Help my player find a class.


Advice


I'm going to start an Adventure Path in two weeks, and one player wants to emulate a very specific build. I'm fine with some houserules (I even introduced the feat tax reductions to smooth things out a little), but I still want to be based on first-party material. Meanwhile, he wants to pretty much build a character class from the ground up, and I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with that. I'm posting here not to swat the idea away entirely, but see if the Paizo hivemind can come up with a more elegant solution.

The player wants to emulate a Warlord from D&D 4.0. Basically, he's a support attacker that gives out buffs and sometimes even extra attacks. To that end, he wants an Evangelist Cleric that multiclasses into Bloodrager with the Id Rager archetype, with the Kindness focus (basically, if the Id Rager hits, someone can spend an immediate action to also hit the opponent). That way, when he hits an enemy, someone else can make an attack as well. But the build is incredibly MAD and feat intensive (he wants access to heavy armour, so that's two feats, and at least one martial weapon), so he's looking for other things. He's offered a semi-custom class that's basically a form of "if I hit a dude, you get to hit the dude as well," with a limited number of points, so he can't do it forever. But I'm not sure if Pathfinder can really cope with handing out extra attacks like that.

I don't immediately want to say no, so I also offered him some alternatives, like the following:
- Variant multiclassing. Instead of taking class features, he can get an extra use of the Id Rager ability to hand out extra attacks. I'm running Wrath of the Righteous, and he's afraid people won't use his ability, as a lot of Mythic abilities are also a swift action to activate.
- An X amount of uses per day where he can "give" his standard action to someone else. He seems to want to use his standard action as well.
- A Bard chassis where he can trigger certain things depending on the die roll. 13th Age did an interesting thing where the Bard could trigger actions when he attacked in combat (spending a healing surge, engage/disengage an enemy, grant temporary HP or AC, and so on), but he didn't like that since he wants to control when it happens.

I basically treated the above options as archetypes, exchanging class features for these features. The Cleric build could lose all his channel dice, for instance (he's already losing 3 to Evangelist), and Bards have tons of class features to lose, like Versatile Performance, spells per level, various Performances, even Performance rounds. Those seem pretty reasonable to me. He wants to take an Evangelist, and do either of the following (or both):
- Lose his second Domain as well, effectively leaving him without Domains and Domain spells, and Domain powers (except for the Heroism subdomain level 8 power, as he really wants to dole out Heroisms).
- Remove pretty much all the spells from the Cleric spell list, except status removal spells and Cure spells.

To me, that pretty much removes all of the functionality of a Cleric and basically creates a new class entirely.

I've already offered the Skald class as an alternative, and I just thought of the Cult Totem power that would suit him nicely. But in that example, it's a one per day per person ability, and that shows how hesitant I am about implementing this (and it's at level 6 as well). I'm not really sure if granting him a similar ability at level 1 is such a great idea (he's also dipped Id Rager (Kindness) for a character in PFS for the same reason). If he takes Id Rager he'll have to spread his stats way too much to really be effective, and he'll have to choose between spellcasting or attacking.

Any ideas how he could realise this build without reworking too much? I think my alternatives all seem pretty reasonable, but I don't immediately want to overrule him. The rest of the party consists of a Swashbuckler, a Summoner, a Sorcerer, and a last guy who's either going Cleric or Occultist, depending on which is needed for the party.

EDIT: I think I've already come to the conclusion that I don't want any "free attacks" as a non-mythic ability. The D&D Warlord powers the player named aren't really compatible with Pathfinder (they really break action economy), and the Marshal mythic ability pretty much does exactly what he wants.


Battle Herald.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/advanced-players-guide/ba ttle-herald/

Start off with a Standard Bearer Cavalier (to start providing some bonuses) with variant multiclassing bard. This gives him both Challenge and Inspire Courage.

Gets him heavy armor, full BaB, and can give inspiring buffs to the party.


I'm not very good at building classes but I thought its worth mentioning I don't think giving someone an attack when you attack would brake anything unless it worked with iterative attacks.

Grand Lodge

The Constable [Cavelier archetype] at 11th lvl gives the cavalier an ability to make an ally move or attack, but are dazed their next turn.

There is the Assault Leader rogue talent that enables a flanking party member to attack, if the rogue misses an attack.

Dark Archive

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
I'm not very good at building classes but I thought its worth mentioning I don't think giving someone an attack when you attack would brake anything unless it worked with iterative attacks.

Quentin Coldwater send me the build and the proposed changes to look over an hour ago, and it's not just a simple attack from an ally (I mean, the Kindness Id Rager does just that).

That ability at lvl 1 isn't just an attack after he connects with his attack. It allows an ally to 5ft step and attack at full bab + ally's modifiers + ability user's Charisma stat, all as a free action for said ally (no immediate, no AoO consumption). And at later levels (for more points, but still), when he's hit as, an immediate action he can counter and allow an ally to move its full speed and then attack, as a free action for said ally. Or have more allies than just 1 attack from the position they are in at that moment, as a free action for those allies.

There is no consequence for the allies to partake in it, and he moves them around like crazy. All the while he is using Inspiring Courage. It's just a bit much, especially on the Evangelist Cleric chassis.


A skirmisher Ranger also can learn weird Combat tricks.

Grumbaki wrote:

Battle Herald.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/advanced-players-guide/ba ttle-herald/

Start off with a Standard Bearer Cavalier (to start providing some bonuses) with variant multiclassing bard. This gives him both Challenge and Inspire Courage.

Gets him heavy armor, full BaB, and can give inspiring buffs to the party.

This is probably the best build here.

Order of the Dragon would be the obvious pick for more support abilities.

If he does not ming being a halfling, he could pick up the helpful trait as well.

The Flagbearer feat would be good for such a character as well, especially if you let him find the Banner of the Ancient Kings later on. A Courageous weapon could complete his build.


would anything from dreamscar press be what he might be looking for? cuz i know there's a warlord class from path of war that looks similar to what hes asking for


I'll go see if he's interested in the Battle Herald, that indeed looks pretty cool!

As for whether giving out attacks is overpowered or not, I've played a D&D 4 oneshot as a Warlord once, 4.0 feels really different from Pathfinder, aside from the obvious combat system. The Warlord offers a lot of tactical movement I think Pathfinder isn't really designed to handle. From what I've seen, enemies scale differently in 4.0 compared to Pathfinder. Action economy is totally out of whack for this. I mean, it's what the Warlord was supposed to do, but I think 4.0 kept the class in the back of its mind when designing the system. Plopping that class into Pathfinder leads to a lot of munchkin-y gameplay I'm trying to avoid in my AP. He suggested an amount of points equal to 3+ his level, but I thought once every three or four levels was already kinda generous. I think 4.0's power level is generally higher than Pathfinder's. I mean, the Kindness Id Rager already does that, but it's a standard action to use. After level 5, that power becomes much less powerful, as you'd rather full attack, I think. But up to that point, woo, that's powerful.

And added to that, there's a reason why actually handing out free attacks is a Mythic ability. Wouldn't want that to happen in a regular game, much less on a regular basis.

Lady-J: I already said I'd prefer to stick to Paizo-only, as that's what I'm familiar and comfortable with.

Silver Crusade

Mr. Bonkers wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
I'm not very good at building classes but I thought its worth mentioning I don't think giving someone an attack when you attack would brake anything unless it worked with iterative attacks.

Quentin Coldwater send me the build and the proposed changes to look over an hour ago, and it's not just a simple attack from an ally (I mean, the Kindness Id Rager does just that).

That ability at lvl 1 isn't just an attack after he connects with his attack. It allows an ally to 5ft step and attack at full bab + ally's modifiers + ability user's Charisma stat, all as a free action for said ally (no immediate, no AoO consumption). And at later levels (for more points, but still), when he's hit as, an immediate action he can counter and allow an ally to move its full speed and then attack, as a free action for said ally. Or have more allies than just 1 attack from the position they are in at that moment, as a free action for those allies.

There is no consequence for the allies to partake in it, and he moves them around like crazy. All the while he is using Inspiring Courage. It's just a bit much, especially on the Evangelist Cleric chassis.

As the player in question, I am a bit surprised to read this paragraph

"That ability at lvl 1 isn't just an attack after he connects with his attack. It allows an ally to 5ft step and attack at full bab + ally's modifiers + ability user's Charisma stat, all as a free action for said ally (no immediate, no AoO consumption). And at later levels (for more points, but still), when he's hit as, an immediate action he can counter and allow an ally to move its full speed and then attack, as a free action for said ally. Or have more allies than just 1 attack from the position they are in at that moment, as a free action for those allies."

since something that powerfull isn't in what I sent. You'd only get something like that if you added every single proposed ability together into one ability which would be usuable with like 5 different effects, which would be extremely overpowered. If it is somehow read like that, then my aoplogies but I thought it was fairly clear they were seperate abilities.

Regardless, i'm going to look into the battle herald and how it works with the variant multiclassing rule. I'd assume the idea is that the fifth player plays the cleric then instead of the occultist since there is no healer for the party otherwise.

On the granting of attacks to others and whether it's overpowered or not, I think people might be overrating it compared to summoning, especially past the first 5 or so levels (afaik this is a 20 level campaign). At level 8, I've seen a cleric capable of summoning 12 or so lantern archons over 3 turns which were then buffed by the heroism subdomain and attacked a total of 24 or so times with ranged touch attacks over the same time period, basically soloing the final encounter in the latest pfs special without any need for help from anyone else in the party. It was... well... not a very satisfying experience to anyone else at the table, I believe.
This summoning style would however be what the evangelist would specialise in when his caster level becomes higher, since it is his most/only? viable offensive option instead of being purely reactionary.

I guess the point of this is that there are much more broken things in the game than someone able to grant additional attacks to a teammate on a limited resources model. Which, yes, probably isn't a a good benchmark when designing new things. And yes, i'll admit i might be biased by nostalgia and a desire to play a warlord again, making me less objective, but the point regarding summoning seeming a lot more powerfull to me still seems valid. That aside, since Kwinten has already said that it isn't allowed, I'll drop the issue and move on.

Edit: I would additionally like to thank everyone for voicing their ideas for the character I'll be playing for a while and for Kwinten for suggesting to use houserules and consequently not immediately disregarding the suggestion I put forward. It's highly appreciated.


Summoning is indeed pretty oppressive. I nearly made a character for PFS that could standard-action flood the battlefield, and I decided I wouldn't do that. I think it needs a certain awareness of whether it's justified. I wasn't at your table during the special, but I think 12 Lantern Archons is just a bit overkill. Hell, I've recently seen 147 Lantern Archons take down a big boss that should've been practically immortal. Long story, not relevant. I'm going to rein in summoning if that gets out of hand, make sure of that.

Still though, being a Cleric doesn't mean you need to be passive. Horror Adventures gave the Cleric some nice goodies. Boneshaker is a level 2 spell that scales really well, and the upgraded Boneshatter existed for a while now and is equally impressive. There's Rigor Mortis at level 4, Holy Javelin at 3, Burst of Radiance is a personal favourite, and you might get some damaging spells if you choose the right domain. Yeah, the Cleric spell list is mostly reactive, but with the right selection, you can be a pretty effective blaster.


An order of the Dragon Cavalier gains the ability to grant their allies a free move action. The Cavalier itself is a decent chassis for an armoured martial character that buffs others and, if he really wanted to double down he could invest in the Standard Bearer and Strategist archetypes. Combo that all up with a Heraldic Shield and the Human favored class bonus for Cavaliers and you have a martial focused on buffing his team.


Whenever Ive tried to build MC characters, I've always regretted it around Lv5-6!

Silver Crusade

Quentin Coldwater wrote:

Summoning is indeed pretty oppressive. I nearly made a character for PFS that could standard-action flood the battlefield, and I decided I wouldn't do that. I think it needs a certain awareness of whether it's justified. I wasn't at your table during the special, but I think 12 Lantern Archons is just a bit overkill. Hell, I've recently seen 147 Lantern Archons take down a big boss that should've been practically immortal. Long story, not relevant. I'm going to rein in summoning if that gets out of hand, make sure of that.

Still though, being a Cleric doesn't mean you need to be passive. Horror Adventures gave the Cleric some nice goodies. Boneshaker is a level 2 spell that scales really well, and the upgraded Boneshatter existed for a while now and is equally impressive. There's Rigor Mortis at level 4, Holy Javelin at 3, Burst of Radiance is a personal favourite, and you might get some damaging spells if you choose the right domain. Yeah, the Cleric spell list is mostly reactive, but with the right selection, you can be a pretty effective blaster.

Aren't those types of bone spells restricted to evil clerics?


Nope! Boneshaker and Bone Shatter have the Necromancy spell descriptor, but aren't inherently evil. They have a nasty vibe to them, but won't cause you to fall if you use them in battle. Similarly, Rigor Mortis has the [pain] descriptor, that's only relevant to things immune to pain. No evil tags anywhere. The spells are nasty, directly attacking the body, but in essence it's the same effect as Cone of Cold: you produce a damaging effect. The flavour's different, but since it has no alignment descriptors, apparently Iomedae is fine with it.


as you're running WotR that means he's gonna get mythic tiers start at lvl 6 - the Warden base ability decisive strike gives an ally within 30ft an attack that bypasses DR and adds tier to attack roll, the ability is a swift action and costs 1 mythic power to do.
Marshal seems a lot about helping allies, like warlord from 4e is, there's also the mythic version of heroic finale from Legendary games mythic spell compendium (basically contains almost all of the spells that weren't given mythic versions) that gives an ally either full round action or 2 actions otherwise (the non-mythic version gives 1 action I think)


Your player wants a needlessly complicated skald?

IMHO handing out pounce is the same as handing out extra attacks.


Quentin Coldwater wrote:
Nope! Boneshaker and Bone Shatter have the Necromancy spell descriptor, but aren't inherently evil. They have a nasty vibe to them, but won't cause you to fall if you use them in battle. Similarly, Rigor Mortis has the [pain] descriptor, that's only relevant to things immune to pain. No evil tags anywhere. The spells are nasty, directly attacking the body, but in essence it's the same effect as Cone of Cold: you produce a damaging effect. The flavour's different, but since it has no alignment descriptors, apparently Iomedae is fine with it.

Yup. I don't see any difference with them than say...throwing a fireball at someone. Shaking someone's bones is less evil than setting someone on fire how?


I know you said Paizo stuff, but this is exactly what Path of War does, I personally highly recommend it and I think you would find it a nice addition to your game. The Path of War classes and manuerers are on d20 pfsrd.

If you don't want to go the whole class route, Path of War has feats that give manuevers, and the manuevers can create a variety of effects, some of them are quite a bit like 4th Edition Warlord powers. It should be fairly simple to use what they have already made as a starting point, pick the particular manuevers you think work, and then figure out how many 'feats' that is worth. You could then either trade out feats or class features for these, or make it into a VMC or something similar, but you would have the advantage of starting with some playtested mechanics.

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