Do / should Bladed Brush and Slashing Grace work together?


Advice

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I want to hear others opinions because a build that I have been making is heavy relying on it and im incredibly tired of rebuilding it over and over in the hopes of getting dex to damage on a weapon with more than 1d6 damage on a character that ISNT a rogue or a swashbuckler.

Do the Bladed Brush and Slashing Grace feats work together? Why or why not? The more opinions the better.


this really should be in the rules section since you're asking a rules question. The reason to put it there is you'll get more people commenting on it.

You already know that I say no it doesn't work.


The fact the feat has a second sentence at all indicates to me that yes, it is supposed to function with Slashing Grace. If all it did was let you use Weapon Finesse with glaives it would only need to be a single sentence and Paizo doesn't usually waste wordcount on nothing.


Blackwaltzomega wrote:
The fact the feat has a second sentence at all indicates to me that yes, it is supposed to function with Slashing Grace. If all it did was let you use Weapon Finesse with glaives it would only need to be a single sentence and Paizo doesn't usually waste wordcount on nothing.

That's fair enough but I've had a decent amount of arguing otherwise because of the word "kind" in the description of bladed brush.


Blackwaltzomega wrote:
Paizo doesn't usually waste wordcount on nothing.

They went through some Olympics levels of word gymnastics to make it as unclear as possible though... It would of taken LESS wordcount to say:

"You can use the Weapon Finesse feat with a glaive sized for you. When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon. This feat works with Slashing Grace and doesn't work with spellcombat, flurry or brawlers flurry.

As a move action, you can shorten your grip on the glaive, treating it as though it lacked the reach weapon property. You can adjust your grip to grant the weapon the reach property as a move action."

As a bonus, you'd actually be able to tell how it works...

PS: flagged to move this to the advice section. For some reason this was posted in 3rd party products.

Grand Lodge

Huh, second thread on this today. There's alot of controversy on how they interact and everyone seems to have a different opinion. If you really want to use it though, I've got some advice.

To quote myself from a previous thread:

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

I've got 2 builds for Bladed Brush that work regardless of how you interpret the rules.

3 level dip of Phalanx Fighter while wearing a buckler allows you to wield any polearm one-handed. Combine that with Bladed Brush and Slashing Grace. No more argument over whether your hand its considered occupied for slashing grace.

Or you can go 4 levels of Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler with Bladed Brush, which gets Dex to damage with any weapon it uses Swashbuckler's Finesse with.

Both are full BAB classes so you're not losing out too much by taking them on a martial character.


graystone wrote:
Blackwaltzomega wrote:
Paizo doesn't usually waste wordcount on nothing.

They went through some Olympics levels of word gymnastics to make it as unclear as possible though... It would of taken LESS wordcount to say:

"You can use the Weapon Finesse feat with a glaive sized for you. When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon. This feat works with Slashing Grace and doesn't work with spellcombat, flurry or brawlers flurry.

As a move action, you can shorten your grip on the glaive, treating it as though it lacked the reach weapon property. You can adjust your grip to grant the weapon the reach property as a move action."

As a bonus, you'd actually be able to tell how it works...

PS: flagged to move this to the advice section. For some reason this was posted in 3rd party products.

I was told to move it here actually. Also, so you have no idea if they work together?


Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Huh, second thread on this today. There's alot of controversy on how they interact and everyone seems to have a different opinion. If you really want to use it though, I've got some advice.

To quote myself from a previous thread:

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

I've got 2 builds for Bladed Brush that work regardless of how you interpret the rules.

3 level dip of Phalanx Fighter while wearing a buckler allows you to wield any polearm one-handed. Combine that with Bladed Brush and Slashing Grace. No more argument over whether your hand its considered occupied for slashing grace.

Or you can go 4 levels of Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler with Bladed Brush, which gets Dex to damage with any weapon it uses Swashbuckler's Finesse with.

Both are full BAB classes so you're not losing out too much by taking them on a martial character.

Sounds like you think they work together.

Grand Lodge

I don't have an opinion on the matter tbh. I just assume they don't because the wording is weird and complicated around how the glaive is wielded and what it counts as, and go about making builds with it that avoid that problem by either clearly making it wielded in one hand or getting dex to damage via another source.

Also, don't know why you would be told to move this to the third party forum. Everything we're discussing is made by Paizo


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The problem is that Slashing Grace (glaive) doesn't exist because a glaive isn't a one-handed weapon. Bladed Brush lets you treat a glaive as a one-handed weapon while you wield it, but it doesn't change the fundamental handedness of all glaives for purposes of meeting the feat prerequisite. So the question of whether they would work together if you could take both isn't meaningful.


Jurassic Pratt wrote:

I don't have an opinion on the matter tbh. I just assume they don't because the wording is weird and complicated around how the glaive is wielded and what it counts as, and go about making builds with it that avoid that problem by either clearly making it wielded in one hand or getting dex to damage via another source.

Also, don't know why you would be told to move this to the third party forum. Everything we're discussing is made by Paizo

Ugh i didnt realize it was the third party forum, I moved it to the rules forum. Didnt know it was third party, bluhhhh this site is a nightmare to navigate for me, its so convoluted, almost as bad as some of the writing for this game. Sorry, just dont want to move it again I guess.


(I have bounced around forums trying to find the proper place to post this, please I just want some straight forward opinions, god I wish the creators would just comment on this and help me out.)

I want to hear others opinions because a build that I have been making is heavy relying on it and im incredibly tired of rebuilding it over and over in the hopes of getting dex to damage on a weapon with more than 1d6 damage on a character that ISNT a rogue or a swashbuckler.

Do the Bladed Brush and Slashing Grace feats work together? Why or why not? The more opinions the better.


Bladed Brush wrote:
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a glaive sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike).
Slashing Grace wrote:
Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats...and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage.

So the requirements of Slashing Grace is (1:) that the weapon is a "light or one-handed slashing weapon."

Bladed Brush, when wielding a glove treats it as a "one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon."
The second preresiquite of Slashing Grace is: "When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed."
Bladed Brush: "and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand."

Both preresiquites are fulfilled so I see no reason why not. Note: you would have to wield the glaive 1-handed and only get 1x Str/Dex to damage to make it work.
Heck, it is almost like they were written with each other in mind however I cant see anything other then a Fighter having enough feats for it :/


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For the record, I wouldn't have suggested it if I didn't think it'd work. Bladed Brush, which you take first, lets you treat a glaive as a one-handed slashing weapon. Slashing Grace can be applied to a one-handed slashing weapon. Fine divisions of the words 'treat as' do not convince me.

Sovereign Court

It does not, officially, work.

Bladed Brush treats your off-hand "as if it were not making attacks". Slashing Grace requires that it is entirely empty.

Benefit: When you take this feat, choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike), and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size. You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.

Sovereign Court

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Slashing Grace requires the off-hand to be entirely empty. Bladed Brush only makes it "count as not attacking". So it doesn't work.

Scarab Sages

Okay, so you're trying to get dex to damage with a large die weapon on a class that isn't a rogue or a swashbuckler. What class are you looking for? Is a multiclass dip acceptable? Prestige class? Bladed Brush + slashing grace doesn't work by raw. So what are you really looking for? There are a few options that would work.


It's a little unclear and I think it should work (and I want it to work) but I think on balance Ascalaphus is right.

I am sad for my PFS games, but it will work in my home games.


If you want the DEX to damage why not take Bladed Brush and take Unchained Rogue.


Gisher wrote:
The problem is that Slashing Grace (glaive) doesn't exist because a glaive isn't a one-handed weapon. Bladed Brush lets you treat a glaive as a one-handed weapon while you wield it, but it doesn't change the fundamental handedness of all glaives for purposes of meeting the feat prerequisite. So the question of whether they would work together if you could take both isn't meaningful.

I am sorry, i can not access any feat databases from where i am. Does the text specify that you have to wield the glaive for it to count as one handed? I had remembered it as something more generic like, "you can treat a glaive as a one handed piercing weapon for purposes X, Y and Z."

That basically having Bladed Brush alters the weapon properties of Glaives for that character so that you could use it with things like Slashing Grace.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Slashing Grace requires the off-hand to be entirely empty. Bladed Brush only makes it "count as not attacking". So it doesn't work.

Just need to dip Juggler Bard, it offers free hands for everyone.

Real question is are these real free hands or metaphysical hands?


Ascalaphus wrote:
Slashing Grace requires the off-hand to be entirely empty. Bladed Brush only makes it "count as not attacking". So it doesn't work.

OK, that's convincing.

Looks like it's back to slashing grace, a long sword and effortless lace, VC.


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avr wrote:
For the record, I wouldn't have suggested it if I didn't think it'd work. Bladed Brush, which you take first, lets you treat a glaive as a one-handed slashing weapon. Slashing Grace can be applied to a one-handed slashing weapon. Fine divisions of the words 'treat as' do not convince me.

Bladed Brush

"When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon"

You're able to treat that one wielded glaive as a one handed weapon. You don't treat Glaives as one handed weapons. Thus weapon kind GLAIVE is still classified as a two handed weapon.


If for a home game, request GM house rule. For society play, they don't work for the reasons cited.


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I wonder how many hoops we can jump through in THIS thread to keep this feat combo, and Bladed Brush in general, from working. I've counted 4 already.


You didn't quote the whole sentence, and are misinterpreting the section you did quote so include exceptions it doesn't:

Bladed Brush wrote:
"You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a glaive sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike)."

Given the entirety of the text, a glaive wielded by someone with Bladed Brush should be able to be treated as a one-handed weapon for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of Slashing Grace as well, since that is the part of a feat that requires such a weapon. The text makes no exceptions regarding which parts of the feat it is treated as a one-handed piercing or slashing for. For example, it doesn't say "When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon... for all feats (except for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of those feats) and class abilities (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike) that require such a weapon. If it did than you would be correct Chess Pwn; but it doesn't, so you aren't.

The two feats are quite obviously intended to work together. The fact that the probably still don't has more to do with the fact that it isn't clear whether your off-hand is considered "free" if aren't considered to be making an attack with it. Though it was probably intended to, and the author just didn't properly check the actual text of Slashing Grace before writing Bladed Brush. The problem stems from Paizo's systemically inconsistent and often contradictory "conversational" writing style, and the communities' attempts to, and expectation that they can, parse it like actual game-logic; which the rules should be written to accommodate, but aren't.


I honestly do not believe that you need to get dexterity to damage for a Glaive or any other one handed weapon (other than the Rapier) in order to be effective. On a standard 20 point buy you can have 13 Strength, 16 Dex, and a 12 and a 14 in two other stat before racial bonuses. That gives you access to Power Attack, which solves all of your damage problems as the Glaive still gets +3 damage and then another +3 per 4 BAB. At level 4 you can put your extra point into Strength and that gives you a minimum of +6 to your damage rolls. Potentially +9 if you are a full BAB class. Compare that to a class with 18 Strength and 14 Dex, and they deal an extra 3 damage but suffer from -2 AC, Initiative, and reflex saving throws. Not a bad trade all things considered. Additionally, the Glaive can still be used with Precise Strike, so you come out just about even with a strength based character.

Honestly, Finesse and Power Attack is one of my favorite combinations for most of my 3/4ths BAB casters since it allows for them to have stronger defenses (as most of them cannot use heavy armor) while still keeping up on damage despite minimal investment into Strength. This allows them to better focus on Dexterity and their casting stat. It also works nicely for Vigilantes who take Lethal Grace, especially since any Vigilante can take Lethal Grace even the archetypes with spell-casting. Notably Lethal Grace's damage is multiplied on a critical hit, unlike Precise Strike, which makes it pretty powerful on high crit weapons.


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Slashing grace says, "Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon"
Bladed brush says, "When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon"
You don't need any more text because treating it as a one handed weapon includes treating it as one handed for ALL things, even more inclusive than what the feat actually does.

Glaive is not a kind of one handed weapon, even for bladed brush users. When you wield a glaive, it's one handed for you, but the other glaive over there is still considered a two handed weapon for you.

Thus GLAIVE kind of weapon is not a kind of one-handed weapon.

To me it's obvious that they aren't intended to work together since they don't, and we have no author input on intent to show otherwise.

EDIT:
Now if bladed brush said, "you can treat Glaives as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapons ..." Then it would work just fine. The feat turns all glaives into one handed weapons for you for stuff so it's a valid choice. But since it doesn't have that it doesn't work. Only 1 particular wielded glaive is treated as a one-handed weapon. Thus the GLAIVE as a kind of weapon are still two handed for you.

To me it's similar to the brawler enhancement and mithral medium armor. brawler says it can go on light armor. Mithral says the armor is treated as one stage lighter for all things but proficiency. Rule is that it's still a kind of medium armor and doesn't qualify.


Chess Pwn wrote:

Slashing grace says, "Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon"

Bladed brush says, "When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon"
You don't need any more text because treating it as a one handed weapon includes treating it as one handed for ALL things, even more inclusive than what the feat actually does.

Glaive is not a kind of one handed weapon, even for bladed brush users. When you wield a glaive, it's one handed for you, but the other glaive over there is still considered a two handed weapon for you.

Thus GLAIVE kind of weapon is not a kind of one-handed weapon.

To me it's obvious that they aren't intended to work together since they don't, and we have no author input on intent to show otherwise.

EDIT:
Now if bladed brush said, "you can treat Glaives as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapons ..." Then it would work just fine. The feat turns all glaives into one handed weapons for you for stuff so it's a valid choice. But since it doesn't have that it doesn't work. Only 1 particular wielded glaive is treated as a one-handed weapon. Thus the GLAIVE as a kind of weapon are still two handed for you.

To me it's similar to the brawler enhancement and mithral medium armor. brawler says it can go on light armor. Mithral says the armor is treated as one stage lighter for all things but proficiency. Rule is that it's still a kind of medium armor and doesn't qualify.

That does not make logical sense to me, if Bladed Brush lets you treat any Glaive wielded as a one handed weapon than any time you would check to see if Slashing Grace applies you would see your glaive that is (specifically for a character with Bladed Brush and only for the purposes of feats or class abilities that check) a one handed weapon. So it does become a valid choice. Certianly the wording makes me believe the two feats were meant to be compatible. However without Bladed Brush specifically stating your off hand counts as empty for the purposes of those feats and abilities than it still doesnt work. Based on the overall wording of the feat i believe it was supposed to work but does not as currently printed.

Basically if Bladed Brush was supposed to be exclusive to allowing Swashbuckler's Precise Strike it could have been better worded with less words used to say that. To Specify it applies to any feat that checks for one handed piercing or slashing weapons reads that it was meant to be open ended for working with options outside of Precise Strike.

In fact i am curious what that would mean if Slashing Grace isnt the feat infered than what other feat checks for One Handed and Slashing?

Clearly the author was thinking there was at least one feat that had those requirements even if the end result doesnt allow Slashing Grace due to an occupied off hand.


I think the arguments for and against it working from a rules perspective have been hashed out pretty well.

This is the advice forum, and the question also included 'should' which I think is basically asking advice on what a GM should do in a home game, as to how they interpret the rules and/or if a house rule should be made in this regard.

Personally, I think the intent was to allow feats like slashing grace to work with a Glaive, and while I think it is a fairly powerful choice (Dex to damage with a higher base damage weapon and two-handed power attack) it isn't powerful to the point of being broken.

I also think their is a desire to be able to make the fast deadly spear wielder, and while I would prefer this to be an option more generally (not tied to a single weapon and religion) I certainly understand why players would like it.

So those are reasons I would be inclined to allow it in my games.

My reasons against are mostly just a dislike of Dex-to-Damage period. I think Dex is a plenty strong as an attribute without that, and it just doesn't sit right with me. Give me Str-to-AC and maybe we can talk again. I say this as someone who built, and had a lot of fun with, a Dervish Dancing Magus (which although fun, inclined me to believe that it is unbalanced.)

When it is all said though, despite my dislikes Dex-to-Damage is a thing, and unless I was going to run a campaign with very extensive house rules, I wouldn't try and take it out and I would allow the slashing grace-bladed brush combo.


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Dave Justus wrote:

I think the arguments for and against it working from a rules perspective have been hashed out pretty well.

This is the advice forum, and the question also included 'should' which I think is basically asking advice on what a GM should do in a home game, as to how they interpret the rules and/or if a house rule should be made in this regard.

Personally, I think the intent was to allow feats like slashing grace to work with a Glaive, and while I think it is a fairly powerful choice (Dex to damage with a higher base damage weapon and two-handed power attack) it isn't powerful to the point of being broken.

I also think their is a desire to be able to make the fast deadly spear wielder, and while I would prefer this to be an option more generally (not tied to a single weapon and religion) I certainly understand why players would like it.

So those are reasons I would be inclined to allow it in my games.

My reasons against are mostly just a dislike of Dex-to-Damage period. I think Dex is a plenty strong as an attribute without that, and it just doesn't sit right with me. Give me Str-to-AC and maybe we can talk again. I say this as someone who built, and had a lot of fun with, a Dervish Dancing Magus (which although fun, inclined me to believe that it is unbalanced.)

When it is all said though, despite my dislikes Dex-to-Damage is a thing, and unless I was going to run a campaign with very extensive house rules, I wouldn't try and take it out and I would allow the slashing grace-bladed brush combo.

I know its off topic but really, i could get behind a feat that lets you add your strength to AC when using a shield under the idea that you can better deflect hits or stop your shield from being pushed off point.


Ugh, this set of feats has given me so much heart ache. I want them to work together so badly just so a character im building can be pure dex and have a cool/ unique weapon other than something boring and weak like a random light handed weapon (I dont know why all the light handed weapons just seem to all be so bad). While looking on another website im on it seems Ive gotten the very same answers, peoples saying "its unclear but I mean yea sure they should" And then flat no's because of the particular word "Kind" in the description of one of the feats.


As i have said in your other threads:

No, it does not work because you have no way of counting your offhand as empty.

Yes it should work as the author of Bladed Brush goes out of their way to say that glaives act like one handed piercing or slashing weapons for feats and class abilities. I can not find any feat other than Slashing grace that requires a one handed slashing weapon which to me speaks very clearly that this is a combination the author was thinking of and intended to work.


They do not work together, for the reasons stated above.

If you want to ask your GM for an exception to rule that they do work together, this is not an outlandish request. This is your best option, rather than trying to torture the rules text until it gives you what you want. I'm much more likely to be convinced by "this is explicitly supposed to work with precise strike, so it should be viable for swashbucklers who generally use feats to gain dex-to-damage" than by whatever interpretation of rules text.

Though if you wanted to be a finesse-glaive user with dex>str without dex to damage, a fighter (or something else that can get advanced weapon training) using Trained Grace or a vigilante using Lethal Grace are viable options in order to keep your damage up and are probably a better designed approaches for finesse fighters than your other Graces.


Torbyne wrote:
I know its off topic but really, i could get behind a feat that lets you add your strength to AC when using a shield under the idea that you can better deflect hits or stop your shield from being pushed off point.

I'd rather not see Barbarians who do not even take an AC penalty from raging, thank you very much.


ShroudedInLight wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
I know its off topic but really, i could get behind a feat that lets you add your strength to AC when using a shield under the idea that you can better deflect hits or stop your shield from being pushed off point.
I'd rather not see Barbarians who do not even take an AC penalty from raging, thank you very much.

Ah, but they wouldnt be two handing a weapon while using a shield without jumping through a lot more hoops so what you end up with is a barbarian with the AC of a regular sword and board fighter and the damage of a regular sword and board fighter but better abilities outside of that. i am ok with this. (i am assuming armor training, weapon training, gloves of dueling on the sword and board fighter vs lots of rage on the barbarian) plus the fighter can do the same trick for better AC. And in general super high AC means enemies avoid you after seeing how hard it is to hit you. But to each their own, i dont publish for Paizo so you are unlikely to see this feat any time soon.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

They do not work together, for the reasons stated above.

If you want to ask your GM for an exception to rule that they do work together, this is not an outlandish request. This is your best option, rather than trying to torture the rules text until it gives you what you want.

Though if you wanted to be a finesse-glaive user with dex>str without dex to damage, a fighter (or something else that can get advanced weapon training) using Trained Grace or a vigilante using Lethal Grace are viable options in order to keep your damage up and are probably a better designed approaches for finesse fighters than your other Graces.

Whats the point in using one to hit and one for damage? If you have a higher stat, trying to make it work for both seems like the only clear option and not a waste of your time and feats. I dont see a point in taking weapon finesse just for flavor and still doing damage with str. Why would you do that?


Imbicatus wrote:
Okay, so you're trying to get dex to damage with a large die weapon on a class that isn't a rogue or a swashbuckler. What class are you looking for? Is a multiclass dip acceptable? Prestige class? Bladed Brush + slashing grace doesn't work by raw. So what are you really looking for? There are a few options that would work.

Interesting weapon, larger damage die than a d6, usable for dex to damage. Im playing a slayer. I was willing to go at the most a 1 level dip into swashbuckler to help though I hate the idea of dipping in general because I dont have fun with multiclass characters, never have as they usually turn out like trash by the end and at that point im really missing their higher level abilities i traded for whatever from another class.


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Before the Advanced Class guide (i.e. over half of the time Pathfinder has existed) there were no options to add anything other than strength to damage when using weapon finesse before you could afford an agile weapon, and people still took weapon finesse. So "flavor" works just fine.

More to that point, the classic lightly armored swordfighters that inspired the swashbuckler and weapon finesse are not really people who don't rely on strength at all: Zorro, Inigo Montoya, Robin Hood, any of the Musketeers, Peter Blood, etc. were not Str 5-7 weaklings, they were Str 12-14 kind of guys. But what slashing grace does, is allow you to be a Str 5-7 weakling who is nonetheless a competent swordfighter, which chafes both from a fiction perspective and a balance perspective.

So personally I don't like slashing grace and its ilk. I think the more recent attempts to make finesse fighting viable (Lethal/Trained Grace) are better designed both from a balance and a fiction perspective. Moreover, they are actually, by RAW, compatible with Bladed Brush which the other Graces are not, which is actually the point relevant to the rules forum. What you want to do does not work, I gave you something that would; take it or leave it.


ViConstantine wrote:
Whats the point in using one to hit and one for damage? If you have a higher stat, trying to make it work for both seems like the only clear option and not a waste of your time and feats. I dont see a point in taking weapon finesse just for flavor and still doing damage with str. Why would you do that?

Mmmh... You want a good defense and to still be able to touch easily albeit at the cost of less damage ? :p

Or get defense and touch to apply some debuff or spell in your weapon ? ;)

There is some case where weapon finesse is interesting to have even without DEX to damage... When there is DEX to Damage there is no case where taking STR is more advantageous than taking DEX... Hence why Paizo don't want to give DEX to Damage easily... ;)


Loengrin wrote:
ViConstantine wrote:
Whats the point in using one to hit and one for damage? If you have a higher stat, trying to make it work for both seems like the only clear option and not a waste of your time and feats. I dont see a point in taking weapon finesse just for flavor and still doing damage with str. Why would you do that?

Mmmh... You want a good defense and to still be able to touch easily albeit at the cost of less damage ? :p

Or get defense and touch to apply some debuff or spell in your weapon ? ;)

There is some case where weapon finesse is interesting to have even without DEX to damage... When there is DEX to Damage there is no case where taking STR is more advantageous than taking DEX... Hence why Paizo don't want to give DEX to Damage easily... ;)

That isn't strictly true. Even for fighters, who can access Dex to damage the easiest, two handing with unhindering shield is better. Reason being is that at the end of the day, most games won't go to the levels where the levels of Dexterity that "break" the formula are possible.

At least in my tables- if there's a part of this argument that I'm missing, please tell me.


No it doesn't work. GLAIVES never become a kind of one handed weapon to qualify for being the chosen weapon.


Kaelan Ashenveil wrote:

That isn't strictly true. Even for fighters, who can access Dex to damage the easiest, two handing with unhindering shield is better. Reason being is that at the end of the day, most games won't go to the levels where the levels of Dexterity that "break" the formula are possible.

At least in my tables- if there's a part of this argument that I'm missing, please tell me.

Hu ? You can Two-hand with DEX as well with STR... But with DEX you still gain more defense... If you can completely go DEX why hesitate ? What's the benefit in staying with STR ? :)

And I'm a Magus fan and player, this guy can't two-hand but with weapon finesse alone I can have a better defense, a good touch and still deliver my spell through my weapon, of course I do slightly less damage than a full STR character... That's fair since I do less damage but got the defense... If I can do both Defense and Damage what's the point in using STR at all ? :)


Loengrin wrote:
Kaelan Ashenveil wrote:

That isn't strictly true. Even for fighters, who can access Dex to damage the easiest, two handing with unhindering shield is better. Reason being is that at the end of the day, most games won't go to the levels where the levels of Dexterity that "break" the formula are possible.

At least in my tables- if there's a part of this argument that I'm missing, please tell me.

Hu ? You can Two-hand with DEX as well with STR... But with DEX you still gain more defense... If you can completely go DEX why hesitate ? What's the benefit in staying with STR ? :)

And I'm a Magus fan and player, this guy can't two-hand but with weapon finesse alone I can have a better defense, a good touch and still deliver my spell through my weapon, of course I do slightly less damage than a full STR character... That's fair since I do less damage but got the defense... If I can do both Defense and Damage what's the point in using STR at all ? :)

Carrying capacity.

Not getting hosed completely by entangle effects.

Being able to make strength checks when obstacles in the dungeon call for them.

Being able to wear better armor.

Enormous feat advantages.

The capacity to use ANY weapon you find even if it is not an exact replica of the one you took weapon focus with.

These are the primary reasons I feel going STR when you can go full DEX is still a smart option.

Going with first-party only materials you're three feats in the hole just to get dexterity to damage unless you dervish dance. You're FOUR feats deep if you're trying to use Bladed Brush. You need bonus feats to have things come together in anything resembling a timely manner.

If you are a strength-based fighter, pick up a big sword, take power attack. Congratulations, champ, you are done. Everything else is just gravy, so you can go ahead and take things like Improved Initiative and Iron Will that speedy over there doesn't have room to take.


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Wow, how have I never seen that feat before. You don't really need dex to damage. Compare 22 dex(lvl 8 if you start with 16) and 14 Strength with power attack to 24 Dex starting with an 18 dex. You only loose 1 dex worth of attack/ac/init/ref and do more damage as I don't think with slashing grace you would get 1.5x dex to damage for 2 handing it but you would get 1.5x strength and qualify for power attack on a 2 hand weapon.


ViConstantine wrote:
Interesting weapon, larger damage die than a d6, usable for dex to damage.

Single class, you're looking at ranger or unchained rogue for those requirements. Slayer isn't going to do it.

Now, it'd be great if they ever fix bladed brush to actually work like it seems everyone thinks it should work, but currently I wouldn't want to make a character hinging on it as it working is going to depend on his using RAI instead of RAW. Now if you can get DM approval before hand then maybe...


graystone wrote:
ViConstantine wrote:
Interesting weapon, larger damage die than a d6, usable for dex to damage.

Single class, you're looking at ranger or unchained rogue for those requirements. Slayer isn't going to do it.

Now, it'd be great if they ever fix bladed brush to actually work like it seems everyone thinks it should work, but currently I wouldn't want to make a character hinging on it as it working is going to depend on his using RAI instead of RAW. Now if you can get DM approval before hand then maybe...

As it stands now taking a dip in the form of lvl 1 slayer, levels 2, 3 and 4 unchained rogue and then all back into slayer gives me the best possible outcome and the least amount of feats blasted.

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