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The difficulty is, by developing the idea further and using it for your story you become complicit in the original story. It also tacitly condones such behaviour and reminds the PCs that they did something heinous.
Lets be clear, there is no 'good punishment' that you can dish out to your players that will make things balanced and yet still leave your players satisfied. Unless they enjoy doing terrible acts and then being punished for it (lets not even go there.)
I wouldn't flip the monopoly board, I just wouldn't want to develop a fundamentally flawed storyline and would prefer a clean slate. Honestly the situation of adults fighting against their will is pretty horrific and brutal, using children was really just clumsy.
However, if you are determined to plow ahead. Is there any way this Dark Stranger can have been toying with the party and the 'children' were polymorphed adults wearing faces the party knew (if they indeed are people the party knew.) Perhaps the party members can glimse a figure in the crowd that looks like someone the party killed - the player doesn't know if they are having flashbacks or being fooled. The stranger actually has the people the PCs fought captured and is using their hair/nails/blood etc to grow dopplegangers etc they can use?
people keep posting about the PCs innocence or the lack in logic of having an npc retaliate for the kids death... and i habe no clue why.
he said it was a horror campaign.
have none of you seem any movies where the protagonist is hounded by some crazy psycho for some percieved sleight that wasn't actually their fault? i have seen tions of those movies. the lack of logic and reason on the part of the party seeking revenge is sort of the point.
when someone affects irrationally towards you - it is unnerving.
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However they wanted to step up the horror aspect and although this isn't something I would ever have done in my game it's now the hand I've been given to play and I don't want to retcon it in a way that just feels like me hitting a rewind button or flipping a monopoly gameboard as I feel it would be a failure as a writer
But you didn't write it. Someone else did, without talking to you first.
And you also said this:
one of my players got angry to the point of swearing at others because he got pidgeon holed into the situation and could do nothing about it.
Something to keep in mind is that it's not always obvious to a player what is a legitimate plot hook and what is a step off a cliff until they are falling off the cliff and it's too late to go back. As the original GM, you had some additional OOC knowledge about the story. The players didn't.
It's very easy for players to make decisions that are terrible after the fact because they very reasonably expect that a game, even a horror themed one, has traditional plot hooks where they are generally aware of the stakes involved. (Edited to add) Especially in a world where magic obfuscates reality, and most problems are reversible unless the GM goes out of their way to escalate things like this, completely disproportionately. (Oh, this damage isn't non-lethal! Oh, god, it's really the kids and not some trick! Oh, they're dead and we can't question them! Oh, they turned to liquid because GM fiat!)
I don't think it's ever a good idea to try and address OOC problems with in game solutions. Just retcon it. Talk to the players. They may be more than happy to forget the whole thing ever happened. I sure would be.
Part of why you are so frustrated is that people aren't giving you the answer you want. There's a reason for that.
I'm not going to retcon this in way that's just wiping the board because to do that would be like telling my guest GM that his plot was s*&% and none of it happened, yes what he did was a bit of a slap in the face to me but I'm not going to do the same of it back. I'm retconing this in a way that sends a message to my players that their mistakes still carry weight and the world around them will react to what they do. and after that I'm going ahead with the campaign and that will be it
However they wanted to step up the horror aspect and although this isn't something I would ever have done in my game it's now the hand I've been given to play and I don't want to retcon it in a way that just feels like me hitting a rewind button or flipping a monopoly gameboard as I feel it would be a failure as a writerBut you didn't write it. Someone else did, without talking to you first.
And you also said this:
one of my players got angry to the point of swearing at others because he got pidgeon holed into the situation and could do nothing about it.Something to keep in mind is that it's not always obvious to a player what is a legitimate plot hook and what is a step off a cliff until they are falling off the cliff and it's too late to go back. As the original GM, you had some additional OOC knowledge about the story. The players didn't.
It's very easy for players to make decisions that are terrible after the fact because they very reasonably expect that a game, even a horror themed one, has traditional plot hooks where they are generally aware of the stakes involved. (Edited to add) Especially in a world where magic obfuscates reality, and most problems are reversible unless the GM goes out of their way to escalate things like this, completely disproportionately. (Oh, this damage isn't non-lethal! Oh, god, it's really the kids and not some trick! Oh, they're dead and we can't question them! Oh, they turned to liquid because GM fiat!)
I don't think it's ever a good idea to try and address OOC problems with in game solutions. Just retcon it. Talk to the players. They may be more than happy to forget the whole thing ever happened. I sure would be.
Part of why you are so frustrated is that people aren't giving you the answer you want. There's a reason for that.
I don't know what OOC knowledge you think I had but I knew nothing, I was amongst the pissed off and confused players who had their agency taken away completely. and part of the reason I'm frustrated is because people are assuming information they don't know and giving me their advice on how to be a GM that i simply didn't ask for
I don't know what OOC knowledge you think I had but I knew nothing, I was amongst the pissed off and confused players who had their agency...
As the GM who created the initial setting, NPCs, etc, as well as gave notes to the guest GM, you probably had a pretty good idea when things were going down a strange path, and that the shocking moment was not a normal plot hook. That's what I mean.
I don't know what the other players might have been thinking, of course, but keep in mind that it's a game, and it's supposed to be fun for everyone. Scary, disturbing, irreversible changes like this generally don't come without warning labels attached to them. Your players may have been shocked, but may not have realized that this was "not part of the plan".
But, you're right, I don't know and can't know. I can only go based on what you've said so far. You description of the game session has not been flattering. If I were you or your players, I'd be equally upset.
Here's the thing, though: your plan to punish the players for something at least one of them felt pigeonholed into? I have serious, serious doubts that it will have the effect you think it will.
art of the reason I'm frustrated is because people are assuming information they don't know and giving me their advice on how to be a GM that i simply didn't ask for
When you come to these forums and ask for advice, you are getting the collective wisdom of a large number of gamers and GM's, many of whom have been playing this game and others like it since they first appeared in the 1970's. Sometimes that advice is an answer to a question that you didn't ask because they feel that the question you asked is built on some bad assumptions.
I've been playing this game since 1979. I've seen real friends get angry enough with one another to jeopardize real life relationships, multiple times. Plenty of people here can tell you horror stories of the same or worse. The common themes in these cases are mismatched expectations for the game and the style of the game, lack of communication between players and GMs, and a refusal to change some aspect of gameplay because of a stubborn ideal about the story or a character ("It's what my character would do" being the most common, followed closely by "this is more realistic"). This thread has echoes of all three of those.
As a veteran of D&D and its derivatives for over 38 years, my advice to you is to rethink this. Accept the fact that, yes, that player's story may have been flawed. It happens. That doesn't mean it was s**t. If you don't want to retcon it, that's fine. I understand. But at least talk to the players and get their input. Ask them what they want to do about it.
You opened this thread by admitting you are "a somewhat new DM". There is nothing at all wrong with being new, and we all started there. But, when a number of GMs and players with significant experience are suggesting that you stop and rethink this, please consider the possibility that they might just know what they are talking about.
many of whom have been playing this game and others like it since they first appeared in the 1970's.
LOL Some of us old bastards are still around. ;) I started off playing the blackmoor rules. I have fond memories of those little pamphlet-style books.
For us, the most heated arguments where over paladins and catch 22 scenarios where no matter WHAT the character did they had to fall. That and kenders... I really hate kenders...
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That and kenders... I really hate kenders...
I've played a Kender... Well 2 kenders in fact... The first one died about 1 hour after the game begun 'cause of a lever that I pulled and I shouldn't have... :p
The second one lasted 2 in game days before my fellow players hung me by the feet to a tree the morning before departure...Then Kender were banned... :D
But back on topic... You should not punish the players for what they've done, you should give them opportunities to "make it right"... Rez can be done even if by GM fiat with a not RAW spell with not RAW rules about things disapearing from the common setup (did the players get a Perception, Spellcraft or any Knowledge check to assess the situation and to find something has gone bad ? )... It costs a lot but you can make that a part of the plot, a new quest... Players accepts new quests much more than they accept punition for playing... ;)
Oh... And I can understand that a GM don't want their players to rez easily dead people or to speak with dead and find the BBEG immediatly... So I'm not against "special spell", but you have to make them available to your players too... :p
Make that a Willing target rune spell that goes on when the wearer die, make it available to the players and you can go... ;)
LOL Some of us old bastards are still around. ;) I started off playing the blackmoor rules. I have fond memories of those little pamphlet-style books.
For us, the most heated arguments where over paladins and catch 22 scenarios where no matter WHAT the character did they had to fall. That and kenders... I really hate kenders...
I remember seeing the old pamphlets back then, but we grew up on the AD&D hardcovers. So I don't get to claim full grognard status.
Good point about the catch 22 thing. I guess the 4th major source of conflict is the person who just wants to stick it to the GM or the other players because reasons. Thankfully, we never had one of those personalities but I certainly have read enough about them.
And don't get me started on Kenders. We've had two significant blow-ups in our current group of 15 years, and the first and biggest was a direct result of a Kender PC. It's almost like someone said, "The Paladin doesn't ruin enough games."
I don't know what OOC knowledge you think I had but I knew nothing, I was amongst the pissed off and confused players who had their agency...As the GM who created the initial setting, NPCs, etc, as well as gave notes to the guest GM, you probably had a pretty good idea when things were going down a strange path, and that the shocking moment was not a normal plot hook. That's what I mean.
I don't know what the other players might have been thinking, of course, but keep in mind that it's a game, and it's supposed to be fun for everyone. Scary, disturbing, irreversible changes like this generally don't come without warning labels attached to them. Your players may have been shocked, but may not have realized that this was "not part of the plan".
But, you're right, I don't know and can't know. I can only go based on what you've said so far. You description of the game session has not been flattering. If I were you or your players, I'd be equally upset.
Here's the thing, though: your plan to punish the players for something at least one of them felt pigeonholed into? I have serious, serious doubts that it will have the effect you think it will.
art of the reason I'm frustrated is because people are assuming information they don't know and giving me their advice on how to be a GM that i simply didn't ask forWhen you come to these forums and ask for advice, you are getting the collective wisdom of a large number of gamers and GM's, many of whom have been playing this game and others like it since they first appeared in the 1970's. Sometimes that advice is an answer to a question that you didn't ask because they feel that the question you asked is built on some bad assumptions.
I've been playing this game since 1979. I've seen real friends get angry enough with one another to jeopardize real life relationships, multiple times. Plenty of people here can tell you horror stories of the same or worse. The common themes in these cases are mismatched...
Right I don't mean to sound disrespectful to the veterans here however I have been taking their advice and I've come to the conclusion I'm stuck in between a rock and a hard place here where I have to retcon this situation without slapping my Guest GM across the face and without giving my players a get out of jail free card, ya see my problem?
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@King_Namazu:
Here's my advice:
-Keep going with the events that unfolded, it's fine.
At a later date, during the campaign, your players might need the help of a commoner, expert or whatever, for whatever reason, the commoner refuses to help them because he recognized them as the ones who killed his nephew.
It's simple, drive home the point of their actions and help them realize that npcs are people too without removing the impact of the guest GM or screwing your plans for the session.
@King_Namazu:
Here's my advice:
-Keep going with the events that unfolded, it's fine.At a later date, during the campaign, your players might need the help of a commoner, expert or whatever, for whatever reason, the commoner refuses to help them because he recognized them as the ones who killed his nephew.
It's simple, drive home the point of their actions and help them realize that npcs are people too without removing the impact of the guest GM or screwing your plans for the session.
I ain't gonna lie that screws legit 75% of my plans for next session, but yeah I'd drop the trapped package
You really want to retcon without, well, retconing? There are plenty of mechanical ways of doing so. For instance, if a player has recently picked up an object that looks like a dragon, boom, Amatatsu Seal. All of this was a vision of the future by the player, grafted by an artifact. Now the players can stop this from happening, and it will happen if they don't prevent it.
If you don't want that artifact because it's from an adventure path, then try the Harrow Deck of Many Things The Unicorn card. Have your players get drunk at a bar and for a stranger to present them a deck of cards to draw one card from, with it being this card, which will allow them to undo what they did. Or if they have previously gotten drunk, have it where they drew The Vision card. They see two visions, one that is true, and one that is fake.
If you need more possible ways of making this work, I can keep looking, but I'm not even sure how you are going to react to these suggestions, so I'd rather not waste my time if you aren't going to take them.
My hands are completely tied here I ABSOLUTELY CANNOT retcon this by just wiping the board and acting like it didn't happen because it would hurt the feelings of my guest GM
If you can't ditch this you have to transform it into something positive... Authority will somehow declare the players innocent since someone else tempered with the Arena, but they will ask th players for their cooperation, why someone was willing to go that far to get to them ? What have they done ? WHo have they pissed off recently ? That is question that, if asked to my players will pissed them off especially if they don't know any of the answers... SO knowing my players they will turn every pebble in the city to find who has done that to them, especially since they can do it again at any time and they don't like it when they can't get a good sleep at the inn...
I f this isn't enough to make your players find who did this to clear their names then make a few mob movement against them, angry parents of the deceased accusing them of having used too much unnecessary violence, then a crying mother asking them to find "who di this to her son"... And with this they've got punished enough : a quest withoutr reward that they are practically forced to do because of their own action... That would piss my players too and give them the incentive to kick the butt of whoever the BBEG is for trying to frame them and make them "work for free" :p (All my players are Neutral with a little tendency to Good but not much and a very large tendency to Chaos :p )
] My hands are completely tied here I ABSOLUTELY CANNOT retcon this by just wiping the board and acting like it didn't happen because it would hurt the feelings of my guest GM
The guest GM that you said was quiting for the forseeable future? Ok, to each their own.
I have a really hard time seeing where this is any of the PC's fault. When did they realize that the combat was lethal? The arena was something that had been used before... the 'kids'(who even in Victorian England are pretty old to really be considered 'kids') were trained killers. The whole thing was co-opted by some dark evil figure into a death trap.
He's the killer not them. From what it sounds like, they were dead already. Even the ones who survived were turned to pudding. Had they gone non-lethal or intimidated... they still would have been puddinged'...
As a player I would find the situation so unfortunate that I'd be annoyed if the DM kept harping on it.
What kind of options are there? Where was this arena? Who were the witnesses? How would family and police even know it was them? 1)kids go missing all the time in that day and age... 2) the bodies are pudding! I would use this as a motivational factor to track down the evil jerkface who actually DID this to them, and not the ones who pulled the triggers in self-defense... Were they all part of the same moster hunting society? Those kind of groups tend to know the risks involved with that life.
It sounds like a rough night of gaming, but the only thing that could make it worse is to constantly rub your noses in it. It happened. It sucks. Let's track down this enemy and avenge them!
That's how I'd run it anyway.
For a Horror game a solid Haunting sounds like a lot of fun until they can be avenged.
] My hands are completely tied here I ABSOLUTELY CANNOT retcon this by just wiping the board and acting like it didn't happen because it would hurt the feelings of my guest GMThe guest GM that you said was quiting for the forseeable future? Ok, to each their own.
I have a really hard time seeing where this is any of the PC's fault. When did they realize that the combat was lethal? The arena was something that had been used before... the 'kids'(who even in Victorian England are pretty old to really be considered 'kids') were trained killers. The whole thing was co-opted by some dark evil figure into a death trap.
He's the killer not them. From what it sounds like, they were dead already. Even the ones who survived were turned to pudding. Had they gone non-lethal or intimidated... they still would have been puddinged'...
As a player I would find the situation so unfortunate that I'd be annoyed if the DM kept harping on it.
What kind of options are there? Where was this arena? Who were the witnesses? How would family and police even know it was them? 1)kids go missing all the time in that day and age... 2) the bodies are pudding! I would use this as a motivational factor to track down the evil jerkface who actually DID this to them, and not the ones who pulled the triggers in self-defense... Were they all part of the same moster hunting society? Those kind of groups tend to know the risks involved with that life.
It sounds like a rough night of gaming, but the only thing that could make it worse is to constantly rub your noses in it. It happened. It sucks. Let's track down this enemy and avenge them!
That's how I'd run it anyway.
For a Horror game a solid Haunting sounds like a lot of fun until they can be avenged.
I can't continue the particular storyline because it's not mine, and my guest GM might come back or at least I hope he will as he's a good friend of mine and hence why I have to retcon this in a way that will allow him to continue if he decides to and doesn't write his story off as something that never happened. The areana is in the middle of the guild hall courtyard as my campaign revolves around a monster hunting guild so I would immagine at least someone would have been watching and word would have spread to the family of the deceased NPCs. It wasn't the PC's fault it was just a mistake by my guest GM who is new to the practice and didn't realize a linear campaign could have this kind of effect and assumed I was done with the NPCs which for the most part I was however I was keeping them in my back pocket of sorts in case I might need them, at this moment I'm focusing on giving my players back their agency and giving them a chance to revive these npcs should they decide they want to , otherwise my goal is to move past this whole spectacle and get back to having fun but the circumstances of peoples feelings are something I have to work around at the moment as it's a delicate situation and ai can't send the wrong message to either my Guest GM or my players
I can't continue the particular storyline because it's not mine, and my guest GM might come back or at least I hope he will as he's a good friend of mine and hence why I have to retcon this in a way that will allow him to continue if he decides to and doesn't write his story off as something that never happened. The arena is in the middle of the guild hall courtyard as my campaign revolves around a monster hunting guild so I would imagine at least someone would have been watching and word would have spread to the family of the deceased NPCs. It wasn't the PC's fault it was just a mistake by my guest GM who is new to the practice and didn't realize a linear campaign could have this kind of effect and assumed I was done with the NPCs which for the most part I was however I was keeping them in my back pocket of sorts in case I might need them,
I'll admit I would have a tough time in a game run with two DMs and stories that start and end on a whim like that. I know our games had 2 DMs before my time, but it was two separate adventuring parties that would occassionaly crossover.
As a player, I would hate to have something like that just lie there... but these things happen.
at this moment I'm focusing on giving my players back their agency and giving them a chance to revive these npcs should they decide they want to , otherwise my goal is to move past this whole spectacle and get back to having fun but the circumstances of peoples feelings are something I have to work around at the moment as it's a delicate situation and ai can't send the wrong message to either my Guest GM or my players
And this sounds like a good response.
Not every night of adventuring is going to go as planned and dragging it out would probably end poorly. If the players don't want to wallow in it and the Guest DM is out and not dealing with it... then just move past it fast and get back to your own storyline.
Just think of all those comics, books, movies, or tv series that have the occasional cliffhanger or plot hook that isn't followed up on. Just have their reputation take a hit inside the monster society and move along business as usual. If there is any major fallout from this storyline, it should be reserved for the DM who wrote that storyline. Maybe he has something planned that required turning everything to pudding or some assassin in the wings to revenge the fallen. It wasn't your mess that was written, I wouldn't worry too much about how to deal with it after. If they can be raised, awesome (though not sure how if they are pudding blobs now...) if they can't then it's an unfortunate thing that happened and lets learn from it.