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Is there any mechanical reason for a character suffering a disease to stop doing their normal daily routine and stay sick in bed? It's the stereotype, for sure. Bed rest cures all ailments.
However, as long as they're ill, they can't naturally heal any of the ability score damage they took from the disease. After they made the requisite number of saves, full days of bed rest will help in the healing of ability score damage, but only after they made the saves.
Being sequestered will lower the chance that someone else catches the disease, for sure. But it doesn't appear to help the person actually affected, at all.
Is there any mechanical reason for a character suffering a disease to stop doing their normal daily routine and stay sick in bed? It's the stereotype, for sure. Bed rest cures all ailments.
However, as long as they're ill, they can't naturally heal any of the ability score damage they took from the disease. After they made the requisite number of saves, full days of bed rest will help in the healing of ability score damage, but only after they made the saves.Being sequestered will lower the chance that someone else catches the disease, for sure. But it doesn't appear to help the person actually affected, at all.
Depends on the disease but the only thing that I see that would change when sick and full resting is if the sickness damage your hp or some abilities, since on full rest you gain twice as much hp and if someone heal you with long term care you regain twice the ability damage... That and the Treat Disease with heal can help too... ;)
Natural Healing
With a full night’s rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level. Any significant interruption during your rest prevents you from healing that night.If you undergo complete bed rest for an entire day and night, you recover twice your character level in hit points.
and
Provide Long-Term Care
Providing long-term care means treating a wounded person for a day or more. If your Heal check is successful, the patient recovers hit points or ability score points (lost to ability damage) at twice the normal rate: 2 hit points per level for a full 8 hours of rest in a day, or 4 hit points per level for each full day of complete rest; 2 ability score points for a full 8 hours of rest in a day, or 4 ability score points for each full day of complete rest.
You can tend as many as six patients at a time. You need a few items and supplies (bandages, salves, and so on) that are easy to come by in settled lands. Giving long-term care counts as light activity for the healer. You cannot give long-term care to yourself.
Action/Time: 8 hours.
Retry? Varies. Generally speaking, you can’t try a Heal check again without witnessing proof of the original check’s failure.
Treat Disease
To treat a disease means to tend to a single diseased character. Every time the diseased character makes a saving throw against disease effects, you make a Heal check. If your Heal check exceeds the DC of the disease, the character receives a +4 competence bonus on his saving throw against the disease.
Action/Time: 10 minutes.
Retry? Varies. Generally speaking, you can’t try a Heal check again without witnessing proof of the original check’s failure.
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Is there any mechanical reason for a character suffering a disease to stop doing their normal daily routine and stay sick in bed? It's the stereotype, for sure. Bed rest cures all ailments.
However, as long as they're ill, they can't naturally heal any of the ability score damage they took from the disease. After they made the requisite number of saves, full days of bed rest will help in the healing of ability score damage, but only after they made the saves.Being sequestered will lower the chance that someone else catches the disease, for sure. But it doesn't appear to help the person actually affected, at all.
As with real life, bed rest present two benefits.
1 Bed rest (with eating and fluids) allows your body to focus on healing, while you wait for your body to fight off the illness (or injury) naturally. Regarding real life, chances are pretty good that if you are sick, it started because of something you deprived your body of while out and about (like fatigue, dehydration, sleep depravation, or not eating the right foods), which resulted in a weakened immune defense, which allowed you to get sick.
Basically, for Pathfinder this translates as you making daily heal checks on yourself, or someone else would be making them on you. Heal can be attempted untrained.
2 Bed rest is a self imposed quarentine. Allows the sick person the lower the risk the rest of the population, and lowers the risk of catching something else while their body's defenses are down due to the illness they presently have. As an aside, for pathfinder, the real danger of diseases isn't that the disease will kill you, but that they will make it easier for you to die from something else.
As with real life, bed rest present two benefits.
1 Bed rest (with eating and fluids) allows your body to focus on healing, while you wait for your body to fight off the illness (or injury) naturally. Regarding real life, chances are pretty good that if you are sick, it started because of something you deprived your body of while out and about (like fatigue, dehydration, sleep depravation, or not eating the right foods), which resulted in a weakened immune defense, which allowed you to get sick.
Basically, for Pathfinder this translates as you making daily heal checks on yourself, or someone else would be making them on you. Heal can be attempted untrained.
2 Bed rest is a self imposed quarentine. Allows the sick person the lower the risk the rest of the population, and lowers the risk of catching something else while their body's defenses are down due to the illness they presently have. As an aside, for pathfinder, the real danger of diseases isn't that the disease will kill you, but that they will make it easier for you to die from something else.
3 As said in the first post it lower the risk of spreading the disease ;)
4 Pay 150PO to have Remove Disease cast on you and you're good to go :p
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4 Pay 150PO to have Remove Disease cast on you and you're good to go :p
If you have a trusted caster to do this, sure, that's a great solution.
If you lack spellcraft, a non-trusted caster may take advantage of the situation and cast a different spell on you. You also might not be in a situation where you can find a caster for that spell. Could try a potion, wand, or scroll, but then you have to acquire those, and it might still require stills and trust you don't have. Or maybe there is an option, but you just can't afford it.
Or you could just try the bed approach. It's what peasents do. Works okay provided you have a decent CON score. A couple of days with good fortitude saves, and you'll be back in action.
Most of the naturally occuring diseases have low Fortitude DCs, if you didn't notice.
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Loengrin- hit point and ability score damage dealt by an affliction (which covers diseases, poisons, curses, and a few more things) cannot be healed naturally while the affliction remains. Thus natural healing and long term care are both totally ineffective in healing the damage dealt by a disease.
Also, using the heal skill to treat a disease is an action taking 10 minutes. Not exactly a huge time investment against the amount of time in a day.
Murdock- 1: Per PF rules natural healing won't do anything to damage dealt by a disease while the disease persists.
2: Self-quarantine mentioned in the OP. And the level 1 and 2 commoners of the world (a majority of the population) would disagree with you. Filth fever is a very deadly threat to NPCs.
Loengrin- 3: Agreed. 4: 150gp is an enormous sum of money to an NPC. Well beyond what most of the population of Golarion makes in a year.
From the responses so far (and thank you to everyone that HAS responded <3), it looks like bed rest is of no use to a sick character. Bed rest IS useful to a character that WAS sick and took some kind of damage (hit points or ability score) and wants it to heal naturally.
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From the responses so far (and thank you to everyone that HAS responded <3), it looks like bed rest is of no use to a sick character. Bed rest IS useful to a character that WAS sick and took some kind of damage (hit points or ability score) and wants it to heal naturally.
Bed rest of no use to a sick character, as opposed to a normal day of safe activity. But adventuring as a diseased character is not better for you than bed rest. Adventuring is, by it's nature, bad for your health.
And, psychologically, the diseased character will probably seek bed rest, just because their ability scores and healing would normally be addressed by bed rest, so the average joe would logically seek to remedy the situation in the same manner, especially if they hadn't identified the disease yet.
For real life, how many days of bed rest would you attempt before you went to the hospital? Most people wait a few days before going to hospital. And most people wait a few days before taking time off work for bed rest. 4 days actually being sick before going a doctor seem reasonable? Seems reasonable for me. So for filth fever, say one successful save in there, so 3 days worth of failed saves, or 3-9 points of DEX and CON damage, before considering seeking an actual doctor? Yeah, that sounds about right. Could certainly be life threatening.
But, for me, going to the doctor every time I felt even a little sick would be finacially life threatening, so, I'm not about to change my ways....
Loengrin- 3: Agreed. 4: 150gp is an enormous sum of money to an NPC. Well beyond what most of the population of Golarion makes in a year.
From the responses so far (and thank you to everyone that HAS responded <3), it looks like bed rest is of no use to a sick character. Bed rest IS useful to a character that WAS sick and took some kind of damage (hit points or ability score) and wants it to heal naturally.
As a GM I would grant a circumstance bonus to the save if a PC rest and and even greater one if he get long term care by someone competent in heal... Don't forget the circumstances bonus, they are here for a reason ;)
Players can ask for it if the GM forget them :pAlso don't try to compare high magic fantasy world with our medieval world... 150gp is a huge sum for a peasant but not something he make in a year...
Here is the price for an untrained Hireling per the rules :
Untrained Hirelings (1 gp–3 gp/day) The amount shown is the typical daily wage for general, or unskilled laborers, maids, and other menial workers. This listing includes any sort of typical employment not covered by another service or job in this section. Examples of untrained hirelings include a town crier, general laborer, maid, mourner, porter, or other menial worker. A trained hireling is a mason, mercenary warrior, carpenter, blacksmith, cook, scribe, painter, teamster, and so on. The listed price represents a minimum wage for an adequately skilled worker, and an expert hireling usually requires significantly higher pay. The listed price is a day’s wages (generally 7–10 hours of work per day).
And don't forget that good religion will try to help in case of an epidemic... Though rich may be helped first of course... :p
But a devout well known in his temple can ask for a favour from the priest/cleric of his temple for a spell (yes it's what being part of an organization can grant you as per the organization rules ;) )That's why in high magic world disease is a less threatening than it was IRL...
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How much npcs make have been discussed in many threads before but anyway in brief:
The average farmer with profession (farmer) makes 5 gp a week on average, 30 gp a month and 350 gp in a year.
This doesn't take into account that they need to buy food, pay their taxes and various stuffs that can happen.
Anyway you can search that information easily on Paizo forums.
Also funny enough on the same page talking about the hirelings trained and untrained they say that they make 1 sp-3 sp a day and in the following section, they talk about gp per day.
Obviously one of these sections is wrong.
How much npcs make have been discussed in many threads before but anyway in brief:
The average farmer with profession (farmer) makes 5 gp a week on average, 30 gp a month and 350 gp in a year.
This doesn't take into account that they need to buy food, pay their taxes and various stuffs that can happen.
Anyway you can search that information easily on Paizo forums.
Also funny enough on the same page talking about the hirelings trained and untrained they say that they make 1 sp-3 sp a day and in the following section, they talk about gp per day.
Obviously one of these sections is wrong.
You can take into account newer rules with the Ultimate Campaign and a team of 5 laborer making an average of 6GP a day without a place to operate...
A small caravan crew will with 2 drivers, 5 guards and 5 laborers will gain 18GP a day per average...lol if you want to become a farmer just get :
FARMLAND
Earnings gp or Goods +10Create 15 Goods, 15 Labor (600 gp); Time 20 days
Size 60–100 squares
This large swath of fertile land is used for farming or fodder
for livestock. The price for this room includes clearing the land,
fertilizing the soil, and so on. At the GM’s discretion, you might
discover a plot of available land that automatically counts as a
Farmland at no cost.
GP or Goods +10 mean you can make 20gp/day if you take 10 on your dice... :p
People go to work and do their daily routines even if they are sick...so not sure what's the issue here. Some people even go to work when they are about to die...so heh.
Ah, yes, the office Typhoid Mary.
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@Murdock- While I don't disagree with your statements regarding adventuring, psychology, or real life, I'm looking to limit this to a rules discussion.
@Loegrin- the Profession skill says that an untrained worker makes 1sp per day, so less than 1gp per week. This person is screwed. A trained level 1 commoner with 10 wisdom would have a profession bonus of +4, for an average roll of ~15. This nets him ~7.5 gp per week. Minus average cost of living of 10 gp per month nets this NPC ~20gp per month, assuming no other expenses.
So while the 150gp is less than a trained worker brings home in a year, it is more than half his yearly earnings. Plus, it's very likely our NPC will have to travel to the cleric, thus putting himself at personal risk and everyone else as risk of disease. I can't imagine the ratio of clerics to level 1-2 commoners is good. The goodly clerics are probably going to be in population centers where they can hopefully help the most people. Sucks to live in a smaller town.
But this is still getting away from the rules bit of the original question.
@Murdock- While I don't disagree with your statements regarding adventuring, psychology, or real life, I'm looking to limit this to a rules discussion.
@Loegrin- the Profession skill says that an untrained worker makes 1sp per day, so less than 1gp per week. This person is screwed. A trained level 1 commoner with 10 wisdom would have a profession bonus of +4, for an average roll of ~15. This nets him ~7.5 gp per week. Minus average cost of living of 10 gp per month nets this NPC ~20gp per month, assuming no other expenses.
lol the Profession skill come from the Core Rulebook... The rules from Farmland comes from Ultimate Campaign, mine is the newest :p
I've read a lot of bnooks on High Magic Society and don't even try to consider a population that can read and write, have regular access to miracle and magic to our society, there's slave in some place but majority is free they can go were the grass is greener...
Everyone is way richer than you think or else there would be way more adventurer than farmer... Look at how much 1 adventurer spend on food, drinking and lodging in a year... This money is redistributed...
Farmer's are poor but they are poor by heroes standard who begin with 100-200GP at 16-18 year... In some countries there's entire legion of Paladins and Loyal Good Clerics, Loyal Good Wizards etc... Don't you think they help the population a lot ? :)
You better compare the high magic fantasy society to ours, some countries are full of very poor people with usually a very few ultra rich or just rich (except in fantasy world they are usually Evil countries unlike our world :p), but most countries have some poor people with a majority of medium wealthy people and, of course rich ones and very very rich ones... ;)
AFAICT, Ectar, you are completely correct; quarantine is the only benefit. There should be a substantial circumstance bonus (I'd say +4) to your save that day, but RAW there isn't, or rather it's left to the GM.
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@Murdock- While I don't disagree with your statements regarding adventuring, psychology, or real life, I'm looking to limit this to a rules discussion.
You mean from a metagaming rules stance?
Without the character having outside knowledge: The diseased character doesn't know they have a disease until someone thinks to use a skill or spell to identify it. The player knows that they are making daily fortitude saves, though some GMs do this in secret. They might be aware of the ability damage, but the GM may also be secretly applying these penalties to their rolls. At some point, the character may become aware that they seem to be underpreforming in even the simplist tasks, hopefully they see a doctor/healer, then.
With metagaming allowed: the characters knows instantly that they contracted a disease because they attempt a fortitude save vs disease and fail. They know that bed rest does nothing against disease damage to ability scores. They seek out a cleric and get it healed. This sort of cold logic is really bad roleplaying, by the way.
Regarding cost of the cleric, disease is a community issue. Good/lawful clerics will cure it first, then may require additional services or payment (or conversion to their faith). But they will cure it, if they can, because disease is not something that you want in your Good/Lawful Community. They may even hire adventurers to investigate the source of the disease.
Evil, Neutral and Chaotic clerics will be hit or miss on this one. Urgathoa clerics may even refuse to remove the *glorious* disease for any price...
With metagaming allowed: They know that bed rest does nothing against disease damage to ability scores. They seek out a cleric and get it healed.
Until this I agreed with you... Now it's entirely reasonable to suppose that players character have already caught a disease while growing up and know that resting in bed do not help against disease... And of course everybody knows a Cleric can cure disease...
Assuming everything in a fantasy should work like our world is as bad as metagaming... ;)
In a world where rest don't help to cure disease people don't usually rest to cure disease... They know this won't help 'cause a lot of people before them as the experience of it and won't tell them to stay in bed, drink a lot of water, stay hot to avoid catching other disease since certain disease doesn't make you prone to catch other diseases... A disease that make you clumsy (DEX dmg) don't necessarily mean you will be prone to catch other diseases more easily (Doesn't dmg CON).
You have to describe the fluff from mechanic not adapt the mechanic from fluff or else you can't have easily playable rules ;)
In this world people don't necessarily have whit globule to defend against disease... It may be another unknown mechanic... And diseases are certainky different since most of them can spread through different races of humanoids/outsiders/animals/magical beasts etc. while in our world diseases rarely pass the species barrier...
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@Loengrin-The owner of the farmland will make much more than the farmhand working the land.
Not everyone plays in a high magic game.
Most people don't adventure because it's crazy and stupid. Adventurers rarely get to die of old age. Also, PCs are so significantly more powerful and wealthy than low level NPCs it isn't funny.
Nowhere on Golarion has entire legions of paladins, clerics, or wizards. They have legions of warriors led by NPCs that have a few PC class levels.
Check out this article by freelance developer Alexander Agunas regarding wealth in Pathfinder LINK
@Murdock I mean from a "What do the rules say on this subject" stance.
As a GM I want to know what the rules have to say about a player contracting a disease and deciding to try and rest and recover after they start showing symptoms. I've come to the conclusion (thanks to the assistance of people in this thread) that the rules are silent, and I'd probably give that PC a circumstance bonus of yet to be determined magnitude on their save.
As a player, I'd probably just find a cleric if the party didn't have one.
If anyone is truly interested THIS LINK was the original inspiration for this thread.
@Loengrin-The owner of the farmland will make much more than the farmhand working the land.
Not everyone plays in a high magic game.
Most people don't adventure because it's crazy and stupid. Adventurers rarely get to die of old age. Also, PCs are so significantly more powerful and wealthy than low level NPCs it isn't funny.
Nowhere on Golarion has entire legions of paladins, clerics, or wizards. They have legions of warriors led by NPCs that have a few PC class levels.
Check out this article by freelance developer Alexander Agunas regarding wealth in Pathfinder LINKIf anyone is truly interested THIS LINK was the original inspiration for this thread.
Mmmh... Not to criticize, I think playing Pathfinder in a low magic environment is feasible... But you have to modify a lot of rules, since the monsters at high level expect players to be a minimum equipped with magic... Pathfinder is not the best environment for playing low magic, dark, Grim'N'Gritty adventure...
Golarion is certainly not the right Campaign Setting for that... Midnight and especially Dark Sun is good, but they are more Grim'N'Gritty than low magic... ;)I personally prefer Warhammer 1st ed. for low magic... It's a game where you can play a group of beggar and have several and several sessions doing only beggar stuff if you want!!!
Sickness and most of Poison are not really a threat to Players... apart for the few first level... But it stays a great plot because even if they do not threaten Players it threatens the mass... You can ask the PC to deal with it... And usually a PC don't like to be forced to do nothing while his pal PCs go on adventure, removing him from the action...
Hence the rule for Disease... It can give you malus but do not remove you from the action, which is one of the thing players hate the most... being forced to stay in bed whilst the other players got all the action and forcing you to watch Youtube video on your smartphone while others laugh and enjoy themselves...
But don't underistimate disease because of that, a sick player going to "visit" a kobold tribe can considerably weaken the tribe by killing a lot of goblin commoner for example... ;)
Practically all the rules are created with this awesome context in mind: A rule should not remove all the fun to the gaming experience. Which is awesome but come with a default: some things cannot work like IRL 'cause IRL is not always funny...
Frankly what do you prefer: a disease rule that let you go with your group and enjoy the adventure albeit at the cost of some malus depending on the disease or a rule that is much more "IRL like" and force you to stay in town in a bed while the other players enjoy themselves on adventure?
I think you know what 99% of players will say about that... :p
Now the economy... Players usually don't care about the grand picture in a realm or a region, people are just like in a film for players, when they are not present they don't really exist... As long as they can buy their magic item they don't care how the merchant can afford to have an item this pricey and that buying it from him is sufficient to make great living for years without having to work... If a player sells a +1 shortsword to a merchant and buy him a +1 longsword the merchant will buy the +1 shortsword 1155GP and sell the longsword for 2135GP cashing in 980GP, enough to let the merchant live a wealthy life for almost 9 months...
Of course, PC never pay taxes... The merchant might... But players don't care... And it doesn’t impact them, so no need to rule that…
So, generally speaking rules for these kinds of things are not necessary... An adventure is like a movie or a computer RPG game, when they are not on-screen people don't really "exist"... When we come to town we go see the merchant sell our stuff, buy others, the only thing that matters is what is available and how much they sell it, how much money they have to buy our ransacked-on monster’s stuff...
So, they made rules for that in City Statblock you have the wealth of the town giving you the max cost of objects you can buy and how much you can sell... 'cause you know if you go in the 40 people hamlet and try to sell the +5 weapon you just looted you could before this... And some players can't relate to the poor smithy in the hamlet buying their costly loot... break immersion and all that...
So, rules for city GP limit came into play... and it was sufficient for most adventures...
All that was good until Kingmaker... Making an AP that gives you command of your own land and asking the players to take care of the Loyalty/Stability/Economy of their own realm asked for a global recast of all the Economy Rules... Now, in your capital town it's important to know a lot more things:
If you ever need a Pharasma spell at any moment you need Pharasma’s Cleric all the time… You need a Pharasma building for them to stay… Or to hire permanently a pharasma Cleric… This will cost you…
So, with Kingmaker came the “Kingdom Rules” and shortly after that “Ultimate Campain” added on these rules letting you have rules slightly better rules than the short ones in Kingmaker Campaign books and even let you command armies…
In a way, they are better but they still don’t focus on individual, but with these rules you can have a better grasp of the economy in Pathfinder in generals…
So, you should use these rules if you want a better grasp on how the economy works in general in Pathfinder… ;)
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Sickness and most of Poison are not really a threat to Players... apart for the few first level... But it stays a great plot because even if they do not threaten Players it threatens the mass... You can ask the PC to deal with it... And usually a PC don't like to be forced to do nothing while his pal PCs go on adventure, removing him from the action...
They are threats, but the GM needs to use them as such.
As for staying in bed during a session, that isn't something you need to do, but you can do it. The best solutions are either having the player assume a different character while that character is bed ridden, or in just advancing the time table until the PC is better (the other players have time to work on side projects). You don't need to force the player to roleplay being sick in bed for a session or multiple sessions, I agree that it would be unreasonable to expect this of a player.
Regarding poison, the issue at higher levels comes in when you are poisoned via rapid natural attacks. Unlike disease, poison stacks, making for a stronger DC and longer duration, the more times you are poisoned. This can be lethal, especially if the party's cleric is preoccupied (like by being attacked by something else).
Disease, on the otherhand, is usually not a big deal if taken seriously when acquired. I will note that spells, like Contagion, use their own DC for contracting the disease and ignore the onset time, Making them more similiar to poisons in use. They revert to their normal DC afterwards, but that initial DC can be fierce and less things are immune to disease as there are things with poison immunity/resistance.
Well, you should also stay well-hydrated and ensure you get the proper nutrition, though, of course, depending on the kind of sick, you might need to temporarily fast, or even get an IV... oh, you mean the in-game thing. Yeah, I think others mostly have that covered.
This is what DMs offering circumstance bonuses are for.
If you lack spellcraft, a non-trusted caster may take advantage of the situation and cast a different spell on you.
Does this happen in your game? That would be pretty lame of the GM, if it were just to screw with you.
If you lack spellcraft, a non-trusted caster may take advantage of the situation and cast a different spell on you.Does this happen in your game? That would be pretty lame of the GM, if it were just to screw with you.
I would first start with Bluff vs. Sense Motive or Spellcraft (whichever is the target's better skill) for the trick to see if they agree to have the spell cast on them.
Then if they fail that, they still get a save based on this FAQ and this other small survey.
From the FAQ for the CRB here:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9p1l
"Potions: If I drink a potion, do I automatically forgo my save against that potion?
No. Nothing in the potion rules says it changes whether or not you get a saving throw against the spell stored in the potion. Even if someone hands you a potion of poison and tells you it’s a potion of cure serious wounds, you still get a save."
I would say that the spell "switch" works the same.
A small survey of people agree they get a save anyway vs. the spell "switch."
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/29547/save-against-a-spell-thought- to-be-harmless
Then if they fail that, they still get a save based on this FAQ and this other small survey.
From the FAQ for the CRB here:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9p1l"Potions: If I drink a potion, do I automatically forgo my save against that potion?
No. Nothing in the potion rules says it changes whether or not you get a saving throw against the spell stored in the potion. Even if someone hands you a potion of poison and tells you it’s a potion of cure serious wounds, you still get a save."I would say that the spell "switch" works the same.
A small survey of people agree they get a save anyway vs. the spell "switch."
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/29547/save-against-a-spell-thought- to-be-harmless
What if someone mix a poison that target ability in a potion of cure light wound ? Do you get to make a save vs both effects ?
What if it's a harmmful spell that target ability mixed with cure light wounds ? Ot a potion of Charm Person and Cure kLight WOund ? :)A save for one and not for the other ? For both ? None ?
1) Mixing a potion and a poison requires a special feat.
2) Yes, you save separately. Poison first, then potion.
Ooooh !!! Thanks, I was not aware of Infused Potions... I can add this to some of myt prefered charcter concept... A pity that the sheer number of books do not allow me to take notice of all the rules existing :/
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If you lack spellcraft, a non-trusted caster may take advantage of the situation and cast a different spell on you.Does this happen in your game? That would be pretty lame of the GM, if it were just to screw with you.
More something players do to other players in a campaign that allows people to play evil characters (or practical jokers).
As for bluff and sense motive, if the players are doing it to eachother, it really isn't something the GM needs to manage (as long as they are still having fun). For NPCs, if the players find a cleric to cast cure disease on them, but don't bother to ID that it is an Urgathoa (pro disease deity) Cleric, kinda serves them right for that blunder. Sense motive would apply, though at this point, they've failed their knowledge religion to ID the cleric, their spellcraft to ID the spell, and now are rolling sense motive...Not really feeling like a jerk GM if they can't pass 3 different skill checks to see this coming.
Regarding willing targets, it's my understanding that you choose to be willing or not when the spell is cast. If you can't ID the spell, it is still your choice to be willing or not, but you don't get to observe the effects and then decide to save or not. Being unwilling does mean that some spells will fail, and others will have lesser effects. So if you are wrong, and the caster is actually casting a beneficial spell, you could waste their spell.
Potions were FAQed to work otherwise, so I'll follow that FAQ for potions, specifically.
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Choosing to fail a save and being "willing" are mechanically different yeah?
I don't think you can choose to fail a save. You could, however, sabotage your rolling with a number of abilities...
Willing targets don't get a save, but that isn't the same thing as failing a save (even if the effect is usually the same).
Spells noted as harmless, are just a collection of spells that normally (for PCs) cast on willing targets. Technically, the harmless aspect of a spell is subjective to the spell and the target, and is not related to the spell actually being listed as harmless or not.
Inflict Light Wounds could be a harmless spell if the target healed as undead. Cure Light Wounds would cease to be a harmless spell if used on a target that healed as undead. For simplicity, players/NPCs designate allies and they are considered willing for any harmless spells directed at them from these allies. For players, allies is typically the entire party.
Additionally, Spell Resistance may apply. This affects the creature regardless of being willing or not, though SR can be surpressed as a standard action. This means that being a willing target for cure light wounds may not be enough, with the spell still being wasted.
I don't think you can choose to fail a save. You could, however, sabotage your rolling with a number of abilities...
Willing targets don't get a save, but that isn't the same thing as failing a save (even if the effect is usually the same).
Spells noted as harmless, are just a collection of spells that normally (for PCs) cast on willing targets. Technically, the harmless aspect of a spell is subjective to the spell and the target, and is not related to the spell actually being listed as harmless or not.
Inflict Light Wounds could be a harmless spell if the target healed as undead. Cure Light Wounds would cease to be a harmless spell if used on a target that healed as undead. For simplicity, players/NPCs designate allies and they are considered willing for any harmless spells directed at them from these allies. For players, allies is typically the entire party.
Additionally, Spell Resistance may apply. This affects the creature regardless of being willing or not, though SR can be surpressed as a standard action. This means that being a willing target for cure light wounds may not be enough, with the spell still being wasted.
Yep, the definition of Harmless is quite clear :
(harmless): The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires.
If you are willing you don't get the saving throw at all, it's not that you fail it willingly, you don't have it at all...
If you reverse engine the things you've got :"Not Harmless : The spell is usually detrimential, harmful, but a targeted creature can choose to not attempt a saving throw if it desires."
And you're right fo SR :
The terms “object” and “harmless” mean the same thing for spell resistance as they do for saving throws. A creature with spell resistance must voluntarily lower the resistance (a standard action) in order to be affected by such spells without forcing the caster to make a caster level check.
So you have to take down your SR or else there's a caster check for your cure spell to function... ;)
Choosing to fail a save and being "willing" are mechanically different yeah?I don't think you can choose to fail a save.
You can. Core Rulebook, page 217.
You can. Core Rulebook, page 217.
Sorry but no you can't...
Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.
You can choose not to roll your saving throw, it's not the same as rolling it and choosing to fail it... ;)
It may seems a detail but it could be important for other things... :p
If "willing" means you don't get a save, then unconscious creatures never get saves, and this is patently untrue.
"Willing" is a targeting term. It means unconscious people can be teleported, not that they get no save against disintegration.
Nope, look at the Harmless entry : a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires.
And, in fact, you should read this as : you can only forgo your save if you are willing, not you have no save if you're not willing...By default you get a save... Now you can choose not to have a save...
Unless the spell is Harmless then by default you do not have a save but can choose to have one... :)
Clearer ? :)