Alchemy Manual: they are "additional material component" and called Alchemical Reagents.</p>
<p>The point you missed is even if you were to add one to a potion, does it work? You don't cast the spell as normal.</p>
<p>Nethys's dagger: note it has effects FOR POTIONS and spells.
<br />
It has one effect for potions: "causing all variable numeric effects of the potion to be determined as if the potion’s caster level were 1 higher"
<br />
It has a different effect for casting: "+1 alchemical bonus on caster level checks to overcome spell resistance".</p>
<p>Nethys's dagger is one of the reasons I don't think Alchemical Reagents work in potions. If the casting effect worked with potions, why have a different entry for potions?</p>
<p>As to Nethys's dagger 'for free', I'd still say no. It's an "additive" to the free potion and not part of the normal potion.</p>alchemical power component where updated in the Alchemy Manual: they are "additional material component" and called Alchemical Reagents.
The point you missed is even if you were to add one to a potion, does it work? You don't cast the spell as normal.
Nethys's dagger: note it has effects FOR POTIONS and spells.
It has one effect for potions: "causing all variable numeric effects of the potion to be determined as if the potion’s caster level were 1 higher"
It has a different effect for...graystone2017-06-27T06:07:11ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Druidic herbalism clarificationjcheunghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ufe1?Druidic-herbalism-clarification#102017-06-27T05:43:10Z2017-06-27T05:36:23Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>An alchemical power component is an alchemical item used as a material component or focus for a spell in order to alter or augment the spell’s normal effects. What follows is a sample of these effects using this item as a component; your GM may allow other combinations.</blockquote><p>This makes it a material component. Not additional component, just 'a material component for a spell'.
</p>
The herb Nethys's dagger specifically states 'additional material component when casting spells' (also stating additive to potions), but it is still a material component for 'costly material component' when added to a normal potion (not concoction) when not casting a spell.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Material components are consumed when he begins working, but a focus is not. (a focus used in brewing a potion can be reused.) The act of brewing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster’s currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)</blockquote><p>Material components are consumed at the start of a potion's craftQuote:An alchemical power component is an alchemical item used as a material component or focus for a spell in order to alter or augment the spell’s normal effects. What follows is a sample of these effects using this item as a component; your GM may allow other combinations.
This makes it a material component. Not additional component, just 'a material component for a spell'.
The herb Nethys's dagger specifically states 'additional material component when casting spells' (also stating...jcheung2017-06-27T05:36:23ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Druidic herbalism clarificationgraystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ufe1?Druidic-herbalism-clarification#92017-06-27T05:31:46Z2017-06-27T05:31:46Z<p>jcheung:</p>
<p>costly material components: These IMO fall under free.
<br />
alchemical power components: I'm unsure that they can be used in a potion. The spell isn't actually cast when making a potion and can you "additional material component" when the spells isn't cast? I don't think so, so that's why I'd say no.
<br />
special herbs: these aren't part of the potion at all, hence them not being free. All adding them in means that it and the potion take effect at the same time. It's a potion + herb and not a potion herb. All it does is help with action economy, not price.</p>jcheung:
costly material components: These IMO fall under free.
alchemical power components: I'm unsure that they can be used in a potion. The spell isn't actually cast when making a potion and can you "additional material component" when the spells isn't cast? I don't think so, so that's why I'd say no.
special herbs: these aren't part of the potion at all, hence them not being free. All adding them in means that it and the potion take effect at the same time. It's a potion + herb and not a...graystone2017-06-27T05:31:46ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Druidic herbalism clarificationjcheunghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ufe1?Druidic-herbalism-clarification#82017-06-27T05:33:07Z2017-06-27T05:02:09Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">graystone wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I'd say:
</p>
costly material components are part of free. I could see a DM making someone pay for the costly materials but as written, free is free.</p>
<p>...</p>
<p>Free potion take time but it's the minimum 2 hrs before reductions [as 0gp is less than 250gp] and don't count towards the 1/day magic item limit [or you couldn't make wis/day].</p>
<p>Special herbs aren't part of the base potion, so they are priced normally [not free].
<br />
</blockquote><p>So you're saying that the 'free' portion occurs after this (below)? Leaves a sour taste in my mouth, because material components are material components whether they are special herbs, alchemical power components or base material components required for the spell... so they should all be treated the same. I can accept it as you state though...
</p>
[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>My biggest problem with this, is the 0 gp cost you're using for the base price for crafting. The class feature should only be adding the bolded sentence to the following:
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]
<br />
That also supports paying for costly material components/alchemical power components/special herbs, as well as following:
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]
<br />
Which, for free concoctions in my eyes reads as: Take a base potion. Do not pay the base cost. Craft as normal, modifying for lvl 4 or 7 as required.</p>
<p>i know you hate spoiler walls, but i can't help myself :D</p>graystone wrote:I'd say:
costly material components are part of free. I could see a DM making someone pay for the costly materials but as written, free is free....
Free potion take time but it's the minimum 2 hrs before reductions [as 0gp is less than 250gp] and don't count towards the 1/day magic item limit [or you couldn't make wis/day].
Special herbs aren't part of the base potion, so they are priced normally [not free].
So you're saying that the 'free' portion occurs after this...jcheung2017-06-27T05:02:09ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Druidic herbalism clarificationDave Justushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ufe1?Druidic-herbalism-clarification#72017-06-26T19:38:45Z2017-06-26T19:38:45Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">jcheung wrote:</div><blockquote><p> In that case, is there a limit on how many special concoctions that can be made? This is why I lumped it in with herbals...
</p>
Or is it limited by number of spell slots over lvl 3? </blockquote><p>Special concoctions can only be made using spells (and therefore slots) of higher than third level. The is no limitation on how many (well, technically you could read 'create a special concoction' as a 1 time ever limitation, but this would obviously be a misreading), but a slot must be expended for each one.jcheung wrote:In that case, is there a limit on how many special concoctions that can be made? This is why I lumped it in with herbals...
Or is it limited by number of spell slots over lvl 3?
Special concoctions can only be made using spells (and therefore slots) of higher than third level. The is no limitation on how many (well, technically you could read 'create a special concoction' as a 1 time ever limitation, but this would obviously be a misreading), but a slot must be expended for...Dave Justus2017-06-26T19:38:45ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Druidic herbalism clarificationgraystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ufe1?Druidic-herbalism-clarification#62017-06-26T19:30:58Z2017-06-26T19:30:58Z<p>I'd say:
<br />
costly material components are part of free. I could see a DM making someone pay for the costly materials but as written, free is free.</p>
<p>Spells: spells are expended as normal. This means that at low levels, if you a high enough wisdom, you might have to make cantrip potions to get all your free ones.</p>
<p>Free potion take time but it's the minimum 2 hrs before reductions [as 0gp is less than 250gp] and don't count towards the 1/day magic item limit [or you couldn't make wis/day].</p>
<p>Special herbs aren't part of the base potion, so they are priced normally [not free].</p>
<p>Special Concoctions: Make as many as you want as you trade your spell slot for an infusions.</p>
<p>Any other questions?</p>I'd say:
costly material components are part of free. I could see a DM making someone pay for the costly materials but as written, free is free.
Spells: spells are expended as normal. This means that at low levels, if you a high enough wisdom, you might have to make cantrip potions to get all your free ones.
Free potion take time but it's the minimum 2 hrs before reductions [as 0gp is less than 250gp] and don't count towards the 1/day magic item limit [or you couldn't make wis/day].
...graystone2017-06-26T19:30:58ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Druidic herbalism clarificationjcheunghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ufe1?Druidic-herbalism-clarification#52017-06-26T19:16:50Z2017-06-26T19:16:50Z<p>In that case, is there a limit on how many special concoctions that can be made? This is why I lumped it in with herbals...
<br />
Or is it limited by number of spell slots over lvl 3?</p>In that case, is there a limit on how many special concoctions that can be made? This is why I lumped it in with herbals...
Or is it limited by number of spell slots over lvl 3?jcheung2017-06-26T19:16:50ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Druidic herbalism clarificationDave Justushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ufe1?Druidic-herbalism-clarification#42017-06-26T19:06:35Z2017-06-26T19:06:35Z<p>First off, it isn't uncommon for things from the Player Companion splatbook line to not be fully baked, and this is a pretty good example of that. </p>
<p>My guess is that what they wanted was the intrinsic potion cost (50 • SL • CL) to be free, and the material components to still be extra. That being said, what they wrote and what they wanted may not be the same thing.</p>
<p>As written, the ability allows you to create two distinct types of objects, an Herbal Concoction and a Special Concoction. Despite the similarity of the name, there is no reason to think that rules that apply to one apply to the other.</p>
<p>Herbal Concoctions function exactly like potions (with all the abilities an limitations that apply) so creation time, spell craft checks etc etc. all apply. The item is permanent, can be sold, etc. Later abilities change some of these rules (making potions becomes quicker for example) but the item is still functionally equivalent to a potion. The druid can ignore the cost (including material component costs) for a number of these Herbal Concoctions each day. </p>
<p>Special Concoctions on the other hand function exactly like an alchemist extract (with infusion) so they require a spell slot, and use up that spell slot as long as they exist. Also, while the special concoction itself is free, like an alchemist extract 'If a spell normally has a costly material component, that component is expended during the consumption of that particular extract'. So you have to provide costly material components when you consume an extract (or special concoction), unlike potions which have them as part of the creation costs. Special concoctions can't benefit from the free herbal concoction ability for several reasons, one is that they are two different things, but also special concoctions are always free, and since they, like extracts, don't have material components intrinsic to them it wouldn't do you any good, you still have to provide the material component when you consume the special concoction.</p>First off, it isn't uncommon for things from the Player Companion splatbook line to not be fully baked, and this is a pretty good example of that.
My guess is that what they wanted was the intrinsic potion cost (50 * SL * CL) to be free, and the material components to still be extra. That being said, what they wrote and what they wanted may not be the same thing.
As written, the ability allows you to create two distinct types of objects, an Herbal Concoction and a Special Concoction....Dave Justus2017-06-26T19:06:35ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Druidic herbalism clarificationjcheunghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ufe1?Druidic-herbalism-clarification#32017-06-26T18:51:35Z2017-06-26T18:33:01Z<p>TL;DR</p>
<p>Brew potion rules apply to herbal concoctions, to include time, cost, costly component cost.
<br />
Do they apply to free concoctions in that,
<br />
free concoctions cost no gold to make, other than costly material components, spells, and take time
<br />
or
<br />
free concoctions have no cost for money, spells or time because 'a druid can create a number of free concoctions equal to wis mod' per day</p>
<p>You can put special herbs into the concoction for special effects, do you have to pay for them if free concoction</p>
<p>Additional details in post 1</p>
<p>I did attempt a search, but it kept crashing and only manually searched a few pages. The post you linked answers this one. Kind of. Thank you.</p>
<p>That said, more views is good too.</p>TL;DR
Brew potion rules apply to herbal concoctions, to include time, cost, costly component cost.
Do they apply to free concoctions in that,
free concoctions cost no gold to make, other than costly material components, spells, and take time
or
free concoctions have no cost for money, spells or time because 'a druid can create a number of free concoctions equal to wis mod' per day
You can put special herbs into the concoction for special effects, do you have to pay for them if free
...jcheung2017-06-26T18:33:01ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Druidic herbalism clarificationgraystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ufe1?Druidic-herbalism-clarification#22023-09-02T21:15:34Z2017-06-26T18:19:36Z<p>I was interested in the topic but the wall of spoilers has turned me off. I'll check back later to see if someone simplifies this into a readable/understandable format or asks for a specific and identifiable question.</p>
<p>If you search, you'll find other threads in which this ability has been debated already. For instance, here is one that I was posting in: <a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uaqk?A-question-about-Druidic-Herbalism#1" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Druid Herbalism</a></p>I was interested in the topic but the wall of spoilers has turned me off. I'll check back later to see if someone simplifies this into a readable/understandable format or asks for a specific and identifiable question.
If you search, you'll find other threads in which this ability has been debated already. For instance, here is one that I was posting in: Druid Herbalismgraystone2017-06-26T18:19:36ZForums: Rules Questions: Druidic herbalism clarificationjcheunghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ufe1?Druidic-herbalism-clarification#12017-06-26T18:41:21Z2017-06-26T17:58:03Z<p>Had a mass <s>argument</s> discussion with several people in a community I'm in about this, an we couldn't come to an agreement. I'd like some feedback here if possible, to bring back with me if this pops up again. Skip to the bottom for points that require clarification.</p>
<p>Point of conflict:
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>The following is a summary of my opinions on the matter. A much shorter summary of my opposition will follow.</p>
<p>Starting with the third paragraph, these points:</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>mean to me, that;
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>applies to this class feature.</p>
<p>Note: potion and herbal concoctions of lvl 1-3 shall be used interchangeably in the magical item creation paragraph.</p>
<p>Paragraph four:</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>modifies the magical item creation rules in that <i>only</i>:
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>is altered to:
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>Simultaneously, paragraph six:
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>has the first sentence modify the crafting cost of a potion from .5(spell level•CL•50) to 0.5(0.5(spell level•CL•50)), while the second sentence modifies the magical item creation rules from:
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>to
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>additionally, the last paragraph:
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>further alters the section that paragraph 4, sentence 2 alters to:
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>The final alteration to the magical item crafting rules for the purposes of this class feature looks like:
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>A special concoction will also follow the rules of an alchemist infused extract
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>as well as the rules for crafting a magical item that is not a potion, market price being determined by the potion price formula.</p>
<p>Finally, how material components are handled, costly or otherwise:
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>The following assumes the above is true.</p>
<p>1) A free or additional herbal concoction consumes time and spells as per brew potion.
<br />
2) A level 1-3 requires a minimum of 2 hours to craft each without rushing, with each day being a maximum of 8 hours of work
<br />
3) Therefore, a level 1-3 druid with 20+ wis has 5+ free concoctions available, but may only create 4 a day without rushing.
<br />
4) A skill check must be performed for <b><i>any</b></i> herbal concoction, being either spellcraft or craft (alchemy)
<br />
5) Material component costs are added to the market price and crafting cost of free and additional herbal concoctions
<br />
6) Because material components are consumed when starting, you must have the components before you start even a free concoction (clarification required)
<br />
7) For special concoctions, as per an extract with infusion, material components are consumed upon consuming the extract, similar to a wizard casting a spell. <s>No free wish for you.</s>
<br />
8) A special concoction, as per an extract with infusion, lasts 24 hours and only affects the consumer.
<br />
9) A special concoction can also be free concoction.</p>
<p>Opposition view:</p>
<p>This single sentence
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>Invalidates all above points for free concoctions, because:
<br />
1) You must be able to get as many free concoctions as their wisdom modifier, because "A druid <b>can</b> create"
<br />
2) This invalidates the time requirements entirely for free concoctions
<br />
3) A free concoction has no cost, because it is "free"
<br />
4) Cost includes time, material components, base potion price
<br />
5) This invalidates paragraph 3 of the druid class feature, and the remainder of the magic item creation rules for free concoctions
<br />
6) Got to other potential opposition arguments, such as skill checks...</p>
<p>Clarification required:
<br />
1) Which interpretation, or parts thereof are correct?
<br />
2) Because material components are consumed when starting, do you need to have the components before you start even a free concoction? In other words, do you have to pay costly material component costs for free concoctions? I noticed that you can also do.... [Spoiler omitted], do those count as costly material components as well?</p>
<p>Thank you for following this far. I await your answers. Please correct any rules that I have misquoted, or misinterpreted.
<br />
This should be viewed entirely RAW, with no (or minimal) RAI interpretations.</p>Had a mass argument discussion with several people in a community I'm in about this, an we couldn't come to an agreement. I'd like some feedback here if possible, to bring back with me if this pops up again. Skip to the bottom for points that require clarification.
Point of conflict:
[Spoiler omitted]
The following is a summary of my opinions on the matter. A much shorter summary of my opposition will follow.
Starting with the third paragraph, these points:
[Spoiler omitted]
mean to me,...jcheung2017-06-26T17:58:03Z