Can a snake animal companion wear Trained Barding?


Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

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As per Animal Archive, serpentine creatures don't have an armor body slot. However, Trained Barding says:

This suit of Large +2 scale mail barding is equipped with leather straps and loops suitable for attaching harnesses and leashes. It can fit any Large animal or magical beast, though not creatures of any other type. When worn by an animal, this armor grants the animal two additional tricks or one general purpose (as defined by the Handle Animal skill), determined at the time the armor is created.

So, is this a loophole or no dice?


The reason that snakes don't have an armor slot is that they'd slide right out of armor, right? Or possibly they'd have difficulty with their movement due to not being able to grip the ground as they usually would, but I'm betting on the first reason. So, do you think that trained barding gets around that somehow? That's the question you're asking.


As written, it does state that it can fit any Animal or Magical Beast.

Though there's always Barding Stitches:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/goods-and-services/animals-animal-gear/#T OC-Barding-Stitches


Since it's a magic item, I'd imagine it adapts itself to properly protect any sort of animal that wears it. As written, I'm inclined to think it works.


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Barding Stitches seem cruel, so I'd rather just see the magic armor work.


I'd personally say the item doesn't overwrite the snake's lack of a Body slot, though that's more of a gut call than a rules call. I see it more as "It can fit any animal capable of wearing armour," rather than magically granting it a body slot. If it had actually spelled out snakes and other creatures also being capable of wearing this, I'd say it works. Snakes are just screwed by a flavour ruling (a realistic ruling, but still annoying) that prevents them from wearing barding. As avr said, snakes either slither out of it, or can't move, if the armour said anything about that, I'd be inclined to allow it.


A snake has no slot to wear it. So it cant.

It is the exception as stated by slotting rules.


Have your animal take the feat Extra Item Slot <armor> and call it a day. :)


While I don't have any problem myself with allowing exotic barding or specially-made armor that would work for serpents and snakes, I would say that in this case, just being magical armor doesn't allow a snake to wear it.

As others have said, just because it adjusts or resizes doesn't mean it 'fits' everything or drastically reshapes itself. For instance, a magical earring could say it comfortably works for all creatures and resizes itself to a comfortable weight and size, but if a snake doesn't have ears... I wouldn't let a person just pierce a snake's head where a normal creature's ears would be and let them work as normal earrings.


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Have to wear it to get it to trigger

Can't wear it in the first place.

Outside of PFS extra item slot would let it work though

Sovereign Court

Oh well. Back to Mage Armor it is then.


Ascalaphus, it could just spend a feat to use armor.


They have necks, right? You could get it a fancy mithral collar.

Guardian Gorget

Sczarni

Gauss wrote:
Ascalaphus, it could just spend a feat to use armor.

Presumably this is for PFS, so no, it can't.

The Extra Item Slot feat only opens up slots from the chart in Animal Archive.

So a snake in PFS could select Belt, for example, but not Armor.

Grand Lodge

1. Armor and Body are two separate slots. A humanoid can wear both, but creatures need the armor or body slot. This is an armor item, so the creature needs Armor Slot. (The only animal type that gets Body slots are the Bipedal/(Hands) like apes.)

2. These are magic item slots, and do not (without further clarification) prevent a creature from wearing mundane armor that is purchased for their body type (I.E. Barding purchased as armor for unusual creatures from the equipment chapter of the Core Rulebook.)


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Have to wear it to get it to trigger

Can't wear it in the first place.

Outside of PFS extra item slot would let it work though

Magic item slots do not translate into physical slots. A human MAY only have 2 finger slots but can wear dozens of rings. And it can't be about it's physical form or headbands would be out and necklace would be in for snakes.

IMO, It'd fit any Large animal or magical beast as written. The lack of an armor slot is an issue though as it'd only function as armor without it's magic bonus or tricks, much like putting on a third ring. "Most magic items can only be utilized if worn or wielded in their proper slots. If the item is stowed or placed elsewhere, it does not function." If all you're looking for is the mundane AC bonus though, you should be fine.

However, if this IS for PFS, avoid this like the PLAGUE!!! Anything even remotely questionable should be bypassed to insure you will not have a bad time. If you have a constant DM, it wouldn't hurt to ask and see what they think.


graystone wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Have to wear it to get it to trigger

Can't wear it in the first place.

Outside of PFS extra item slot would let it work though

Magic item slots do not translate into physical slots. A human MAY only have 2 finger slots but can wear dozens of rings. And it can't be about it's physical form or headbands would be out and necklace would be in for snakes.

IMO, It'd fit any Large animal or magical beast as written. The lack of an armor slot is an issue though as it'd only function as armor without it's magic bonus or tricks, much like putting on a third ring. "Most magic items can only be utilized if worn or wielded in their proper slots. If the item is stowed or placed elsewhere, it does not function." If all you're looking for is the mundane AC bonus though, you should be fine.

However, if this IS for PFS, avoid this like the PLAGUE!!! Anything even remotely questionable should be bypassed to insure you will not have a bad time. If you have a constant DM, it wouldn't hurt to ask and see what they think.

Can't activate what you can't wear in a slot to activate is his point and he's right.

This isn't like a human having extra fingers for rings. It's about not having hands at all. The exact opposite.


Nefreet wrote:
Gauss wrote:
Ascalaphus, it could just spend a feat to use armor.

Presumably this is for PFS, so no, it can't.

The Extra Item Slot feat only opens up slots from the chart in Animal Archive.

So a snake in PFS could select Belt, for example, but not Armor.

At no point has the OP mentioned that this is for PFS so the assumption is that it is NOT for PFS. If it were he would have (or should have) mentioned it.

PFS is not the default.


Cavall wrote:
graystone wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Have to wear it to get it to trigger

Can't wear it in the first place.

Outside of PFS extra item slot would let it work though

Magic item slots do not translate into physical slots. A human MAY only have 2 finger slots but can wear dozens of rings. And it can't be about it's physical form or headbands would be out and necklace would be in for snakes.

IMO, It'd fit any Large animal or magical beast as written. The lack of an armor slot is an issue though as it'd only function as armor without it's magic bonus or tricks, much like putting on a third ring. "Most magic items can only be utilized if worn or wielded in their proper slots. If the item is stowed or placed elsewhere, it does not function." If all you're looking for is the mundane AC bonus though, you should be fine.

However, if this IS for PFS, avoid this like the PLAGUE!!! Anything even remotely questionable should be bypassed to insure you will not have a bad time. If you have a constant DM, it wouldn't hurt to ask and see what they think.

Can't activate what you can't wear in a slot to activate is his point and he's right.

This isn't like a human having extra fingers for rings. It's about not having hands at all. The exact opposite.

But they can wear it. Animal Archive set out MAGIC slots but not mundane slots. While they conflate the two, they are different things. For an example, a snake could easily wear a mundane necklace but can use a magic one because they don't have that slot for some reason.

Secondly, the ability to fit a "Large animal or magical beast" isn't described as a magical refitting ability but "leather straps and loops suitable for attaching harnesses and leashes".


Leather straps and loops SUITABLE FOR ATTACHING HARNESSES AND LEASHES

The straps and loops are not for attaching to animal.

Sovereign Court

Gauss wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Gauss wrote:
Ascalaphus, it could just spend a feat to use armor.

Presumably this is for PFS, so no, it can't.

The Extra Item Slot feat only opens up slots from the chart in Animal Archive.

So a snake in PFS could select Belt, for example, but not Armor.

At no point has the OP mentioned that this is for PFS so the assumption is that it is NOT for PFS. If it were he would have (or should have) mentioned it.

PFS is not the default.

Yeah, actually it was, I should have said so.


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toastedamphibian wrote:

Leather straps and loops SUITABLE FOR ATTACHING HARNESSES AND LEASHES

The straps and loops are not for attaching to animal.

But HARNESSES AND LEASHES ARE used to attach to animals, and if you have LEATHER STRAPS and LOOPS to attach to the HARNESSES AND LEASHES that fit your animal then... Since there is an archetype that uses a serpent as a mount, I'm going out on a limb to say that HARNESSES AND LEASHES and saddles are available for said mount.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Gauss wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Gauss wrote:
Ascalaphus, it could just spend a feat to use armor.

Presumably this is for PFS, so no, it can't.

The Extra Item Slot feat only opens up slots from the chart in Animal Archive.

So a snake in PFS could select Belt, for example, but not Armor.

At no point has the OP mentioned that this is for PFS so the assumption is that it is NOT for PFS. If it were he would have (or should have) mentioned it.

PFS is not the default.

Yeah, actually it was, I should have said so.

Ok, thank you for the clarification, now people can give you PFS based solutions. :)

Sczarni

I understand PFS isn't the default. My response was after that bit of information was revealed.


Nefreet wrote:
I understand PFS isn't the default. My response was after that bit of information was revealed.

Your response was after BigNorseWolf, who was not the OP, mentioned PFS.

It was not until just a few posts ago, which was after your response, that the OP revealed that this was in fact for PFS.


graystone wrote:
toastedamphibian wrote:

Leather straps and loops SUITABLE FOR ATTACHING HARNESSES AND LEASHES

The straps and loops are not for attaching to animal.

But HARNESSES AND LEASHES ARE used to attach to animals, and if you have LEATHER STRAPS and LOOPS to attach to the HARNESSES AND LEASHES that fit your animal then... Since there is an archetype that uses a serpent as a mount, I'm going out on a limb to say that HARNESSES AND LEASHES and saddles are available for said mount.

Your thinking of collars.

They mean you can attach leads, bags, saddles etc to the armor.

Sczarni

Gauss wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
I understand PFS isn't the default. My response was after that bit of information was revealed.

Your response was after BigNorseWolf, who was not the OP, mentioned PFS.

It was not until just a few posts ago, which was after your response, that the OP revealed that this was in fact for PFS.

I read the OP's response to BNW's PFS comment as an indication that his question was for a PFS character (which was the correct interpretation, in this case).

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Reading comprehension for the win.

Sczarni

Apologies for my persnicketiness. It's been a long weekend.


toastedamphibian wrote:
graystone wrote:
toastedamphibian wrote:

Leather straps and loops SUITABLE FOR ATTACHING HARNESSES AND LEASHES

The straps and loops are not for attaching to animal.

But HARNESSES AND LEASHES ARE used to attach to animals, and if you have LEATHER STRAPS and LOOPS to attach to the HARNESSES AND LEASHES that fit your animal then... Since there is an archetype that uses a serpent as a mount, I'm going out on a limb to say that HARNESSES AND LEASHES and saddles are available for said mount.

Your thinking of collars.

They mean you can attach leads, bags, saddles etc to the armor.

Thinking of harnesses... "a set of straps and fittings by which a horse or other draft animal is fastened to a cart, plow, etc., and is controlled by its driver." That set of straps that makes it so you could pull something.


Yes. And you can attach that to the armor. You don't attach the armor to that. Well, I suppose you could, if you wanted the horse to drag the armor...

Though more specifically, a harness is a stated item in pathfinder. It is for controlling and training domestic animals.
And provides a +2 bonus on handle animal checks to train tricks.

Considering the source, I am quite certain that this is what they are referring to.


Nefreet wrote:
Gauss wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
I understand PFS isn't the default. My response was after that bit of information was revealed.

Your response was after BigNorseWolf, who was not the OP, mentioned PFS.

It was not until just a few posts ago, which was after your response, that the OP revealed that this was in fact for PFS.

I read the OP's response to BNW's PFS comment as an indication that his question was for a PFS character (which was the correct interpretation, in this case).

I try not to make assumptions that are not in evidence. While the OP could have been stating 'back to mage armor' as an acknowledgement that there was no recourse but mage armor (due to PFS) or he may have had some other reason for ignoring the suggestion regarding the feat.

We simply do not know without making an assumption, which is something I try very hard not to do.

People regularly assume too much and as a result they make significant errors.

Nefreet wrote:
Apologies for my persnicketiness. It's been a long weekend.

Thank you.


Unknown for pfs or not, solution: give both answers.


toastedamphibian wrote:

Yes. And you can attach that to the armor. You don't attach the armor to that. Well, I suppose you could, if you wanted the horse to drag the armor...

Though more specifically, a harness is a stated item in pathfinder. It is for controlling and training domestic animals.
And provides a +2 bonus on handle animal checks to train tricks.

Considering the source, I am quite certain that this is what they are referring to.

That harness and the other harness can be the same kind of harness. For instance a backpack harness is one than a human wears that helps distribute the weight pack: The same can be does for a set of armor. It's a set of straps that distributes loads: In the case of 'controlling/training' is helps to keep a stable control point that the animal can't slip out of. For a worn item, it gives places to attach it.

Since we're talking about armor, you can also take harness to mean "personal fighting equipment, body armor," also "armor or trappings of a war-horse" or to use as a verb to "make ready, equip, arm,". it's only when taking it in a non-military sense that it's taken as "fittings for a beast of burden".

But back to a stated item, harness shows up in: Animal harness, Beast-training kit, Carriage, Cart, Handle harness, Horn harness, Second-story harness, Sled, Sleigh, Training harness, Wagon (heavy), Wagon (light).

Animal/training harness states it "can be made for nearly any creature".
Vehicles listed come with a harness, so clearly we have different harnesses for animals.
Handle/second story harness fits over armor/clothes of a PC.
Horn harness lashes someone to an animal horn.
So limiting 'harness' to just one item is disingenuous: even if we limit it to animal specific items, we have 2 different versions to look at.


And yet, affixing armor to any of those makes no sense.

You can attach any of those to your animal wearing trained armor. It has loops and straps for that. Not for afixing it to your animal.


toastedamphibian wrote:

And yet, affixing armor to any of those makes no sense.

You can attach any of those to your animal wearing trained armor. It has loops and straps for that. Not for afixing it to your animal.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. It seems perfectly sensible that barding can attach to a harness/set of straps in much the same way that a saddle attached to a belt/strap around the animal.

I'm unsure how any barding would fit without a set of straps to attach it. On the "loops and straps", I don't know why it's say anything if it doesn't work the way I'm thinking. What prevents a harness/leashes from working with NORMAL barding? It would seem odd if every horse pulling a war chariot would HAVE to have this armor to be able to wear armor and be attached to the chariot.


By that reasoning, why mention it if all barding and armor is already attached with what you are calling a harness?

My answer: It is armor specifically for people interested in training animals. When testing it, someone asked "can I still use my training harness while using this?". And so they added a quick line to indicate that, indeed, you can.

Does the barding also attach with some kind of strapping? Yeah, probably, most armor does. But that has nothing to do with the mention of harnesses and leashes.

Sovereign Court

Okay, here's the deal behind the question. Sometimes you see an ability and you think "hey, that would be awesome for me, but it maybe doesn't work". Sometimes, it turns out everyone else is like "oh, sure, that works fine".

This isn't one of those cases. Clearly it's not a clear-cut thing (at best) so no good for PFS for me.

I didn't want to miss out on a good option for not even asking, but this clearly won't work.

Scarab Sages

Was thinking about this one. Visually, I think the Snake Barding would look like a finger trap...


toastedamphibian: I didn't read your post as I'm uninterested in a prolonged back and forth that is going nowhere. You think it reads one way and I read it another. Unless one of us suddenly changed our point of view 180 degrees, I think it's unproductive to continue: feel free to continue posting, but don't expect any replies from me as I'm skipping your posts in this thread from now on.


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graystone wrote:
toastedamphibian: I didn't read your post as I'm uninterested in a prolonged back and forth that is going nowhere.

Dang it. Well, your missing out on a good time, but your loss I guess. No accounting for taste on these things I suppose.

You do you.

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