Wizard: How to turn a paladin into my evil puppet?


Advice


Hi!

In agreement with another party member (the paladin) we want to accomplish the following thing:

I am a wizard 15/archmage 6 and I want to turn our paladin 15 of iomedae evil. In the end I want to hold his heart in my hands and want him to be my puppet.

Besides trying to implenent bad ideas I am curious whether there are drugs or spells I can use?

Or can I kill him and raise him back from the death giving him another alignment?

Any ideas to this are very welcome.


What's in it for the paladin? Generally, willing consent is the best tool for manipulation.


Turning him into Undead will change his alignment to evil. Of course, he wont be a paladin. And with most common types of undead he wont be sentient.

Can I ask what out of character reason is there that you want to turn the PC evil? What in character reason is there? I mean is your wizard evil? Otherwise plotting to turn a paladin evil would be pretty evil on it's own turning you evil in the process.

If you wizard is already evil, why did the paladin adventure with you? It's against his code unless exceptional circumstances demand it. Usually starting off in the game the stakes aren't high enough to warrant cooperation.


First, kudos for working with the other player on this one!

Second -- what sort of evil do you want? Much advice will depend on whether you want him to willingly turn evil all the way, or if you just want him to unknowingly serve your evil ends.

Precautions: mask your alignment so he won't detect evil in your direction.

Philosophical argument might work ("your Iomedae is right from a certain point of view, but can't you see that greater good can be accomplished by the greater power of the Dark Side?" -- obviously it would have to be dressed up a bit, but that's why your INT is higher than his WIS.)

Revenge for a lost loved one might work -- does he have a relative or a cause for which he'd be willing to give up much? Dupe your enemies into going after something important to the paladin, then encourage him to go overboard in pursuit of vengeance.

Deception is classic -- give someone important to him an artifact that makes him scan as evil, plant some rumors, then get the paladin into going after him. When the paladin falls for killing an innocent, explain to him that obviously the gods aren't "really" good if they don't support his attack on an obvious evil, and then mention that you know some beings who would help him punish the guilty and thereby bring about justice (just ignore the bat wings and demonic tentacles...)

Putting a geas on him might work, or modify memory to back up some crucial parts of the plan (like, say, the exact wording of the geas).

Sovereign Court

If you are also working with the gm, Graveknight template could be cool.

Maybe scroll of wish to let him keep class abilities regardless of alignment.


Well, the FASTEST way is probably a Helm of Opposite Alignment, assuming you can get through his saves...


Claxon asked wrote:
Can I ask what out of character reason is there that you want to turn the PC evil?

We heading to the end of a long compaign where we had to fight evil and evil tried to influence us all along the way. My wizard has tasted the dark side and just likes it too much. He already has a pact with nocticular. She gave him a gift and they are connected telepathically.

There is a big final fight coming at the end where we have to fight a demonlord (probably) and after (hopefully) defeating it the pala and I want to reveal that we are evil to the rest of the party, kill them and take the place of the demonlord. (We will be level 20/10 then). But until this is going to happen I have to turn the paladin on my side and then we have to disguise that he has turned evil. This is going to be a lot fun for us probably.

@firebug: The graveknight template looks aweseome!

Dark Archive

Step 1: Make the Paladin fall.
Step 2: Make sure the Paladin can't atone.
Step 3: Convince the Paladin that his god has forsaken him and offer an abyssal/infernal alternative.

As for the spells you can use to accomplish this? Any at your disposal. You can use illusions to hide your alignment, and enchantments to convince him to do the right thing.

You might want to watch the Journey Quest series. It has a great example of someone losing his faith, though I think it's best to skip the whole undead angle. It would be more satisfying to roleplay the entire thing than to use an insta-evil spell. (At least for me.)
You might want to get your friend's opinion on this too.

Once the Paladin has fallen, you could make him magical items that mimic Anti-Paladin class features, and tell your friend that they actually mimic Paladin abilities. (Like a third eye that mimics Detect Good, except the Paladin thinks it detects evil.)

Edit: Argh ninjas! So yeah, roleplay won't fit that much if the rest of the party shouldn't know about it. And you'll still need a convincing way to mimic paladin abilities. Hellknight might be a good fit for the Paladin.


I think generally you're going to be better off not doing anything that targets the Paladin's saves, since the Paladin ought to have really good saves (and even if you can make the DC really high, there's still a chance they'll succeed) and once the Paladin successfully saves they're going to know something is up.

I agree that "willing consent" is the best (and most fun to RP) way to do this.


vadda wrote:
Claxon asked wrote:
Can I ask what out of character reason is there that you want to turn the PC evil?

We heading to the end of a long compaign where we had to fight evil and evil tried to influence us all along the way. My wizard has tasted the dark side and just likes it too much. He already has a pact with nocticular. She gave him a gift and they are connected telepathically.

There is a big final fight coming at the end where we have to fight a demonlord (probably) and after (hopefully) defeating it the pala and I want to reveal that we are evil to the rest of the party, kill them and take the place of the demonlord. (We will be level 20/10 then). But until this is going to happen I have to turn the paladin on my side and then we have to disguise that he has turned evil. This is going to be a lot fun for us probably.

Have you instead considered what might be more fun for the entire party?

Because right now, if I was your party member and this happened I would walk away from the table.

What might be more fun for the entire party is you all defeat the demonlord, you (alone) reveal that you're evil, and you fight the party and the character is killed. The rest of the party wins.

You can be the surprise BBEG who is gifted with powers directly from Nocticula (to be able to challenge the entire party).


Read Arthas. It's not a long read, but essentially it puts the paladin into a no-win situation where his "best" shot at saving his people involves willingly wielding a cursed artifact.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The Beyond Morality mythic ability might help your Paladin buddy keep some of his abilities GM permitting ;-)


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Or get the Paladin to buy into the "powder-keg of Justice"-theory.


If you're looking for purely mechanical solutions:

Option 1) Give the paladin a Helm of Opposite Alignment and hope he fails the will save (or willingly accepts the change).

Option 2) Cast the spell atonement on the paladin, using the "temptation" option to offer him a chance to match your alignment. Also allows a will save.

Option 3) Find an 8th level cleric with the Corruption subdomain, and get said cleric to use the Spark Malfeasance ability on the paladin over and over until he gives in.

But honestly, this sounds like something that would be better handled through story than mechanics. Either engineer a situation in which the paladin has no options but evil ones, or tempt him with things forbidden by his code.


Remember 3.5 Mind Rape? Well I present to you Mind Rape with FLAVOR

If you can present him with the very very worst "humanity" can offer that would presumably work. Bonus points if it is a member of his own faith

For the greater good arguments. If you can show him the futility of continuing to struggle as he is now, then offer the power to protect others

Greater Planar Binding can be a very very effective tool for bringing about either scenario

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