In Golarion My Way, I have a Sarenite order of monks trying to set up orphanages in Isger to do precisely this... the barrier I have them encountering is a legal one- Isgeri are not too happy about people feeding and sheltering goblins of any kind...
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I don't see much of any nation or church wanting to make a concerted effort to civilize goblins, as it seems like a lot of effort that would be better spent on lifting up disadvantaged people of other races, like humans, halflings, etc.
Hobgoblins, on the other hand, would seem like logical recruits for certain groups of law-and-order types in Cheliax or Molthune. Funding the training of some elf-killing hobgoblin squads to harass elven communities could also be a thing that some Drumish merchants would be willing to very covertly back... Katapeshi slave-traders might be equally willing to (much less covertly) use them to ward off gnoll raids, under the logic of 'let the animals kill each other, instead of risking our own people's lives.'
OTOH, none of those groups would seem particularly likely to try and 'redeem' them, so much as exploit their natural tendencies to further their own goals.
In my home game I've built Belkzen - which I've combined with the Kingdom of Many-Arrows from Forgotten realms - into one of the strongest nations in the world in a "mongols go from steppe nomads to largest empire on earth in a stupidly short time frame" kinda way. Was basically my Wrath of the Righteous PC's(a half-orc gorumite fighter) retirement plan.
There isn't a concentrated effort by any outside nation to civilize them though the followings of several good and lawful deities are taking the opportunity to get some missionary work going. The primary work is being done by a handful of dragons - both good and evil - taking the opportunity to help shape a new civilization to their will.
But yeah, I'm not aware of any real attempts to do this in the lore.
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If so, what sources discuss this?
If not, is there a reason why this has never occurred to anyone?
Aside from people wanting to kill them on sight, the difficulties of deprogramming goblins of their barbaric and insane culture or raising them by hand depending upon their age, and the logistical difficulties of their metabolisms, what barriers would there be in terms of their nature rather than their categorically evil nurture?
What about the larger variants of goblinoid?
Sounds like forced cultural assimilation too me. Devouring babies and slavery are important elements of goblin cultural identity after all.
There's an chapter about Kaoling's capital, Dhucharg, in Distant Shores. It's pretty civilized. In fact, its civilized enough to manage its huge military and even huger slave caste pretty well. Apparently the place as a whole is pretty peaceful and few people ever break the law because of just how strict they are. Slaves are treated rather badly though, like really badly, but the slaves at least get to abuse other slaves that are of a longer pecking order than them, so there's that I guess.
I suppose that's better than normal goblins who just try to kill you the moment you step into the woods. These guys instead efficiently conquer and enslave you. So in that way their a mix of Nazis, Confederates, and the Japanese military nationalists from WW2, which I guess makes them pretty civilized.
I've always just assumed that the reason goblins are pretty much all evil and haven't been exterminated long time ago is because the Goblin Hero Gods made them to be evil monsters (I think for goblins sanity/compassion is as rare and horrific as sociopath is for humans) and they keep spawning more of them onto Golarion whenever someone tries to wiping them all out.
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I know they are counted as citizens in Irrisen, so there might be some more civilized goblins up there just through acceptance.Oh? What's the source on that? Is there any level of detail given?
They may not have an Int penalty mechanically, but going off of how they're usually portrayed, I'm going to have to disagree with you about them being pretty dumb.Yea, it's like, they aren't dumb, they can join many cultures.
How well the culture accepts them is probably a large factor.
In Irrisen monsters are considered citizens while humans are... Well, let's say that by Irriseni law, if troll gets hungry and eats human, its not troll's fault.
In Irrisen monsters are considered citizens while humans are... Well, let's say that by Irriseni law, if troll gets hungry and eats human, its not troll's fault.That's not exactly "civilized".
I'd expect the troll to be charged with unauthorized destruction of property, if anything.
Most humans in Irrisen are chattel, with the notable exception of the Jadwiga ruling caste.
Irrisen is definitely civilization, just a casually horrifying one. Forx example, burying dead serfs is prohibited - rather, their corpses are supposed to be collected and sent to Whitethrone for processing into meat, fat, bone meal, etc. The eternal winter means everything keeps!
Civilizing goblins - probably perfectly doable if you're willing to take a bunch of babies and start from scratch. Reforming actual goblin society means you're running smack dab into the influence of Lamashtu and the Goblin Hero Gods, and that is one hell of a push back.
Yeah, a lot of monsters in Irrisen serve the Jadwiga. And Irrisen has ongoing conflicts with monsters that refuse to bow down to anyone (and so they have patrols of human soldiers led by trolls or winter wolves that have to hunt renegade evil fey and whatnot).
The Ulfen peasants are a disposable resource, but they can't just be killed without getting permission first. After all, those serfs are still someone's property.
If the idea of "civilizing monsters" means "put them in charge and let them do what they want, subject to being punished when they annoy something more powerful", it's not really "civilizing".
By that standard Belkzen's orcs are "civilized" and so is the average goblin tribe.I'd have to look more closely at the Irrisen example. I don't have the Irrisen campaign books, but that's not the idea I got from the stuff in RoW. Some monsters yes, but not given that kind of free rein, to kill and eat people as they please.
Civilizing goblins, even by raising babies from scratch (with all the horrific implications that being a good thing has), is pretty GM dependent. How much that's goblin nature and how it's purely cultural is loosely defined at best. Possibly even contradictory.
Civilized doesn't mean 'nice'. Civilized means lived in an organized city-based society.
Rome was civilized, and it was out conquering people left and right.
Sparta was completely horrible, keeping most of the population in slavery where it was not only free to kill them but something done as a right of passage, but it was civilized.
Irrisen's civilized, but the trolls really aren't a big factor in that, the Witches rule and keep the trolls in line. Some of the monsters who live there are more properly civilized, others just are given a spot.
Belkzen is semi-civilized. There is some cities and such, but most of the country is semi-nomatic tribes that sometimes take over a city. Give it time and I expect it'd become more-so with a more stable system.
Adding to this from Irrisen - Land of Eternal Winter book:
The fey of the Feyfrost region are known child thieves and have a whole market island that deals in this trade. Baroness Pavlina is considered a black sheep and "exiled" to the peasant town of Badelund because she actually worries about the well being of servants and slaves. She has to personally pay for mercenaries to try to track down stolen children, as opposed to ordering soldiers to do it.Sections like that heavily imply that the races involved with Baba Yaga's conquering armies are given a lot of leeway unless they upset a major Jadwiga.
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Civilizing goblins - probably perfectly doable if you're willing to take a bunch of babies and start from scratch.
*Patronizing sniff*
A typically ignorant dismissal of our many, many contributions to the civilized world. Our poetry and music alone put us at the forefront of civilization!
I see no one's even going to make the attempt to advocate for the poor, misunderstood bugbears. Just shameful.
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I see no one's even going to make the attempt to advocate for the poor, misunderstood bugbears. Just shameful.
Fun fact: Zirnakaynin's Mall of Cocyrdavarin is so big, it has two Build-a-Bugbear™ Workshops. (The one in the southeast corner on level 3, right next to the Fleshcrafters, is friendlier to surface folk.)
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Friendlier meaning they only hit them as much as needed to subdue them before enslaving them?
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If the idea of "civilizing monsters" means "put them in charge and let them do what they want, subject to being punished when they annoy something more powerful", it's not really "civilizing".
By that standard Belkzen's orcs are "civilized" and so is the average goblin tribe.I'd have to look more closely at the Irrisen example. I don't have the Irrisen campaign books, but that's not the idea I got from the stuff in RoW. Some monsters yes, but not given that kind of free rein, to kill and eat people as they please.
Civilizing goblins, even by raising babies from scratch (with all the horrific implications that being a good thing has), is pretty GM dependent. How much that's goblin nature and how it's purely cultural is loosely defined at best. Possibly even contradictory.
Civilized doesn't mean 'nice'. Civilized means lived in an organized city-based society.
Rome was civilized, and it was out conquering people left and right.
Sparta was completely horrible, keeping most of the population in slavery where it was not only free to kill them but something done as a right of passage, but it was civilized.
Irrisen's civilized, but the trolls really aren't a big factor in that, the Witches rule and keep the trolls in line. Some of the monsters who live there are more properly civilized, others just are given a spot.
Belkzen is semi-civilized. There is some cities and such, but most of the country is semi-nomatic tribes that sometimes take over a city. Give it time and I expect it'd become more-so with a more stable system.
Adding to this from Irrisen - Land of Eternal Winter book:
The fey of the Feyfrost region are known child thieves and have a whole market island that deals in this trade. Baroness Pavlina is considered a black sheep and "exiled" to the peasant town of Badelund because she actually worries about the well being of servants and slaves. She has to personally pay for mercenaries to try to track down stolen...
As far as I'm aware, Feyfrost was literally given to the evil Fey who helped Baba Yaga, so it's not overly surprising that it's not human-centric. That may not be true for the rest of Irrisen :)
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If so, what sources discuss this?
If not, is there a reason why this has never occurred to anyone?
Aside from people wanting to kill them on sight, the difficulties of deprogramming goblins of their barbaric and insane culture or raising them by hand depending upon their age, and the logistical difficulties of their metabolisms, what barriers would there be in terms of their nature rather than their categorically evil nurture?
What about the larger variants of goblinoid?
In our Rise of the Runelords game, we befriended the local goblin tribe and taught them to make magically infused cheeses for us. We call them the Curdherders and we love them. Apart from trying to milk every creature they see they're rather well behaved.
As I recall, Kaer Maga, so called the "City of Strangers," is open to all races or species willing to behave themselves and engage in trade. I don't have the campaign book in front of me, but I think I remember goblins acting as sort of gangs of perpetual street urchins.
As I recall, Kaer Maga, so called the "City of Strangers," is open to all races or species willing to behave themselves and engage in trade. I don't have the campaign book in front of me, but I think I remember goblins acting as sort of gangs of perpetual street urchins.
Not to mention the famous Troll Augurs, who work as the city's premier fortune tellers/information network for hire.
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Civilizing humanoids.
That would make for a great Asmodean villain story
Indeed. Orcs and goblins and gnolls might be a hard row to hoe, but hobgoblins and bugbears and possibly ogres would probably work well under Asmodean doctrine, with appropriate roles and motivations tailored to their own cultures (let the ogres think that they are feared and valued, while the bugbears actually *are*, etc.).
It would be intriguing to see something done with the blank slate that is lizardfolk. Ignored and neglected, they could be seen as ripe for an evil church / nation to cultivate and promise all sorts of 'come with us if you want to live' stuff (and then ruthlessly exploit and use as disposable arrow fodder and literally cold-blooded unblinking inhuman enforcers to terrorize their own human population). It wouldn't even have to be Asmodeans, which, in Cheliax, at least, are racist as heck. The church of Razmir could use some inhuman 'muscle,' and lives in a more lizardfolk-compatible marshy part of the world.
Civilizing humanoids.
That would make for a great Asmodean villain story
Indeed. Orcs and goblins and gnolls might be a hard row to hoe, but hobgoblins and bugbears and possibly ogres would probably work well under Asmodean doctrine, with appropriate roles and motivations tailored to their own cultures (let the ogres think that they are feared and valued, while the bugbears actually *are*, etc.).
It would be intriguing to see something done with the blank slate that is lizardfolk. Ignored and neglected, they could be seen as ripe for an evil church / nation to cultivate and promise all sorts of 'come with us if you want to live' stuff (and then ruthlessly exploit and use as disposable arrow fodder and literally cold-blooded unblinking inhuman enforcers to terrorize their own human population). It wouldn't even have to be Asmodeans, which, in Cheliax, at least, are racist as heck. The church of Razmir could use some inhuman 'muscle,' and lives in a more lizardfolk-compatible marshy part of the world.
Some Asmodean societies might be able to pull that off, but others (like Cheliax) seem like they'd just go the road of trying to enslave most of them.
I think Asmodean societies in general would have the problem of becoming wrapped up in ideas of their own superiority, because that's the go-to explanation for any society that builds itself on slavery: we're the slavemasters instead of the slaves because we're inherently the best.