Quarterstaff of Entwined Serpents - who casts the MM?


Rules Questions

Sovereign Court

The staff allows you to cast MM at CL 3 at will, does any casting modifier that the PC has effect the MM?

The Exchange

more info needed. where this from, cause quick search failed me

Silver Crusade Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.

It's from Inner Sea Gods. Text:

Quote:
This +1 quarterstaff is made of wood carved and dyed to look like two entwined asps, one black and one white. At will, the wielder can use the staff to cast magic missile, creating two such missiles. One of the created missiles always takes the form of a glowing white snake, while the other missile always takes the form of a shadowy black snake. When held in hand, the wielder of the quarterstaff of entwined serpents can cast spells as if he had the Eschew Materials feat.

So, my read is no. It's a (quarterstaff) weapon with a spell ability, not a magic staff that takes input from the wielder.


Jeff Morse wrote:
more info needed. where this from, cause quick search failed me

The Quaterstaff on Entwined Serpents come from the Inner Sea Gods book

It's a CL3 Staff that can cast Magic Missile at will (2MM)... And the rule is : As for every magic object, it's the staff who cast, it cast at CL3, you can't add any of the feat or class ability you've got...

The Exchange

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kalindlara wrote:

It's from Inner Sea Gods. Text:

Quote:
This +1 quarterstaff is made of wood carved and dyed to look like two entwined asps, one black and one white. At will, the wielder can use the staff to cast magic missile, creating two such missiles. One of the created missiles always takes the form of a glowing white snake, while the other missile always takes the form of a shadowy black snake. When held in hand, the wielder of the quarterstaff of entwined serpents can cast spells as if he had the Eschew Materials feat.
So, my read is no. It's a (quarterstaff) weapon with a spell ability, not a magic staff that takes input from the wielder.

would agree with this. it goes into detail in what you get. one black and one white.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I know that flavor can be unimportant to the calorie-counters, and I accept that a ruling could be made to disallow the reading that this staff, sacred to the God of Magicians, allows the wielder "to cast magic missle". Yes, at 3rd level, but the weilder. Anyhow, that's the local reading, that it's possible.

So, in one local campaign, when our wizard Terra (who owned the staff) lent it to Maplewing (who had a power via Super-Genius' Youxia similar to the Arcanist's 'cast at +4 levels'), Terra kind of goggled at the white, and black, and red, and green missle-snakes, and hurriedly took back her staff.

It's a fond memory. Far fonder than slamming the 'No!' door would have been. And the damage from two more Magic Missles didn't break the game.

I understand some of you are on very strict diets. But please do consider, occasionally, trying a bit of cheese.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Flavor and campaign-specific rulings aside... this is the Rules Questions forum, so I answer by the rules here. Doing otherwise is likely to sow confusion, unless very specifically presented as a houserule.

In addition, as the OP is a Pathfinder Society Venture-Agent, presenting accurate rulings could be important to maintaining the quality of organized play.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Thornborn wrote:

I know that flavor can be unimportant to the calorie-counters, and I accept that a ruling could be made to disallow the reading that this staff, sacred to the God of Magicians, allows the wielder "to cast magic missle". Yes, at 3rd level, but [b]the weilder[/i]. Anyhow, that's the local reading, that it's possible.

So, in one local campaign, when our wizard Terra (who owned the staff) lent it to Maplewing (who had a power via Super-Genius' Youxia similar to the Arcanist's 'cast at +4 levels'), Terra kind of goggled at the white, and black, and red, and green missle-snakes, and hurriedly took back her staff.

It's a fond memory. Far fonder than slamming the 'No!' door would have been. And the damage from two more Magic Missles didn't break the game.

I understand some of you are on very strict diets. But please do consider, occasionally, trying a bit of cheese.

Hey don't assume what we're doing in our homegame... I think a lot of GM are willing to bend the rules for fluff sake if it's fun/dramatic/enjoyable/beacause we feel like it... ;)

But we are on the Rules Questions Forum... So we talk rules, not homebrew, if you let players get the rules wrong they might decide they can add abilities to every spell in magic object and sooner or later there will be abuse, then the GM will have to take drastic contermeasure against this abuse which is no fun for no one... :p

Silver Crusade Contributor

On top of all of that, the staff is already very good for its price.

-It's a wand of magic missile (CL 3) with no spellcaster-only use restriction... and infinite charges. The wand itself, without those secondary benefits, would be 2,250 gp.
-It's a +1 weapon, of a reasonably usable variety. That's another 2,600 gp.
-It grants full access to a feat without taking up a body slot, requiring attunement between periods of disuse, or any other significant hoops. Items that grant bonus feats vary wildly in price, so it's hard to put an exact cost on this... but most go for thousands of gp.

And you get all that in one item. You don't even have to worship Nethys. ^_^


1 person marked this as a favorite.

This is not a spell trigger charged staff with 10 charges that can be recharged where the user's caster level and relevant feats apply to the staff.

It is a magic weapon with an unlimited use magic spell and the ability to use a feat thrown onto it which also breaks pricing conventions.


I'm not yielding on the question of if the staff works with character abilities. I think the phrasing of the staff's powers suggests it might. I only accept that some have other opinions.

I do understand that most items do not use the phrasing "wielder can (use the staff to) cast (Magic Missle)", and so would not have the ability for the wielder to leverage whatever other cast-related powers they might have, when using those items. The other items would not, should not, but I think the staff does.

That this is the Rules Questions forum, does not give the (admittedly vast majority) of items any bearing on the powers of this staff. For the staff's write-up, also, is rules.

The item is largely a joke, costing 5050 for the 50/50 reference to Nethys, rather than whatever the bean-count would be. That the powers bought separately would add up to a greater cost misses the point that you can't use them all at the same time and that the powers all level poorly. It's an awesome low-level item, but there's a reason my feeble mage Maplewing had the lend of it from the Wizard Terra; Terra had far better options.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Thornborn, for the staff to work with any character abilities it would have to state as such. Where does it state that it does?

If you believe that it follows the rules for charged magic staves (and thus works with character abilities) where does it state that this is a charged staff or even that it is spell trigger?
It does not conform to the layout of charged staves.

In short, it does what it says and nothing more, like all magic items.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

IIRC, there's an Occultist archetype who can use their caster level in place of an item's caster level when using the item to cast spells.


Gauss, we both know I won't be able to cite, "This works with character abilities".

But I can quote "Wielder can use the staff to cast", and then find another character ability, "When you cast, use (whatever) to cast as if 4 levels higher". (Potent Magic Exploit Arcanist, Spell Sage Wizard, are two applicable examples.)

I'm not referring to, citing, or disputing the rules for charged staves. I'm not even saying they apply. I'm going no further than the item's own text.

You say, 'does what it says and nothing more'. Will you agree, also, nothing less?


Thornborn, I think you are misunderstanding how magic items work altogether.

"At will, the wielder can use the staff to cast magic missile, creating
two such missiles." = the user is having the staff cast magic missile.

Other magic items have similar wording, they do not in any way imply that a characters special abilities apply to the casting of that magic item's spell.

Ultimate Equipment p175 Ring of the Sophisticate wrote:
Also, once per day on command, the wearer can use the ring to cast either locate creature or locate object (the wearer’s choice).
CRB p460 wrote:
Some individual items, notably those that just store spells, don’t get full-blown descriptions. Reference the spell’s description for details, modified by the form of the item (potion, scroll, wand, and so on). Assume that the spell is cast at the minimum level required to cast it.

It is a 'spell in a box'. The spell does what it does, nothing more. It is prepackaged.

Staves (as in the kind with charges) are unique in that they can be altered by the user's abilities. This is not one of those items.


Um... more importantly, raw, an items spell abilities are cast at its cl, and a weapons cl is the highest among its special abilities or that required by its Enhancment bonus. Greater Transformative Quaterstaff on Entwined Serpents costs 20050 and has a cl of 15...


Hmmm, MM caps out at 9th level. A +1 Flaming Quaterstaff of Entwined Serpents has a cl of 10 and costs 11050. Bargain.


this is not a staff with charges that can be effected by your abilities and such it's a magic weapon that can cast a limited version of a spell. look at the requrments to craft it "craft arms and armor" not "craft staves". if it was not crafted as a staff but as a weapon its not a staff it's a weapon and you can't use staff rules on it.

also since it's a named item you can't change any aspect of it without gm allowance.

The Exchange

zza ni wrote:

this is not a staff with charges that can be effected by your abilities and such it's a magic weapon that can cast a limited version of a spell. look at the requrments to craft it "craft arms and armor" not "craft staves". if it was not crafted as a staff but as a weapon its not a staff it's a weapon and you can't use staff rules on it.

also since it's a named item you can't change any aspect of it without gm allowance.

makes great point. Missed the craft arms thing.


zza ni wrote:

also since it's a named item you can't change any aspect of it without gm allowance.

Weapons and Armor in this book have a special entry at the begining that specifically state these objects, though being named objects, can be upgraded :

Quote:

This section focuses on relatively inexpensive magic armors and shields that low-level characters can afford. For higher level characters, remember that these armors can be upgraded like any other magic item by adding “plus equivalent” or “gp value” abilities, then paying the difference between the original item’s price and the price of the item when upgraded with the additional special abilities.

Likewise, variants of these armors may exist using different types of armor, such as Deadeye leather, which is made from leather armor instead of studded leather.

So no need to ask the GM for these it's RAW to upgrade them ;)


sure. adding flaming is one thing, and can be figured easly. but increasing the level the spell is cast at is someting else. and it's not like adding a +1 to the weapon. there is no seet cost to it. so it's a costum craft and need gm aproval.
the fact other abilities of the crafting need a caster at level 9 doesn't mean the spell is cast at that level. same as you can skip that requirment by adding +5 tothe dc doesn't mean the caster level actuly changed.


Eh. Disagree. It Should, but Does Not. The item Should cost more to begin with.

Quote:

Caster Level (CL): The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation.

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself.

Quote:
Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Quarterstaff of Entwined Serpents - who casts the MM? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.