As best I can tell, there are no explicit rules for riding familiars as mounts, thus, they work just like normal mounts. Ride is not Handle Animal. You can direct it to do as you say, but controlling it as a rider isn't quite the same as giving it commands and letting it know your intentions.
If that weren't true, then it would mean any rider could take three levels of Wizard to get a Mauler Familiar to ride on so they don't need to make ride checks. I don't think that's how they would want that to work.
Side note: you accidentally posted the same topic here twice. You should probably delete one of them. : P
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Normally, you would use the Ride skill to ride on an animal, and not Handle Animal. Now a familiar wouldn't have any tricks so it can't be trained for riding, but I don't think it would need tricks, as it's an intelligent magical beast anyway.
Are you sure you want to go for Arcane Archer though? I don't think it would progress your familiar, so it might lack in Strength and AC. I like the idea of a Gnome riding a giant hare though. It would fit perfectly into the Gnome Liberation Front game I'm prepping.
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I have a Wayang who rides his Mauler Owl familiar in PFS.
As far as I know the rules aren't clear. I've been assuming that it just works.
So far, I haven't had a GM complain.
A few major things, though
1) I don't do it in combat much if at all. The Owl is WAY too fragile and I prefer to be able to hide if the opportunity arises (Arcane Trickster). So it doesn't affect the game much. Its largely there for flavour as it lets my character avoid undignified things like climb checks, getting dirty on overland travel, etc.
2) It is not at all integral to the character. If a GM balked at it I'd just stop doing it for that session.
But it really isn't THAT powerful, at least past level 5 or so. You could buy a dire bat for a similar effect, or scrolls of fly.
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I'm not entirely sure on how the mounted combat rules apply to a familiar as a mount?
The same as any purchased animal or Animal Companion or even another PC.
It's all covered under the Ride skill.
You want to max out your ranks in Ride. Ride is what allows *you* to attack while riding a mount. Many people get that wrong, IME.
Do note that your PFS GM has 100% leeway to rule that your hare is not a "suitable mount", and may incur the –5 penalty to Ride checks. It probably won't come up, but I've seen it happen.
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I had an idea for a gnome arcane archer that rides her hare familiar thanks to the Mauler familiar archetype (which turns it into a medium-sized magical beast at 3rd level)
Doing some research, I'm not entirely sure on how the mounted combat rules apply to a familiar as a mount? Normally I don't need to make handle animal checks to tell a familiar what to do, so what checks do I need to make to ride a familiar, especially in combat? Handle animal seems to suggest that it can't even be used on magical beasts without the Unchained skill unlock.
Please answer with RAW only, as this is intended to be a PFS character and thus cannot benefits from GM's being "reasonable" or using "common sense."
Correct, Handle Animal doesn't normally apply to Magical Beasts. It's Ride, that you need to "Ride" a mount. As for ordering them, the deal is that Magical Beasts are intelligent enough where you can just ask them to do something, rather than needing to train them as per Handle Animal. They may also just do it, without being asked.
The flip side is that as an intelligent creature, your familiar could refuse. I suggest Diplomacy for "ordering" a familiar, though intimidate could also be used. You will need a shared language for these skills (empathic link isn't enough). You could also obtain Telepathy from somewhere, to meet the shared language requirement.
Additionally, this means that many Handle Animal abilities, like Calming a Frightened mount, are not availible. You may need an alternate means to accomplish many of the things that Handle Animal would normally cover.
Regarding Mounted Combat, technically, the familiar is an NPC that acts on it's own initiative (despite being a class feature of your Character). You could, on your turn ask it to do something, and it may do that on their turn. This may require readied actions (like waiting until it enlarges for you to mount it).
Many GMs houserule Familiars and Companions to act on your intiative, which eliminates the need for this sort of readied action, but it is certainly a houserule.
Additionally, there are notable penalties for making ranged attacks or casting spells while mounted. Look those up, if you haven't already. Mounted Combat, in general, is often a long feat chain to make effective, so the familiar route is often not the best.
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RAW mindset doesn't interface very well at all with the Pathfinder mounted combat rules.
Perhaps the best way to handle an intelligent mount is through Leadership or Cohorts, but neither of which are PFS appropriate. Then again perhaps Ride will work just fine, as Paladin mounts (which are arguably indirectly classified as Magical Beasts based on their 6 int) are routinely governened by the Ride skill by PFS GMs.
One problem the RAW mindset will never over reconcile with regards to Mounted Combat is how the mount and rider are simultaneously one entity but yet still two distinct entities. There are a handful of explicit times where the mount+rider case is now one entity and a few where the rules still treat them as two.. but for everything other than those explicit cases it's all RAI/interpretation. If RAW and only RAW is a concern for you, then mounted combat isn't for you.
I've played PFS plenty of times with Cavaliers as one of my favorite clases. In my experience there's been less issues with different GMs having different interpretations of how mounted combat is "supposed" to work than I have with the lighting/darkness rules, for example.
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I'm not entirely sure on how the mounted combat rules apply to a familiar as a mount?The same as any purchased animal or Animal Companion or even another PC.
It's all covered under the Ride skill.
I disagree that the ride skill covers this. The ride skill is for guiding mounts, not intelligent creatures.
For example, there is pretty clearly NOT any RAW interpretation for a halfling PC riding a PC barbarian. The Ride skill MAY apply but it certainly may NOT. I'd expect most GMs (even in PFS) to disallow the rider using the Mounted Combat feat, I'd expect most GMs to allow the "mount" to act from voice commands, I'd expect that almost all GMs would allow the "mount" to actually make its own decision where to go, etc etc etc.
I disagree that the ride skill covers this. The ride skill is for guiding mounts, not intelligent creatures.
If you go that route, handle animal does nothing either.
Animal type: "Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal)"
Handle animal skill: "You can use this skill on a creature with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 that is not an animal"
However, look at the ride skill: "You are skilled at riding mounts, usually a horse, but possibly something more exotic, like a griffon or pegasus."
Pegasus: Int 10
griffon: int 5
So it seems like the ride skill disagrees with you on it not working with intelligent creatures...
Ride is far more than just getting the animal to do what you want.
Note it doesn't say animal but mount and the examples include intelligent magic beasts...
@graystone: I apologize for not being sufficiently clear; my point was merely that the Ride skill is more about the rider than the mount.
No worries. I got the point but i wanted to correct the animal part. I didn't want someone to get the idea the skill actually said animal as there has been some confusion over what constitutes a mount.
Easiest solution : teach it to understand what your leg movments mean. If a horse can figure it out, so can a smarter creature. Then just make ride checks.
It can ignore you, of course, but is your dm in the habit of making your familiar act antagonistically?
Hell, it uses your skill ranks, right? It is exactly as knowledgeable as you are about what all that flailing your doing is supposed to be about.
Just make sure you have those ranks. Don't you hate it when your familiar rolls a 1 for its skills?
(Personally, I'd worry a little about your familiar being targeted -- rules are weird sometimes on riding but Fireball tends to sweep it all under the rug.)
Please answer with RAW only, as this is intended to be a PFS character and thus cannot benefits from GM's being "reasonable" or using "common sense."
This is not how PFS works.
PFS is not some insane sola raw machine that interprets the rules by some sorting algorithm. The DM interprets the rules the same way in pfs as they do anywhere else, with their own personal blend of raw, rai, sense, reason,power levels and competing bits of evidence.
RAW in PFS is "run as written." The scenario. Don't add monsters, don't increase the dcs, don't screw over the players with stuff that isn't there.
A familiar should be one size larger than you, otherwise you'll need the undersized mount feat.
There's technically nothing in the core rules that says a mount has to be a size larger than you, but the undersized mount rule says that thats the normal rule.
The familiar should be a quadraped, or something someone on golarion rides around on. Otherwise you might get the -5 ill suited mount penalty.
There is no absolute raw that specifically says that you can or you can not ride your familiar, but there's simply no good argument that says you can't.
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I disagree that the ride skill covers this. The ride skill is for guiding mounts, not intelligent creatures.If you go that route, handle animal does nothing either.
Given that my point is that the rules do NOT cover this clearly, I take it that you're supporting me by providing more examples of the rules being unclear?
Given that my point is that the rules do NOT cover this clearly, I take it that you're supporting me by providing more examples of the rules being unclear?I disagree that the ride skill covers this. The ride skill is for guiding mounts, not intelligent creatures.If you go that route, handle animal does nothing either.
Nope, it's super, duper clear. The Riding skill examples covers creatures from int 1 to 10. As such, riding covers intelligent mounts. As handle animal doesn't work on int 3+ creatures, it's normally impossible to have them be "combat riding" mounts so you always have to Control Mount in Battle move action. The Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount free action is only for int 1-2 creatures. Otherwise, riding works as/is.
That's pretty much it: all covered. the only difference between a pegasus and an ogre is the ogre is likely not a "suitable mount", and may incur the –5 penalty to Ride checks. [the pegasus, a known acceptable mount, have an int 4 higher than the orge...]
Correct, Handle Animal doesn't normally apply to Magical Beasts.
That's not true. Handle animal cares ONLY about int of a creature. As such any creature with an int of 1-2 falls under Handle Animals. "Special: You can use this skill on a creature with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 that is not an animal, but the DC of any such check increases by 5." For instance, an Ankheg or Bunyip could be trained with it, as they have an int of 1-2, even though it's a magic beast.
It's Ride, that you need to "Ride" a mount. As for ordering them, the deal is that Magical Beasts are intelligent enough where you can just ask them to do something, rather than needing to train them as per Handle Animal. They may also just do it, without being asked.
The flip side is that as an intelligent creature, your familiar could refuse. I suggest Diplomacy for "ordering" a familiar, though intimidate could also be used.
Under riding it has example of mounts which include int's up to 10. As such, the skill works just fine on higher int creatures. "You are skilled at riding mounts, usually a horse, but possibly something more exotic, like a griffon or pegasus."
Griffon: int 5Pegasus: int 10
So riding an ogre uses the ride skill, you'll just most likely have it rules an inappropriate mount.
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Please answer with RAW only, as this is intended to be a PFS character and thus cannot benefits from GM's being "reasonable" or using "common sense."This is not how PFS works.
PFS is not some insane sola raw machine that interprets the rules by some sorting algorithm. The DM interprets the rules the same way in pfs as they do anywhere else, with their own personal blend of raw, rai, sense, reason,power levels and competing bits of evidence.
RAW in PFS is "run as written." The scenario. Don't add monsters, don't increase the dcs, don't screw over the players with stuff that isn't there.
+1
I completely don’t understand why this is seemingly perpetually confused.
It’s the opposite of Habeline’s understanding. PFS GM are encouraged to interpret the rules as they see them working and intent is a big part of that. If they know of an official FAQ they should follow that. Otherwise the GM is in charge of interpretation and may easily ignore a forum “consensus” if it doesn’t match their rules understanding. Especially considering not every thread is long enough to catch all readers attention.
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Correct, Handle Animal doesn't normally apply to Magical Beasts.That's not true. Handle animal cares ONLY about int of a creature. As such any creature with an int of 1-2 falls under Handle Animals. "Special: You can use this skill on a creature with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 that is not an animal, but the DC of any such check increases by 5." For instance, an Ankheg or Bunyip could be trained with it, as they have an int of 1-2, even though it's a magic beast.
I don't mind being wrong, but are you sure Handle Animal applies to non-animals? Seems abundantly clear, within the PRD description, that handle animal is designed to function on animals. There is a special note regarding using it with low INT other creatures, but that is certainly not the focus of the skill or the "only" thing that Handle animal cares about. Plus, the Familiar *should* have a INT too high to qualify for this (they start at INT 6, after all).
I don't mind being wrong, but are you sure Handle Animal applies to non-animals
I'm 100% sure. All you have to do is follow the link YOU made to the skill and look at the special section and you'll see the quote I had in my last post. The ONLY thing skill cares about to work is the creatures INT: type, size, ect doesn't matter. It comes out and tells you... "You can use this skill on a creature with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 that is not an animal": The only difference between creature types is the DC's, nothing else.
It'd be more accurate to call it 'Creature Training' and give a -5 DC to checks with animals...
As to familiars... I wasn't making a point on them, just pointing out your mistake.
Special: You can use this skill on a creature with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 that is not an animal, but the DC of any such check increases by 5. Such creatures have the same limit on tricks known as animals do.
Unfortunately, the familiar doesn't count as an animal for effects and it has an intelligence over 2. So you can't target it with handle animal.