So i just saw that kitsune can get fox shape at level 1 with Superior Shapeshifter. Any good ideas on character builds that are gastalt that is using fox Shape alot.
Fox shape gives you +10 stealth in total so i was thinking of a "Fox" burglar or something like that. Get in like a fox then find the item i want to still and turn in to normal form grab it and turn back in to a fox. So the item melds in to the body for an easy escape.
We have a house rule that creatures that have spell like ability's to turn in to a shape can use magic in the shapes.
Vexing dodger rogue
Sounds interesting :)
I remember reading about a bird build that used that class and one swashbuckler archetype or something like that. Do anyone remember witch one it is`?
Edit..
found it Mouser. one level there will give me
"Underfoot Assault (Ex): At 1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser’s is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker’s space. This movement does not count against the mouser’s movement the next round, and it doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. While the mouser is within a foe’s space, she is considered to occupy her square within that foe’s space.
While the mouser is within her foe’s space, the foe takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks not made against the mouser, and all of the mouser’s allies that are adjacent to both the foe and the mouser are considered to be flanking the foe. The mouser is considered to be flanking the foe whose space she is within if she is adjacent to an ally who is also adjacent to the foe. The mouser can move within her foe’s space and leave the foe’s space unhindered and without provoking attacks of opportunity, but if the foe attempts to move to a position where the mouser is no longer in its space, the movement provokes an attack of opportunity from the mouser. This deed replaces opportune parry and riposte."
that sounds great :)
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Grr there (you can click on him for his build) is a variation on that. He runs into an opponents space or sits on their head , sneak attacks, free dirty trick, blinds them, gives them -4 to hit him, a -6 to hit anyone else, and next round goes to town with a claw claw bite. On paper the damage is kinda meh, but being able to fight from inside an opponents space is an enormous tactical advantage in a melee heavy party. he gets in a LOT more full attacks than most melee i've seen.
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This has inspired me to build a psychic fox.
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That is a cool one...
I'd go for something a little more magical
Maybe a summoner/dragoon fighter for mounted combat as a tiny fox
Or Druid/ranger for playing up the nature and shape shifting aspect and nature focus of kitsune
That and it'd be fun to use your small size and stealth and spells to mess with people
Or warlock vigilante/fighter (choose an archetype that gives up armor training and retains weapon training). Mystic bolts are treated as light one handed weapons, but don't get their damage reduced by being small, but retain the bonus to hit and AC, you might also want to take a few level dip of rouge on the fighter side to get fed to damage because these don't get a stat to damage
So you see a tiny fox charging at you
You think nothing of it until it catches fire and starts shooting lightning from its mouth with devastating accuracy (dex to hit/damage+ upgraded arcane strike+ fighter weapon training and advanced weapon training and bab=damn)
So i just noticed that the fox only has a bite attack. So now i know why barbarian was suggested. To get claws.
So how to get 2 claw attacks is the new question.
Barbarian. Beast totem is one whey.
Bloodrager abyssal blood line.
Sorcerer Dragon and probebly some othere blood lines.
Alchemist feral mutagen
Synthesist summoner but now it's small instead of tiny.
any other wheys to get them?
Edit
Could also use monk or brawler and use unarmed strikes and flurry.
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Editing my initial build
Vigilante (warlock) X/rouge (unchained, vexing dodger) 3/swashbuckler x-3 (start taking rogue levels at level 4 or 6 or so)
primary weapon is 1d6+ 1/4th level+dex+level-3+weapon training+1/5th level +feats for damage , in addition to 2d6 sneak attack (3d6 with a feat)
At 3rd level it's a touch attack that lets you roll an intimidate check as a swift action
Not to mention up to 6th level sorcerer/wizard spells
Ranger can get claws with a bonus feat
"A ranger who selects the natural weapon combat style can take this feat without having to meet the prerequisites (even if he does not select Aspect of the Beast as a bonus feat)." So it doesn't have to be with the bonus feat.
EDIT: a Vigilante [Agathiel or Wildsoul(feline)] can take the feat at 2nd. Wildsoul(ursine) just gets claws at 2nd.
I'm interested to see how people overcome the "unable to talk" problem...
I'm interested to see how people overcome the "unable to talk" problem...
there is a ring for that [eloquence]. Cantrips can fill in to. [creative use of magehand, prestidigitation, ect.]
I'm interested to see how people overcome the "unable to talk" problem...there is a ring for that [eloquence]. Cantrips can fill in to. [creative use of magehand, prestidigitation, ect.]
Cantrips aren't particularly useful in combat. Out of combat, you can just take human/kitsune form.
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I'm interested to see how people overcome the "unable to talk" problem...
Hand a bottle of this to the party. And then don't talk until the party is drunk. But only to one party member.
"Guys...is the fox talking to anyone else?"
Hilarious.
The ring and elixir are good options--tho I like to avoid needing specific gear whenever possible. It's not really that big of a deal--just have to learn to keep my mouth shut in combat. Maybe RP that it is full of bad guy butt cheeks or something...
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Funny event at a con.
We're in a fight, the rogue goes before me. I put my hands into fists (don't want to cheat and use fingers) and signal the rogue. He nods.
"I delay, wait for the fox to enter his square, then i'll five foot up and full sneak attack."
other player "wait.. what.. how the hell did you get that? I thought he wanted you to steal third"
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0h oh oh idea
For the warlock vigilante above. Pretend to be a familiar (see if you can get the DM to let you actually be a familiar)
Edit: better yet, given that you yourself have magic, the person you pretend to be the familiar of doesn't actually have to be able to cast spells them self to make the gimmick work, they just need to invest a bit in bluff and you need to be able to communicate
I asked my GM about Aspect of the Beast. She thinks kitsune should be able to take it. Working in Normal form (not the human one) and Fox form or only in the fox form.
So this is probably how i'm going to get the claw attacks. So they are permanent :)
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tpm4?I-am-vengeance-I-am-the-night-I-am-A-DOG# 1
some ideas thrown around on this page might be helpful. There was a bit of duscussion on the "mockingbird" social talent and whether it could be used to speak in fox form. Gestalt this with any unchained rogue to get dex to damage for free with your tiny paw punches. Vexing dodger would be an option there too.
Or maybe just unchained scaled disciple and phantom thief gestalt. Still has access to mocking bird if your table would let that allow you to functionally speak, dex to damage on your unarmed strikes and prereqs free dragon style get 1.5 or double dex, depending on feat progress and such, coupled with your +2 racial bonus to dex and an extra +4 while in fox shape should add up to solid damage modifier. I'm pretty sure your die roll for punches would stay quite low but oh well. You'd also have a lot of skill ranks, plenty of skill unlocks which you'd receive benefits from early and get half level to those skills, everything save for fly is a class skill. All this would make for the ultimate utility character as well as being an untouchable combat pest.
Editing my initial build
Vigilante (warlock) X/rouge (unchained, vexing dodger) 3/swashbuckler x-3 (start taking rogue levels at level 4 or 6 or so)
primary weapon is 1d6+ 1/4th level+dex+level-3+weapon training+1/5th level +feats for damage , in addition to 2d6 sneak attack (3d6 with a feat)
At 3rd level it's a touch attack that lets you roll an intimidate check as a swift actionNot to mention up to 6th level sorcerer/wizard spells
Apparently it's debatable whether foxes have free hands. Since this seems to be a home game tha shouldn't be too bad of a debate to win though but It's apparently debateable.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tpln?Ok-real-talk-If-Im-a-fox-am-I-considered- to#4
I've seen someone use this and take a couple levels of Mouser (Swashbuckler Archetype).
Do you know why they took more then one level?
I've seen someone use this and take a couple levels of Mouser (Swashbuckler Archetype).Do you know why they took more then one level?
Maybe more sneak attack? Also you can take combat trick twice I think? Pretty sure it's more than normal either way so maybe that and extra combat feats?
If your house rule extends to kineticists using paws rather than hands, an aether element kineticist (telekineticist) is a good start. At-will telekinetic invisibility, telekinetic haul if you want to steal something big, telekinetic finesse to disarm traps without using hands.
On the other side of the gestalt you want more skill points probably, full BAB and/or a good will save. A slayer fills the first two and gets more feats, plus trapfinding if desired. An archaeologist bard gets the skill points and saves, some spells, trapfinding and a few rogue talents. An avenger vigilante gets all three but doesn't get trapfinding or anything like it; it does get potentially some neat combat tricks.
Maybe more sneak attack? Also you can take combat trick twice I think? Pretty sure it's more than normal either way so maybe that and extra combat feats?I've seen someone use this and take a couple levels of Mouser (Swashbuckler Archetype).Do you know why they took more then one level?
Mouser is the swashbuckler archetype. So no SA from there.
If your house rule extends to kineticists using paws rather than hands, an aether element kineticist (telekineticist) is a good start. At-will telekinetic invisibility, telekinetic haul if you want to steal something big, telekinetic finesse to disarm traps without using hands.
On the other side of the gestalt you want more skill points probably, full BAB and/or a good will save. A slayer fills the first two and gets more feats, plus trapfinding if desired. An archaeologist bard gets the skill points and saves, some spells, trapfinding and a few rogue talents. An avenger vigilante gets all three but doesn't get trapfinding or anything like it; it does get potentially some neat combat tricks.
the house rule would work for kineticist.
I just noticed above that you wanted claws. Slayers can pick up ranger combat styles which means they can get aspect of the beast. Avenger vigilantes can take the wildsoul archetype (feline) for Aspect of the Beast too. It does rule out the bard option I think.
A level of mouser swashbuckler on the slayer or vigilante side does seem like a good idea.
I just noticed above that you wanted claws. Slayers can pick up ranger combat styles which means they can get aspect of the beast. Avenger vigilantes can take the wildsoul archetype (feline) for Aspect of the Beast too. It does rule out the bard option I think.
A level of mouser swashbuckler on the slayer or vigilante side does seem like a good idea.
My GM thinks that fox shape should work as a prerequisite for aspect of the beast.
So right now I'm thinking of picking up aspect of the beast at lv 1 and have vexing dodger and mouser as my first level and after that pick vexing dodger every level and some other class. Don't see a lot of value in sticking with mouser.
MY gm talled me that you can have a maximum SA equal to what an not gestalt rogue. this includes hidden stick. So can't get 20d6 SA or 10d6 SA+10d4(8)SA.
So getting it from a 2nd class would just be a waste.
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I don't know how gestalt work, but maybe you might get some inspiration from this build I made. It requires your GM to allow Scaled Fist and Master of Many Styles Monk archetypes to stack, even if RAW they don't because they both "alter" bonus feats (actually Scaled Fist just adds options, so there's no real problem):
2 Scaled Fist/MoMS (Chained) Monk
X Urban/Primalist Bloodrager
Stats:
8 18 14 10 10 16
Traits:
Aldori Caution (+1 AC to fighting defensively)
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Feats:
1 Weapon Finesse
1M Crane Style
2M Dragon Style
3 Piranha Strike
5 Dodge
7 Crane Wing -or- Mobility
9 Swift Kitsune Shapechanger
9BR Toughness
11 Vulpine Pounce
Remarks:
- Chained Monk is good for the good Will save. Since this is a natural attacks build and you lose flurry, you don't really need to be Unchained.
- Draconic Bloodline to get claws while raging
- Primalist Bloodrager gives you rage powers starting from 4th level. Pick the lesser Fiend Totem to get a gore attack and another rage power you like (Superstitious maybe?)
- Dragon Style is important to be able to pounce from level 11.
- The only piece of equipment you really need is an Amulet of Mighty Fists, Agile, to be upgraded up to +3 to overcome DR. Any other item is optional.
- AC per level:
1- 10 + Dex + Cha + fox shape (+4 Dex, +1 Nat Armor) + Tiny size + fighting defensively = 26
3- 26 + Urban Rage + 3 ranks in Acrobatics = 29
5- 29 + Dodge = 30
6- 30 + Mage Armor = 34
7- 34 + Crane Wing -or- Mobility = 38 -or- 38 to avoid AoO while moving
- Add: Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, Dex and Cha boosts to increase AC even more
- At 12th level you can cast Monstrous Extremity, for a total of 6 natural attacks: Bite (1st level), 2 Claws (3rd level), gore (6th level), 2 hooves (12th level), all primary attacks using Dex to hit and damage.
If your GM doesn't allow Scaled Fist and MoMS to stack, go MoMS and put Wis 14, Cha 12. This improves your Will save and Perception checks, although reducing your AC by 1. If you don't care about Bloodrager spellcasting, you could even dump Cha to 7, bump up Wis and use the alternate racial trait that gives you +2 to Int rather than to Cha. Another option is going Scaled Fist and redistribute some feats. However, since now you can't use both styles together and Vulpine Pounce eats your swift action, you have to activate Dragon Style at latest the round BEFORE your charge, which means you have to pay more attention to your position in the battlefield when charging.
gestalt gives you all the special abilites of 2 classes and the best of bab saves and stuff like that.
Forexample i could be a level 1 rogue Vexing Dodger and level 1 swashbuckler Mouser at level one.
I want to use Limb-Climber (Ex) from Vexing Dodger and a one level dip as a mouser gives you Underfoot Assault that helps you protect your allies and All so make it easier for you to flank.
So i'm going 20 Vexing Dodger and 1 swashbuckler Mouser. So i have 19 levels left on one side of my gestalt. I'm thinking barbarian right now but will look at blood rager as well and some of the ones that have been popular here like vigilantly
Why do you need dragon style to be able to pounce at 11.
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This has inspired me to build a psychic fox.
Ever since Blood of the Beast came out, I've been thinking about making a Kitsune Psychic Detective using Keen Kitsune and Superior Shapeshifter. Most psychic spells aren't going to present problems in fox form although some, like Summon Monster, do require a hand for the Focus Component. I think it would make a great scout using knacks like Detect Magic and Sift. At first level I'm looking at a Stealth score of about +17 without using Inspiration. Using Mage Armor I'm looking at a first level AC of about 22 in fox form. Telekinetic Projectile, Flare, or Daze would work for fox form offense at low levels, and the Mind Thrust sequence would probably be my go to spell at higher levels. If I were going to go gestalt, I think I might mix it up with Inspired Blade Swashbuckler.
Spiritualist [Ectoplasmatist/Fractured Mind]/Unchained monk[Scaled Fist/Invested Regent]. Now your fox has 'hands', weapons, cha and dex to AC, armor bonus, 6th level psychic spells, all good saves, full BAB, fast move, ect.
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Why do you need dragon style to be able to pounce at 11.
Because pounce requires a charge, and Dragon Style lets you charge through allies and difficult terrain. Not necessary exactly, but it makes your pouncing more relaible.
If your house rule extends to kineticists using paws rather than hands, an aether element kineticist (telekineticist) is a good start. At-will telekinetic invisibility, telekinetic haul if you want to steal something big, telekinetic finesse to disarm traps without using hands.
On the other side of the gestalt you want more skill points probably, full BAB and/or a good will save. A slayer fills the first two and gets more feats, plus trapfinding if desired. An archaeologist bard gets the skill points and saves, some spells, trapfinding and a few rogue talents. An avenger vigilante gets all three but doesn't get trapfinding or anything like it; it does get potentially some neat combat tricks.
Hmm... I'd probably go kineticist//slayer and buff up the will save. Physical blasts like telekinetic need a decent amount of accuracy, and having a better HD makes it easier to take burn when necessary. Most of the avenger's best talents (eg Lethal Finesse, Shield of Blades, Heavy Armour, Unkillable) seem to be less useful for a kineticist - unless your party houserules Diehard to work better with nonlethal damage in which case Unkillable becomes pretty sweet.
Notably, Kinetic blasts don't depend on size or strength for damage.
So i just noticed that the fox only has a bite attack. So now i know why barbarian was suggested. To get claws.
So how to get 2 claw attacks is the new question.
Bah- a false assumption.
There are ways to make a single bite build good.
Champion spirit Mediums are fantastic for this. They get an extra attack in class, and they have haste on their spell list (preferable if someone else does it, of course). Add their base attack, and a hurtful/cornugon build, and you could get 4 attacks- all at full BAB.
Now, you can rip out each and every one of the enemy's tendons with just a bite. You get more attacks than bite/claw/claw, and you could try to aim for a str/power attack build to get x1.5 bonuses on each of those attacks (x6 total across all 4? Or about the same value as most natural attack builds with as many attacks as typically possible?)
Admittedly, this might work better for a big wolf build than a tiny fox build (since you are dealing with dex stuff, obviously).
I will make a Rogue vexing dodger 20 levels. also swashbuckler mouser 1 level. But after that i'm unsure. thinking on barbarian right now.
Edit.
i could change from vexing dodger to a different class after level 8 or 4. As long as it has SA.
I know that Alchemist can get full SA progresion and that "Accomplished Sneak Attacker" would make the loss of SA less bad from classes like slayer.
I looked at rogue telnet there was not a lot of good ones.
So i will have 4 levels of rogue so i get debilitating strike.
I asked my GM and Vigilanty Stalker can have Sneak attack instead of hidden strike if i want. So i will level
1 Rogue
2 Vigilante
3 Vigilante
4 Rogue
5 Rogue
6 Rogue
7 Vigilante
8 Vigilante
9 Vigilante
and then more Vigilante.
my 2nd class as a gestalt will be.
1 Swashbuckler Mouser
2 barbarian (probably, i don't find anything better)
3 barbarian (probably, i don't find anything better)
4 barbarian (probably, i don't find anything better)
5 barbarian (probably, i don't find anything better)
6 barbarian (probably, i don't find anything better)
7 barbarian (probably, i don't find anything better)
8 barbarian (probably, i don't find anything better)
9 barbarian (probably, i don't find anything better)
I could go to level 8 rogue if my dirty tricks have trouble landing. my SA dice as a bonuses to CMB
is it worth it to level to level 8 rogue to get.
Distracting Climber (Ex)
At 8th level, when a vexing dodger attempts a dirty trick maneuver against a creature she’s climbing, she gets a bonus on the combat maneuver check equal to the number of sneak attack dice she has.
If she chooses to sicken the target with her dirty trick and succeeds at her combat maneuver check, the target must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw (DC = 10 + 1/2 the vexing dodger’s level + her Intelligence modifier) or be nauseated for 1 round.
This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.
So the big thing there is the bonus to cmb for dirty tricks. I will use the blinding one the most to get SA and Savage Dirty Trick blind gives the target the Staggered condition.
So go with rogue to level 8 and gain 4-10 bonus on dirty tricks or only take 4 levels rogue and get more vigilant talants?
Do i need the CMB bonus to hit with with dirty tricks? or can i manage with out it?
there is no list of CMD for monsters over levels so i can't see if i need it or not at a glance.