can players not tell thier GM thier health?


Advice


I must know. because my GM either coddles us the players or enjoys tormenting us.he will ask us how much health we have and decide how many people can attack you. either way, I don't much like that way of playing very much. sometimes I think it would be better if he just killed our PCs so we and he would learn something.most the time its the GM throwing impossible odds at us than saving us with gm interventions which to me does not feel very heroic.


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This sounds like a dysfunctional game that you should talk with your GM about. If you and he continue to have different ideas about what is fun, then you should stop playing with him.


he is just used to coddling one of the other players who will throw a tantrum if one of his PCs die. I told my DM he can kill me just make it epic.


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As a GM if I was to ask anything about someones character I expect an answer and as a player if the GM wants to know something I tell them. From the sounds of things I'm inclined to agree with Philo.

As both player and GM I've found that instituting something similar to the 5e d&d death saving throw mechanics has improved the game a great deal. As there is no longer a chance of being killed outright from hp damage without having a number of death saving throws as a buffer, the GM doesn't have to pull punches if a player has low hp.


Different GMs have different styles. Some will track health on their own. I do not. I also do not ask for HP totals, if a PC dies it dies. Sometimes

I give players opportunities to come back depending up resources and the reason they died (really bad luck earns really good luck, especially if it works for the story).y

I have played under GMs who GM the way you describe. It can be fun. Sometimes, I'll just say, "attack me and find out." With the right GM it's usually fun and he/she knows that they can trust me to be honest when I go down.

I don't think this is a game ender, but you should have a chat with the GM. It's more awkward to simply refuse to answer the question, unless you have established that rapport. If the problem is truly the other players, just say that you are happy to tell him your hps, but honestly it doesn't matter to you and are fine with him attacking as demanded by strategy. If he won't go for it, you'll have to tell him if you want to keep playing because a dispute like this will just destroy the table.

So talk and work with him, I suspect if he understands your concerns he might change his approach. But no guarantees, depends on the type of GM.


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I mean, it's not unreasonable for a GM to ask about a character's health/damage so as to adjust the tactics of antagonists. Just like how PCs might decide to direct certain tactics against opponents who appear more or less injured, antagonists might direct certain tactics against PCs who are more or less injured.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, after all.

That being said, if you do not trust the GM to the point where you believe they will use this information to make the game more fun, why are you even in this game? Trust between the GM and the players is really important...


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I saw this really cool idea that you should suggest to your GM/table.

It's basically a guide that says that death is never an option. once you "die" you're just out of the fight and once it's over you're back alive at 1 hp. BUT there's also an option for a player to turn on true death mode, which is where they get a small boost but death is actual death during it. Just get the table to use it and then the guy that doesn't want a character to die never dies, the GM doesn't need to pull punches, and you can risk death whenever you want.


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Chess Pwn wrote:

I saw this really cool idea that you should suggest to your GM/table.

It's basically a guide that says that death is never an option. once you "die" you're just out of the fight and once it's over you're back alive at 1 hp. BUT there's also an option for a player to turn on true death mode, which is where they get a small boost but death is actual death during it. Just get the table to use it and then the guy that doesn't want a character to die never dies, the GM doesn't need to pull punches, and you can risk death whenever you want.

You are looking for Ryan Stoughton's "Raising the Stakes" a PDF version of which can be downloaded here. It's designated Open Content, as per section 15 in the OGL so there are no copyright issues. Specifically the "Death Flag" section on page 5.

It's a pretty easy thing to bolt on to basically any D20 game, particularly one that doesn't already try to solve this problem (like Pathfinder.)

Sovereign Court

Interesting...some players in my games even died on their first game with me. I always find it fascinating to see the stories of GM actually making it a bit easier for the players.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

I saw this really cool idea that you should suggest to your GM/table.

It's basically a guide that says that death is never an option. once you "die" you're just out of the fight and once it's over you're back alive at 1 hp. BUT there's also an option for a player to turn on true death mode, which is where they get a small boost but death is actual death during it. Just get the table to use it and then the guy that doesn't want a character to die never dies, the GM doesn't need to pull punches, and you can risk death whenever you want.

You are looking for Ryan Stoughton's "Raising the Stakes" a PDF version of which can be downloaded here. It's designated Open Content, as per section 15 in the OGL so there are no copyright issues. Specifically the "Death Flag" section on page 5.

It's a pretty easy thing to bolt on to basically any D20 game, particularly one that doesn't already try to solve this problem (like Pathfinder.)

YUP! that's the one alright. I feel it's super useful if the party/some of the party don't want to risk death of their character. I'd totally use it in a home game


I agree with Decimus Drake that a GM should be able to expect an answer on anything he asks. There are lots of reasons the GM may need your exact HP to determine if something affects your character. Keep one thing in mind that the GM is the final authority in a game. As a player you can never really win an argument with the GM about the rules. What the GM says is the final word on any rule. If you disagree with his ruling your choices are to accept it anyways or leave the game. On the other hand a good GM will always listen to his players and try to work with them, but in the end he still has the final word.

Grand Lodge

Dot for interest.

As a DM who 'may' sometimes walk this line I'm really interested to hear what you guys have to say.

More importantly, it's something I'm going to ask my Players about this weekend.
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My PCs have Hero Points and another mechanic I created (Bad Ass Point) and are pretty high level, now. So we're not too worried about final death. I've noticed that PCs haven't been dropping below zero in recent months and I've wondered if my encounters were too easy or if the group was just getting better at tactics. It's NOT my job, afterall, to kill PCs. Of course, it IS my job to make sure the encounters are challenging since that's where you have fun -- and some memorable moments.

And I have become concerned from time to time and asked, "Uh oh, how far down are you?" Although it's not because I'm planning to pull punches; it's more to make sure the other PCs realize what's what.

But I am going to ask them about it.


Yes a GM has the right to ask for any information regarding his game. What seems to be the problem is that you disagree with how the dm uses that information. We are human and can't keep track of everything constantly. We make mistakes and sometimes have to adjust, particularly with homebrew monsters. Balancing encounters is more of an artform than a science and it takes months of weekly play to get it just right for a game system, particularly if your going for tight encounters. Also some dms just hate killing PCs. Typically because some player(s) has reacted poorly to such in the past. We try to give our players a good time and bad experiences can seriously deter doing certain things again. Just my insight from behind the screen

Things that might help
1. Encourage your dm when he does a good encounter. This will make him feel good and probably lead to more of a similiar style
2. Ask to implement a death save or death flag system. 5e was already mentioned but also look at Pokemon Tabletop Adventures
3. You might ask the dm to attack until your at least unconscious but not coup de grace. After all its what PCs usually do. Also it still gives a fair chance of dying


DMs asking for player information is fair enough, but it can also be deeply frustrating.

For instance I've seen a DM ask a player mid encounter how many spells of a certain spell slot he had left, something he is perfectly within his rights to do, but then clearly used this information to inform how an opponent responded to said Players character. This level of DM metaknowledge can be very frustrating for players, it damages verisimilitude and makes each combat seem not like you're fighting X thing with X knowledge but rather X thing with omniscience.

You can tell me until you're blue in the face that its for encounter balance and that being a DM is hard (I know, I've done it, I hate it) but at the end of the day if a DM is doing something for whatever reason that the players are not enjoying they should stop doing it. Its actively causing them to fail in their job because of it.

I can see the DM has good intentions worrying that killing PCs will ruin the game but if this level of weird meta coddling is doing the same something needs to change.

I suggest talking to him about it in private, sure one player hates dying but you don't I you do hate the coddling. Does he understand that this bothers you?


I don't track my players HP, I do a general "they have been hit x times" to get an idea, but the monsters have no idea how tough these adventurers, so neither do I (to an extent).

Then again, I try not to pull my punches and my players know this. Monsters try to act as close to as they should.

Silver Crusade

SorrySleeping wrote:
I don't track my players HP, I do a general "they have been hit x times" to get an idea, but the monsters have no idea how tough these adventurers, so neither do I (to an extent).

Well, to a degree, but you should be able to tell at a glance roughly how hurt someone is. If they're bleeding from a dozen wounds, stumbling, etc.

Sovereign Court

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Stuff I imported from 4th edition and we still use it:

-Bloodied: when you have taken half of your hp as damage. We use it at our table, it's simple and clear. There are no penalties or stuffs related to it, just simply it's a bit obvious on some creatures that you have damaged quite a bit.


What it really comes down to is if you don’t like the way the GM is running the game talk to him about it. If he is not willing to change how he runs then you have to decide if you want to remain in the game. No matter what tactics you use the GM is the one in control of the game. Not telling the GM something he asks and has a need to know is not the answer. If I had a player that refused to answer a question I asked them about the character I would not put up with it. In the case of a player not telling me his HP I would simply decide how many HP he had left and that would be how many he had. More than likely if he was awake it would be 1.

Luckily none of the people I game with would do this. We are good friends and have too much respect for each other to pull this kind of crap on each other. If someone is not enjoying the game they we talk about it and come up with a solution to the problem or in very rare cases decide that the person with the problem should not be part of the group. We have had maybe 3 people that were either kicked out or chose not to come back to the game in about 30+ years.


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My group uses the levels of health from the deathwatch spell, as the healer is wearing deathwatch eyes. We also added in bloodied, from 4th ed. So they have 5 levels. Healthy(more than half hp) -> Bloodied(half ho) -> Fighting off death(less than half, more than 4 hp) -> Fragile(less than 4 hp) -> Dead (negative CON mod hp).


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When I GM I generally play my monsters and select targets that make sense for them. Beater monsters beat on things, smarter monsters try to make the best tactical decision they can.

I usually find out that a player has low health because a monster will hit them and a player will report to their comrades that they're injured and starting to worry about it or possibly bleeding out.


THUNDER_Jeffro wrote:

When I GM I generally play my monsters and select targets that make sense for them. Beater monsters beat on things, smarter monsters try to make the best tactical decision they can.

I usually find out that a player has low health because a monster will hit them and a player will report to their comrades that they're injured and starting to worry about it or possibly bleeding out.

That is how my games turn out, too. The party informs each other of any risk, from "Just a flesh wound" to "I can't take another hit. Cover my retreat," because that is part of their teamwork.

And since the teamwork protects the players, I don't have to hold back. The intelligent monsters use tactics, the organized monsters sound alarms, the hungry monters go for easy prey.


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Players can of course keep their health information from a GM. Generally speaking, it isn't any of a GMs business.

Players cannot keep their characters statistics, including hit points, from a GM though, that is something entirely different.


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Dave Justus wrote:
Players can of course keep their health information from a GM. Generally speaking, it isn't any of a GMs business.

I feel like it's okay to ask players about food allergies or other dietary restrictions so you don't accidentally poison them with the baked goods you brought to the game.


If I bake something for my players I expect them to bloat on it! I am the GM, dammit! Allergies? Who cares? ;-D


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Kileanna wrote:
If I bake something for my players I expect them to bloat on it! I am the GM, dammit! Allergies? Who cares? ;-D

I bake for games because I like to bake and if I'm not giving this stuff away then I end up eating more of it than I probably should. So it's like a symbiotic relationship.


I don't want my GM to coddle me, which I know he is doing. if I do something stupid and it ends up with me dying good maybe my next reincarnation won't be that stupid on his or her turn on the wheel. if my GM is coddling my PC then there is no risk and if my PC did not want any risk they would not have become an adventurer.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
zainale wrote:
I don't want my GM to coddle me, which I know he is doing.

Then stop hiding that fact. Tell him you don't want to be coddled, and you know he is doing it. And if he doesn't stop it, you won't be able to play with him anymore. Passive aggressive 'I am not telling you my HP' tactics don't solve the problem.


Your GM might be "coddling" you because he's also creating encounters that are too difficult for the PCs to win on their own if the monsters fight in a tactically sound manner. In fact, based on some of your comments in this thread and the one about the magic ring I'd say that sounds likely.

A GM using "homebrewed" material should probably be able to challenge an average party with mostly encounters of CR = APL, especially at the lower levels.


I mean, "the GM came up with something they thought would be cool but realized a few rounds in that they miscalculated and this is way more powerful than they thought" is the sort of thing that's going to happen whenever your GM comes up with something on their own (which they should, IMO.)

So unless you've previously established some other means of heading off "that fight really shouldn't have been that tough, oops" (like the "death flag" or a "PCs can always successfully run away if the entire party agrees to do so" rule), you're going to end up having to call an audible here or there. Ideally, you can do this subtly enough that people won't figure out what you're doing (this is possible, despite what anyone claims), but it's generally better to head off these problems at the pass since if you can (and will) make a mistake with homebrew, you likewise have to admit that you can (and will) make a mistake in making your course correction subtle enough that you aren't hurting anybody's experience.


My first GM was a coddling one, we literally never died, but the encounter were fun and the roleplay was intersting so, as players, we didn't really cared, it was good for us, after all it wax our first roleplaying game and we were young... :p
My second GM was a Warhammer 1st ed. sadist GM... We were not allowed to know our exact HP and the ennemies were tailored to gives us extreme edge but it was well done and really fitted the Gim'N'Gritty universe of Warhammer so I was cool with it, the roleplay was great and we had fun constantly living on the brinks of death... The only annoying things was when the GM saved the Big Boss in a too obvious way but whatever, everyone were having fun so... ;)

When I first took the role of GM I had a tendancy for cuddling... But my seasoned players quickly told me that they didn't like too much GM intervention in theiur fate... They are prepared to die and they like the idea they can die... So I even roll my attack dice in front of them and they like it like this... I even gives them the +x to touch of my monsters to clearkly show them that I don't "cheat".
Though, by a tacite rule, my monsters do not go as far as "coup de grace" a fallen player if the others are still alive and threatening (with this they know that retreating without trying to take their casualties lead in the death of the ones left behind :p )'cause that is a too easy way to kill someone, not heroic at all... Of course it's something else if a rogue/wizard can get by the guard in camp, go in a tent hold person and coup de grace... That is, from they point of view, a totally good tactic from the GM to kill someone, or for them to do the same...
For them that's the most important point : They should be able to do use the same tactics as monsters and I should be able to use the same as them.
Add to that that they all are min/maxer then you know that I have to do a lot of work as GM even when using an Adventure path to remodel all monsters to min/max them too... :p
They expect to be rewarded for good idea and punished for dumb one... And they expect monsters to have a life on their own, not react from what they are doing while monsters can't see them... They usually have limited info on the ennmy at first, but the ennemy is the same...
They like the equality with GM mobs and them... So this is how we play it since it's what they find fun... And I don't dislike it though I usually prefer differently I find this way fun also so no problem from me...

At your next session, before beginning you should take your time and ask everyone what are their expectations from the game... What is fun for thezm ? Is there something they would change in the way the game is currently played or is there something that they don't like and they would like to change ?

You should arrive at a consensus for everyone to have fun, if not time for another table... :p

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