Dreadnought Barbarian Archetype and Greater / Mighty rage


Rules Questions


Does the Dreadnought barbarian Dead Calm also cuts the bonuses from Greater and Mighty rage by half?

Meaning +1/+1 on str/cons on each one of the usual +2/+2

I would think that it doens't, because the level 1(dead calm) ability only alter Rage, meaning the base +4/+4 rage, not the +2/+2 increases from greater and mitghy rage. Many other paizo Archetypes proved that Mighty and Greater rage a separeted abilities from Rage all together, by not granting then when you get Rage (Like the viking for figther or wild stalker for ranger), so considering you are able to get rage and not Mighty or greater rage from other places, i would assume that a ability that alter Rage doens't alter Migthy or greater rage. Am i worng?


Rhuan wrote:

Does the Dreadnought barbarian Dead Calm also cuts the bonuses from Greater and Mighty rage by half?

Meaning +1/+1 on str/cons on each one of the usual +2/+2

I would think that it doens't, because the level 1(dead calm) ability only alter Rage, meaning the base +4/+4 rage, not the +2/+2 increases from greater and mitghy rage. Many other paizo Archetypes proved that Mighty and Greater rage a separeted abilities from Rage all together, by not granting then when you get Rage (Like the viking for figther or wild stalker for ranger), so considering you are able to get rage and not Mighty or greater rage from other places, i would assume that a ability that alter Rage doens't alter Migthy or greater rage. Am i worng?

Yes they do halve them as well.

I am not sure I understand your question but Greater and Mighty Rage each raise the bonuses you gain while raging. This would result in the +6 from Greater Rage to be reduced to +3 and Mighty's +8 down to +4.

Silver Crusade

It's because Dead Calm only mentions Rage and not the later abilities, nor does the Archetype have anything to replace or alter Greater or Mighty Rage.


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Dead Calm wrote:
A dreadnought can enter a dispassionate killing spree as a free action, granting her additional combat prowess. The dreadnought gains only half the usual bonuses from her rage but takes no penalty to her AC, can use all her normal skills and effects that require concentration, and is not fatigued when her rage ends. The dreadnought cannot enter a rage for 1 minute after she ends her rage, and she cannot charge or run while under the effects of her rage.
Greater Rage wrote:
Greater Rage (Ex): At 11th level, when a barbarian enters rage, the morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution increases to +6 and the morale bonus on her Will saves increases to +3.
Mighty Rage wrote:
At 20th level, when a barbarian enters rage, the morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution increases to +8 and the morale bonus on her Will saves increases to +4.

Greater and Mighty Rage both specifically state that they apply when the barbarian enters Rage. You don't enter a Greater Rage or Mighty Rage. You enter rage and Greater Rage or Mighty Rage just changes the usual bonus you get for doing so. Dead Calm changes rage so that you only get half the usual bonus from Rage. So if you have Greater Rage and use your Rage ability the usual bonus is +6 but Dead Calm halves the usual bonus so it drops to +3.

Silver Crusade

Still, Greater and Mighty Rage are separate abilities from Rage (as evidenced by the Archetypes that trade them out*) and the fact the abilities say the bonuses increase to +_

I don't lean any which way in particular, since the archetype is vague enough that there is support for both views. Dead Calm modifies Rage, yes, but if it modified Greater and Mighty Rage it should have also stated so.

*Flesheater and Mooncursed for Barbarians, Prowler at World's End for Bloodragers


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Rysky wrote:

Still, Greater and Mighty Rage are separate abilities from Rage (as evidenced by the Archetypes that trade them out*) and the fact the abilities say the bonuses increase to +_

I don't lean any which way in particular, since the archetype is vague enough that there is support for both views. Dead Calm modifies Rage, yes, but if it modified Greater and Mighty Rage it should have also stated so.

*Flesheater and Mooncursed for Barbarians, Prowler at World's End for Bloodragers

Dead Calm doesn't need to mention altering Greater or Mighty Rage.

Dead Calm wrote:
A dreadnought can enter a dispassionate killing spree as a free action, granting her additional combat prowess. The dreadnought gains only half the usual bonuses from her rage but takes no penalty to her AC, can use all her normal skills and effects that require concentration, and is not fatigued when her rage ends. The dreadnought cannot enter a rage for 1 minute after she ends her rage, and she cannot charge or run while under the effects of her rage.

Greater Rage and Mighty Rage both modify the base Rage.

Greater Rage wrote:
At 11th level, when a barbarian enters rage, the morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution increases to +6 and the morale bonus on her Will saves increases to +3.
Mighty Rage wrote:
t 20th level, when a barbarian enters rage, the morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution increases to +8 and the morale bonus on her Will saves increases to +4.

They both just increase the base Rage ability to give a higher bonus.

Since Dead Calm only allows half the normal bonus from Rage. Later when Greater/Mighty Rage increases the amount of the bonus given, Dead Calm would still half it.

Rage grants +4/+4 and Dead Calm halves it to +2/+2.

Rage later grants +6/+6 once you have Greater Rage. Dead Calm still says you only get half the bonus so it turns to +3/+3.

Your example given (Flesheater, Mooncursed, and Prowler) all alter the ability (Greater Rage/Mighty Rage) in a way that is thoroughly different from the normal Rage mechanics.

Mooncursed changes doesn't even give the normal Rage bonus. It transforms you with Beast Shape I. So Greater/Mighty Rage have to be altered or they wouldn't do anything at all.

Flesheater adds new mechanics to Greater/Mighty and so need to be altered as well. Same with Prowler at World's End.

Dreadnought doesn't alter Greater/Mighty since it still follows the normal bonus progression for Rage.

Greater Rage and Mighty Rage both just add onto what Rage does, so if Dead Calm says only half the normal bonus it has to effect those abilities as appropriate.

So a Dreadnought with Mighty Rage would only get +4 STR/+4 CON and +2 Will.

Silver Crusade

Then it really it should have said "this ability alters Rage, Mighty Rage, and Greater Rage" since those are three separate abilities that build off each other.

Was it probably intended to cut them all by half? Most likely, but I won't argue with someone thinks it does not.

As for the archetypes I was pointing out that Rage, Greater Rage, and Mighty Rage are separate abilities that can be modified and replaced, which you just repeated. Dead Calm should have had language stating that it modifies all three abilities.

Flesheater and Prowler add new mechanics for Greater and Mighty and call out the change.

To provide some better examples that I found, look at Urban,

Controlled Rage (Ex) wrote:
When an urban barbarian rages, instead of making a normal rage she may apply a +4 morale bonus to her Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. This bonus increases to +6 when she gains greater rage and +8 when she gains mighty rage. She may apply the full bonus to one ability score or may split the bonus between several scores in increments of +2. When using a controlled rage, an urban barbarian gains no bonus on Will saves, takes no penalties to AC, and can still use Intelligence-, Dexterity-, and Charisma-based skills. This ability otherwise follows the normal rules for rage.
and Savage Technologist,
Rage (Ex) wrote:
A savage technologist can enter rage as a barbarian, except she gains a morale bonus to Strength and Dexterity instead of Strength and Constitution, and she does not take a penalty to Armor Class. She retains the bonus on Will saving throws. When a barbarian ability would increase the savage technologist’s Strength while raging, it increases her Dexterity instead. This ability alters rage.

While those abilities don't have "this ability modifies Greater Rage and Mighty Rage" at the end in the "This ability alters..." text it specifically calls out that they alter those abilities in the ability itself.


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Rysky wrote:
Then it really it should have said "this ability alters Rage, Mighty Rage, and Greater Rage" since those are three separate abilities that build off each other.

Dead Calm doesn't need to mention altering Greater or Mighty Rage because it doesn't alter those abilities.

I realize they are all separate abilities that can be replace/modified separately, but in the case of Dreadnought it's not needed.

Rysky wrote:
While those abilities don't have "this ability modifies Greater Rage and Mighty Rage" at the end in the "This ability alters..." text it specifically calls out that they alter those abilities in the ability itself.

Once again both Urban Barbarian and Savage Technologist both alter Rage in a way that wouldn't later function correctly with Greater/Mighty Rage.

Greater and Mighty Rage don't function alone. They only modify Rage by adding onto the base ability of Rage.

You literally can't read that Greater or Mighty Rage would bypass what Dead Calm mentions in its text. They don't add a flat bonus to Rage they simply increase the existing bonus from +4 STR/+4CON/+2 Will to +6/+6/+3 with Greater and +8/+8/+4 with Mighty.

So if Greater Rage alters Rage to give a +6 STR/+6 CON/+3 Will and Dead Calm only allows "half the usual bonuses from her rage" then it automatically works.

Dead Calm, Greater Rage, and Mighty Rage all alter Rage. So they all take effect regardless of if the archetype mentions it or not.

Silver Crusade

"Dead Calm doesn't need to mention altering Greater or Mighty Rage because it doesn't alter those abilities."

*blink*

*blink*

You're claiming it does though.

"Once again both Urban Barbarian and Savage Technologist both alter Rage in a way that wouldn't later function correctly with Greater/Mighty Rage."

Exactly, all of these archetypes modify rage in a way that would call for modifying Greater and Mighty as well. All of them have language calling out that they modify Greater and Mighty, except for Dreadnought.

"You literally can't read that Greater or Mighty Rage would bypass what Dead Calm mentions in its text."

Yes you can, actually.

"They don't add a flat bonus to Rage they simply increase the existing bonus from +4 STR/+4CON/+2 Will to +6/+6/+3 with Greater and +8/+8/+4 with Mighty."

And this is exactly why.

You keep saying those other archetypes alters Rage in ways that those archetypes have to call out changes, but that applies to Dead Calm as well.

"So if Greater Rage alters Rage to give a +6 STR/+6 CON/+3 Will and Dead Calm only allows "half the usual bonuses from her rage" then it automatically works."

Except it doesn't, and a player/GM is perfectly valid in believing that it doesn't since it doesn't call out that the change does apply to G/M Rage as well, unlike the four other archetypes I brought up.

Every archetype that modifies Rage in a way that will affect G/M Rage also calls out how they modify G/M. Every one, except Dreadnought.


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Rysky wrote:
Except it doesn't, and a player/GM is perfectly valid in believing that it doesn't since it doesn't call out that the change does apply to G/M Rage as well, unlike the four other archetypes I brought up.

Dead Calm, Greater Rage, and Mighty Rage all modify Rage. Without Rage none of them work alone.

A 1st Barbarian entering Rage gains +4 STR/+4 CON and +2 Will.
A 11th Barbarian entering Rage gains +6 STR/+6 CON and +3 Will.
A 20th Barbarian entering Rage gains +8 STR/+8 CON and +4 Will.

They never actively use an ability called Greater Rage or Mighty Rage. Greater/Mighty Rage passively change the amount of the bonus a Rage provides. The same way that Indomitable Will or Tireless Rage modify Rage.

They all refer back to the ability Rage.

So when Dead Calm says...

Dead Calm wrote:
A dreadnought can enter a dispassionate killing spree as a free action, granting her additional combat prowess. The dreadnought gains only half the usual bonuses from her rage but takes no penalty to her AC, can use all her normal skills and effects that require concentration, and is not fatigued when her rage ends. The dreadnought cannot enter a rage for 1 minute after she ends her rage, and she cannot charge or run while under the effects of her rage.

It is effecting the ability Rage.

The bonus Rage provides is dependent on what abilties you have gained as a Barbarian.

If Rage provides a +4 STR/+4 CON and +2 Will then Dead Calm makes it +2 STR/+2 CON and +1 Will. Since it alters Rage.

Later the 11th Barbarian (Dreadnought) gets the ability Greater Rage. Which quite literally changes the bonus provided from Rage.

Anytime the 11th Barbarian (Dreadnought) enters Rage the bonus provided by Rage would be +6 STR/+6 CON and +3 Will; which is directly modified by Dead Calm. Making it +3 STR/+3 CON and +2 Will.

Since now we have both Greater Rage and Dead Calm effecting Rage.

All that matters is that Dead Calm alters the bonus of Rage.
So even when Greater/Mighty Rage increase the bonus provided by Rage it still is being effected by Dead Calm.


Even something like Raging Vitality would be effected by Dead Calm.

Raging Vitality wrote:
Whenever you are raging, the morale bonus to your Constitution increases by +2. Your rage does not end if you become unconscious. While unconscious you must still expend rounds of rage per day each round.

So a 1st Barbarian using Rage normally gets +4 STR/+4 CON and +2 Will.

Add in Raging Vitality and it makes Rage provide +4 STR/+6 CON and +2 Will.

Add in Dead Calm and it becomes +2 STR/+3 CON and +1 Will.

No matter what you do. If an ability adds a bonus to Rage it is still modified by Dead Calm.

Silver Crusade

But it doesn't say it alters those abilities, unlike Urban Barbarian and Savage Technologist which alter the bonuses from all three Rage abilities like Dead Calm but unlike Dead Calm calls out that they change them for the later two.

Greater Rage says the bonuses increase to 6.

Mighty Rage says the bonuses increase to 8.

They are affecting the bonuses to Rage and Dead Calm says nothing about altering them, unlike Urban Barbarian and Savage Technologist.

Silver Crusade

Brain_in_a_Jar wrote:

Even something like Raging Vitality would be effected by Dead Calm.

Raging Vitality wrote:
Whenever you are raging, the morale bonus to your Constitution increases by +2. Your rage does not end if you become unconscious. While unconscious you must still expend rounds of rage per day each round.

So a 1st Barbarian using Rage normally gets +4 STR/+4 CON and +2 Will.

Add in Raging Vitality and it makes Rage provide +4 STR/+6 CON and +2 Will.

Add in Dead Calm and it becomes +2 STR/+3 CON and +1 Will.

No matter what you do. If an ability adds a bonus to Rage it is still modified by Dead Calm.

I'm gonna disagree on this too, since this is a specific effect added on through a feat rather than the class ability.

"Whenever you are raging, the morale bonus to your Constitution increases by +2" trumps "The dreadnought gains only half the usual bonuses from her rage " since it is gained after the fact and separate from Dead Calm.


Rysky wrote:
But it doesn't say it alters those abilities, unlike Urban Barbarian and Savage Technologist which alter the bonuses from all three Rage abilities like Dead Calm but unlike Dead Calm calls out that they change them for the later two.

It's not altering those abilities. Dead Calm only alters Rage.

Rysky wrote:

Greater Rage says the bonuses increase to 6.

Mighty Rage says the bonuses increase to 8.

Both make Rage provide a higher bonus. They both modify the ability called Rage.

What does Dead Calm alter? RAGE.

Rysky wrote:
They are affecting the bonuses to Rage...

Yes they are affecting Rage.

Rysky wrote:
and Dead Calm says nothing about altering them...

"The dreadnought gains only half the usual bonuses from her rage..."

So Dead Calm, Greater Rage, and Mighty Rage ALL effect Rage.

So why would Dead Calm suddenly stop effecting Rage once you get Greater or Mighty Rage?

Rysky wrote:
I'm gonna disagree on this too, since this is a specific effect added on through a feat rather than the class ability.

I don't see why it would matter if its a Feat or Class Ability.

Rysky wrote:
"Whenever you are raging, the morale bonus to your Constitution increases by +2" trumps "The dreadnought gains only half the usual bonuses from her rage " since it is gained after the fact and separate from Dead Calm.

At least with this one I can see it going both ways. Since I don't think the rules will mention order of operations on this one since it does add +2 CON.

So it could be half of Rage +2 CON or Rage +2 CON then half.

But unlike Raging Vitality both Greater Rage and Mighty Rage don't add anything they only increase the base effect of Rage.

So those still get halved by Dead Calm. I'm now unsure of Raging Vitality.

Silver Crusade

"It's not altering those abilities. Dead Calm only alters Rage."

You keep saying this but stating otherwise, it's rather confusing.

Yes, Dread Calm alters Rage, it knocks the bonuses down from +4 to +2.

Greater Rage alters Rage, it boosts the bonuses up to +6.

Mighty Rage alters Rage, it boosts the bonuses up to +8.

Dread Calm makes no mention of cutting those new modifiers in half.

Greater Rage does not say you gain an additional +2 bonus to Strength and Constitution, it says the bonuses you currently get increase to +6.

Dread Calm, a 1st level ability, as you state halves the bonuses for Rage, from +4 to +2. Greater Rage, an 11th level ability says your bonuses from Rage increase to +6. Nothing in Dead Calm states otherwise.

So a GM reading Dreadnought who thinks the halving should apply to all bonuses is valid, but one who thinks it only applies to the base Rage is perfectly valid as well due to the vagueness from Dead Calm not mentioning how it interacts with the later abilities.


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Rysky wrote:

"It's not altering those abilities. Dead Calm only alters Rage."

You keep saying this but stating otherwise, it's rather confusing.

Yes, Dread Calm alters Rage, it knocks the bonuses down from +4 to +2.

Greater Rage alters Rage, it boosts the bonuses up to +6.

Mighty Rage alters Rage, it boosts the bonuses up to +8.

Dread Calm makes no mention of cutting those new modifiers in half.

Greater Rage does not say you gain an additional +2 bonus to Strength and Constitution, it says the bonuses you currently get increase to +6.

Dread Calm, a 1st level ability, as you state halves the bonuses for Rage, from +4 to +2. Greater Rage, an 11th level ability says your bonuses from Rage increase to +6. Nothing in Dead Calm states otherwise.

So a GM reading Dreadnought who thinks the halving should apply to all bonuses is valid, but one who thinks it only applies to the base Rage is perfectly valid as well due to the vagueness from Dead Calm not mentioning how it interacts with the later abilities.

The thing you're missing is he's saying that dread calm DOESN'T change the rage values. He's saying rage is always +4 and Dread is half of what rage is. So dread calm isn't set to +2 but set at RAGE/2

So when anything alters the values of rage, dread calm doesn't care or need to be updated cause it's just half of whatever a rage would be.


Think of rage and both class features like being a spell modified by two different metamagic feats.

Silver Crusade

Ventnor wrote:
Think of rage and both class features like being a spell modified by two different metamagic feats.

Like Heighten.

Greater/Mighty don't double/triple the bonuses from Rage, they give a specific number that they increase to.

Designer

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Morkbla, Armchair, Ventnor, and Brain have it; Dreadnought halves the bonuses, so when other things change the bonuses, you would halve them too (at least standard order of operations is to apply multiplier effects like a x2 crit or a half-damage Reflex save after adding everything up). Should I or another designer have tagged it as altering the later upgrades during development? Possibly, especially if I thought that a replacement or second modification to them was going to cause issues (and thinking on it, I suppose a hypothetical archetype that replaced those features with something equally powerful but completely non-bonus would fit the bill, so maybe I should have).


Rysky wrote:
Greater Rage does not say you gain an additional +2 bonus to Strength and Constitution, it says the bonuses you currently get increase to +6.

It does not say "currently get" you added that.

Rysky wrote:
Dread Calm, a 1st level ability, as you state halves the bonuses for Rage, from +4 to +2. Greater Rage, an 11th level ability says your bonuses from Rage increase to +6. Nothing in Dead Calm states otherwise.

First Off...

The bonuses of Rage are dependent on what abilities you have. At 1t Level it's only +4 STR/CON and +2 Will; at 11th Rage gives +6 STR/CON and +3 Will; and at 20th Rage gives +8 STR/CON and +4 Will.

Dead Calm always halves the usually bonuses of Rage.

Rysky wrote:
...but one who thinks it only applies to the base Rage is perfectly valid as well due to the vagueness from Dead Calm not mentioning how it interacts with the later abilities.

No they aren't valid. That's called selective reading.

Greater Rage and Mighty Rage both modify the base ability Rage.

Dead Calm halves the bonuses of Rage.

Deciding to arbitrarily have Dead Calm stop halving the bonuses when you get Greater Rage doesn't make any sense.

Silver Crusade

Chess Pwn wrote:
Rysky wrote:

"It's not altering those abilities. Dead Calm only alters Rage."

You keep saying this but stating otherwise, it's rather confusing.

Yes, Dread Calm alters Rage, it knocks the bonuses down from +4 to +2.

Greater Rage alters Rage, it boosts the bonuses up to +6.

Mighty Rage alters Rage, it boosts the bonuses up to +8.

Dread Calm makes no mention of cutting those new modifiers in half.

Greater Rage does not say you gain an additional +2 bonus to Strength and Constitution, it says the bonuses you currently get increase to +6.

Dread Calm, a 1st level ability, as you state halves the bonuses for Rage, from +4 to +2. Greater Rage, an 11th level ability says your bonuses from Rage increase to +6. Nothing in Dead Calm states otherwise.

So a GM reading Dreadnought who thinks the halving should apply to all bonuses is valid, but one who thinks it only applies to the base Rage is perfectly valid as well due to the vagueness from Dead Calm not mentioning how it interacts with the later abilities.

The thing you're missing is he's saying that dread calm DOESN'T change the rage values. He's saying rage is always +4 and Dread is half of what rage is. So dread calm isn't set to +2 but set at RAGE/2

So when anything alters the values of rage, dread calm doesn't care or need to be updated cause it's just half of whatever a rage would be.

Except they do, Dread Calm cuts the bonuses from Rage in half, from 4 to 2, it makes no mention of cutting the bonuses from Greater/Mighty as well when it really needed to since every other Archetype mentions altering the bonuses.


Rysky wrote:
Except they do, Dread Calm cuts the bonuses from Rage in half, from 4 to 2, it makes no mention of cutting the bonuses from Greater/Mighty as well when it really needed to since every other Archetype mentions altering the bonuses.

No.

Dead Calm halves the usual bonuses of Rage. Not just the +4 STR/CON and +2 Will to half that.

It always halves the bonuses.

All Greater and Mighty Rage do is set the bonus for Rage which is halved by Dead Calm.

Silver Crusade

Mark Seifter wrote:
Morkbla, Armchair, Ventnor, and Brain have it; Dreadnought halves the bonuses, so when other things change the bonuses, you would halve them too (at least standard order of operations is to apply multiplier effects like a x2 crit or a half-damage Reflex save after adding everything up). Should I or another designer have tagged it as altering the later upgrades during development? Possibly, especially if I thought that a replacement or second modification to them was going to cause issues (and thinking on it, I suppose a hypothetical archetype that replaced those features with something equally powerful but completely non-bonus would fit the bill, so maybe I should have).

Thankies.

And yes that would be something to watch out for in a later Archetype.


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Big thanks for the feedback guys, specialy from Rysky, Brain and Mark. Rysky totally got my point, and thanks for the clarification mark


Hi quick question. Would it make sense or even be allowed to use an Asterion's favored class option for a dreadnought? I'm not sure how that would work.

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