Homebrew Campaign - Balance and Play-Ability Questions


Homebrew and House Rules


Ok, I’m building a campaign world where magic spell casting works a bit differently in some respects. I don’t want to upset balance too much or make a bunch of classes unplayable, but I want somethings to be noticeably different. There will be story based reasons for the differences and the PC’s will have a chance to ‘undo’ the differences if they so choose.

I would like some opinions on how you think they would work out, if it would be unbalancing, or unpleasant. I also have some that are only concepts that I haven’t figured out how to implement yet. Here are my initial thoughts.

A) All conjuration-summoning spells are at least 1 level higher, however they do last twice as long. So Summ Mon I is a 2nd level spell that last 2 rounds per caster level.
B) All calling or gate spells are at least 2 levels higher.
C) All dimension or time changing spells are 1 or 2 levels higher. Like haste, dimension door, rope trick, etc…
D) More of a sharp divide between divine and arcane mage. No deity of magic or magic domain exists. The gods refuse to grant spells to any arcane casters or even anyone who has arcane spell like abilities. This also eliminates the Mystic Theurge, but I can’t see any of my players trying it anyway.
E) All divination and abjuration spells are cast at +1 caster level.
F) I want Gozreh to be one of the most powerful of the major deities and at least middlin attractive to the players (which currently it is usually not). Any ideas on how I should beef up the domain list, granted domain powers, or domain spells? Any other suggestions?
G) The raise dead / resurrection line of spells are harder. I was thinking of a difficult caster level check with DC based on type of death and time since death. Failing the check still uses up the material components and raises the DC by 2 for any additional attempts.
H) I want to make reincarnation even easier, but not sure how. I could lower the spell’s level by 1 or remove the material component cost. What do you think?
I) I want some way of giving druids a more effective method of fighting undead. Focusing the power of life and nature to wreck the undead’s unnatural undead bodies. My first thought was an archtype that can channel positive energy only to harm undead. But I’m unsure what they should give up in order to get that. Also, I was kinda wanting it to be something more general for all druids.
J) I want some way to reduce the effectiveness of an eidolon a bit without nerfing it into uselessness. I was thinking about maybe making it more difficult to summon when killed and/or harder to heal and remove conditions from the eidolon. Any other ideas?
K) I would like channeling energy to be just a bit more powerful, without upsetting things too much. Any ideas how to go about that?


A-C) Ouch. Arcane casters will still be plenty playable but that hurts
F) Would just beef up the elemental domain spell lists. Any more than that would seriously hurt everyone else. Also one thing I like about clerics is that in almost every game system each deity is viable. There are definite bests but every deity remains a solid option even when there is a clear most powerful god(IE: Rovaug, Io, Nethys, Odin).
G) The difficulty in revival from the Diabolist PRC is worth looking at. Even removing revival doesn't hurt a campaign so long as your clear about this up front
H) Lower the level if anything. Reducing cost just leads to repeated suicide
I) Please don't. This is a cleric niche
J) Limit the number of times it can be summoned per day. Also maybe reduce its healing between summons
K) Add variant channeling effects automatically without reducing healing


Dastis wrote:

A-C) Ouch. Arcane casters will still be plenty playable but that hurts

...

This one is intended to hurt a bit. I may want to give htem something more than just F) though.

Dastis wrote:

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H) Lower the level if anything. Reducing cost just leads to repeated suicide
...

Good point.

Dastis wrote:

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I) Please don't. This is a cleric niche
...

My issues are two fold. I have a war between druids and vampires. I need some way for them to compete. I don't need them to be as good as clerics, but they need something effective they can do to them.

Also my players 'hate' clerics. The only play one if they feel they must in order to fight undead. Then they are unhappy with the character throughout the whole campaign because they felt 'forced' to play a cleric.
You have any suggestions on how to address these?

Dastis wrote:

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J) Limit the number of times it can be summoned per day. Also maybe reduce its healing between summons
...

That works.

Dastis wrote:

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K) Add variant channeling effects automatically without reducing healing

I really like this idea.

Liberty's Edge

Er, there are lots of ways to fight undead without being a cleric.
Necromancer wizard, life oracle, or druid as mentioned (wall of fire, magic stone, sunbeam, sunburst, regular combat options, holy water...)

Sovereign Court

More powerful druids/nature magic, you might want to take inspiration from the Elder druids of the Shannara chronicles.

If you have it, dragon magazine #286 talks of the Elder Druid, this might be a good inspiration.

Also in general, when it comes to some of the house rules and flavor proposed:

-Resurrection/raise dead in general, heh it can be quite be hit or miss, increasing DC of spells using won't change much...unless your goal at the end of the day it is to make so difficult and impractical that someone can't be raised, resurrected, then no half-measures, just take it out.

If you still want PCs to be raised...just leave it alone or a more elegant solution: Maybe the gods/spirits/cosmic forces of your setting simply put a limit on the spell, a person can only be resurrected once ever, if you are afraid of PCs coming back to life repeatedly.

Making resurrection/raise dead too hard in general create the revolving door problem...where people keep making new characters and usually end up not caring.


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In third edition D&D channeling wasn't directed to heal or harm. If you released a wave of positive energy you harmed undead and healed the living at the same time.


blashimov wrote:

Er, there are lots of ways to fight undead without being a cleric.

Necromancer wizard, life oracle, or druid as mentioned (wall of fire, magic stone, sunbeam, sunburst, regular combat options, holy water...)

As blashimov says, there are tons of ways to kill undead. Clerics should be the best at it, at least amoung full casters. Alright done harping this point

Other classes that are extra good against undead
Paladin
Ranger
Warpriest
Wizard

A better solution might be to ask your players why they "hate" clerics. I have only ever seldom found that educated players actually do. Once your clear out some common misconceptions you could find them more open minded

As for limited/banning Resurrection. I have played for the last 3-4 years without them at the table. So long as I am balancing encounters properly(still apologizing about that one surprise round), it makes players end up valuing their characters more not less. They have tried using better teamwork, tactics, and are generally more supportive of one another. The revolving door has only occurred for me when a player was actually unhappy with the characters they made. I do still leave breath of life open and drop a few scrolls as crit happens


Dastis wrote:


A better solution might be to ask your players why they "hate" clerics. I have only ever seldom found that educated players actually do. Once your clear out some common misconceptions you could find them more open minded.

In my experience clerics are disdained for two major reasons:

1. Lack of customize-able class abilities & archetypes. If you're the type of player who likes to conceptualize a build and see it come together as you level clerics are about the least interesting thing out there.

2. The perception that playing a cleric means you're a healbot, either by the player or the party.


I think, for a couple of them, the feelings for clerics are left over from previous versions of DnD when they weren't that good, but almost necessary to have along.
The others will mention things like...
They don't get new abilities (domain powers) very often (compare to oracles, warpriests, or inquisitors). A lot of the spells seem less exciting and less powerful than arcane spells.
Also, i think they've only seen/experienced some rather poorly built and badly run clerics.

As for raising from the dead, I don't think my group would be happy with getting rid of it completely. Maybe I will just drop that concept.

Sovereign Court

To be quite honest...I love clerics. My main character was a cleric for over a decade, the campaign just ended with my cleric level 18/Hierophant 1. Cleric strength mostly rely on being the a swiss army knife, being able to prepare spells during the day for 15 min is a bargain.

While I do love the class, Paizo did a great jobs in making all the other divine classes and nowadays, if I had a chance to start over...I would probably play one of the other divine classes:

Oracles can become anything and are very flavorful. Unlike cleric, they specialize depending on their mystery and sometime their curses can even give them an advantage, but it is fine, usually most people specialize.

Warpriest are the new battle clerics, if you want to play a battle cleric, just play a warpriest, it will save you a lot of hassles.

Inquisitors are the rogue and ranged clerics, bringing in plenty of skills.

Shaman are flexible with their spirits and usually focus on debuffing.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

If you want to boost druids, especially when battling vampires, alter Wild Empathy. Make it work with plant creatures, and act as a way to boost wooden weapons, especially wooden piercing weapons, like stakes. Maybe just add druid level to wooden piercing weapons. Maybe a way to put down a threshold the vampires cannot cross (almost typed campfires there!). Maybe a way to boost allies' attacks against undead?


Gruingar de'Morcaine wrote:

G) The raise dead / resurrection line of spells are harder. I was thinking of a difficult caster level check with DC based on type of death and time since death. Failing the check still uses up the material components and raises the DC by 2 for any additional attempts.

H) I want to make reincarnation even easier, but not sure how. I could lower the spell’s level by 1 or remove the material component cost. What do you think?

Personally I think both lines are pretty balanced as they are. One of my players lost her PC lately, and had to think hard whether she should go for Raise Dead or Reincarnate. So it was an interesting choice like it should be.

Depending on player type, a change like in G) can be quite upsetting. I like to have everything under control, and totally random rolling whether my PC lives again (with paying precious 5k each time!) feels like a trap option to me. So I'd completely avoid this option and go for Reincarnate whether it gets a boost or not. Heck, I'd consider a ban on Raise Dead more honest. But other players might be more openminded about it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Speaking of player types, have you asked your players what they want to do? Making a whole bunch of rules changes for summoners is a waste of time if none of your players are ever going to play a summoner. If none like clerics, don't worry about changing clerics. If they like reincarnate, and never use raise dead, focus on reincarnation stuff and don't sweat the resurrection stuff.

No need to re-invent the wheel if they're just going to go sleigh riding. ;-)


SmiloDan wrote:
If you want to boost druids, especially when battling vampires, alter Wild Empathy. Make it work with plant creatures, and act as a way to boost wooden weapons, especially wooden piercing weapons, like stakes. Maybe just add druid level to wooden piercing weapons. Maybe a way to put down a threshold the vampires cannot cross (almost typed campfires there!). Maybe a way to boost allies' attacks against undead?

Love these ideas! Thanks I will work up something along these lines.

SmiloDan wrote:

Speaking of player types, have you asked your players what they want to do? Making a whole bunch of rules changes for summoners is a waste of time if none of your players are ever going to play a summoner. If none like clerics, don't worry about changing clerics. If they like reincarnate, and never use raise dead, focus on reincarnation stuff and don't sweat the resurrection stuff.

No need to re-invent the wheel if they're just going to go sleigh riding. ;-)

Yes and no.

Some of these ideas are because of things the group has said during the playing of the current and previous campaigns.
Raise dead too easy to ever consider reincarnate except for the 1 or 2 levels where the raise is difficult to afford. so it almost never happens even though it sounds like an interesting option. Might play a cleric if they were just a bit more interesting. Don't want to be a healbot. One guy has been talking about all the different ways to summon creatures to do the fighting for the group.
Etc...

Some are due to the world altering story line I've got planned. But even there, I will discuss with the group and if they are really against some of them, they can be altered some or put back to standard. I don't really need all of them, just enough to make the magical changes noticeable.

And lastly, I don't really know if I will be with the same group when the campaign finishes. I'm currently job hunting, so may be moving.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Thanks!


Gruingar de'Morcaine wrote:
Dastis wrote:

A-C) Ouch. Arcane casters will still be plenty playable but that hurts

...
This one is intended to hurt a bit. I may want to give htem something more than just F) though.

I'd like to point out that (F) doesn't give arcane casters anything at all; it's the point about boosting Gozreh. Are you simply reducing arcane abilities, or is there a pro quo?

Are Necromancy spells affected in this world?

And speaking of boosting Gozreh, his domains are Air, Animal, Plant, Water, & Weather. I don't know why Gozreh gets no love, since I'd think Air or Water would be fine for some battle clerics. In this case, you could easily strengthen Plant by awarding bonus damage against undead. (Wooden spikes, and all.) Now all you have to do is encourage druids to take a domain instead of an animal companion...


bitter lily wrote:
Gruingar de'Morcaine wrote:
Dastis wrote:

A-C) Ouch. Arcane casters will still be plenty playable but that hurts

...
This one is intended to hurt a bit. I may want to give htem something more than just F) though.
I'd like to point out that (F) doesn't give arcane casters anything at all; it's the point about boosting Gozreh. Are you simply reducing arcane abilities, or is there a pro quo? ...

Sorry, that was supposed to be E. The bonus to abjuration and divination spells.

bitter lily wrote:

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Are Necromancy spells affected in this world?
...

Had not decided yet, but maybe.

bitter lily wrote:

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And speaking of boosting Gozreh, his domains are Air, Animal, Plant, Water, & Weather. I don't know why Gozreh gets no love, since I'd think Air or Water would be fine for some battle clerics. In this case, you could easily strengthen Plant by awarding bonus damage against undead. (Wooden spikes, and all.) Now all you have to do is encourage druids to take a domain instead of an animal companion...


I don't think of div/abju spells as the province of arcane casting.


bitter lily wrote:
I don't think of div/abju spells as the province of arcane casting.

I wasn't really thinking of any of A, B, C, and E as just arcane. Just weakening some types of spells and strengthening other types.


So you're nerfing some arcane classes altogether -- summoners (A) plus bards & witches (D), or at least I assume the latter two don't get otherwise divine spells anymore. You're limiting options for the standard arcane classes -- wizards & sorcerers (A). You're benefiting schools that don't apply as much to the above. (Bards do get divination, I admit.)

What about Illusion? Evocation? Transmutation?


Sorry, probably didn't state D) clearly enough.
If it is on both an arcane caster's list and on a divine caster's list. It is that for that type of caster and will detect as such.

So a bard can still cast an arcane spell such as Eagles Splendor or Cure Light Wounds (if he has learned it). It is an arcane spell since it is not granted by a deity.

But if a cleric, druid, warpriest, inquisitor, ranger, or paladin decides to take Eldritch Heritage to get some sorcerer powers or multi-classes into arcanist, his deity will no longer grant him spells.

I feel that summoners actually should get somewhat of a nerf. I think they are just a little too powerful and use up too much of the table time if the player isn't exceptionally well organized. However, I don't think summoners deserve as much of a nerf as I'm giving them for this campaign. Both A) and B) are directly related to the main campaign plot and have a chance to be set back to standard by the players.

Most (I agree not all) of the summoners I've seen rarely use summoning spells. The rely almost exclusively on the eidolon.
Most of the summoning I've seen has been done by clerics, druids, and sorcerers. YMMV

Illusion, evocation, and transmutation are not a part of the storyline so I had not intended to changer them at all.

Necromancers are intended to be a bit rare, but there is one aggressive nation that is basically run by my version of vampires. It is at war with a loose coalition of druids. I had not decided if necromancy needs some changes to it or not. On the whole, I am leaning toward no changes.


You asked whether your changes would be unpleasant or unbalancing.

You're now admitting that you want to unbalance things away from summoning, and that doesn't necessarily unbalance whole classes. (I'm of two minds about the summoner, but you're probably right that it's not a class for summoning things. Pity.) People who like to consume table time with their summoned critters will certainly find your change unpleasant. But there's lots else to do.

I'm personally all in favor of nerfing Eldritch Heritage!

Still, why boost Div/Abju? Are the gods are stronger here? That might have effects on other schools like Illusion or Transmutation. Oh, and what schools do druids focus on the most?


I wanted to know if it seemed unbalanced from the point of view of specific classes (other than the obvious nerf of the summoner). Would it no longer be possible to effectively play a druid since summon natures ally will be harder? Would a divination focused wizard be too powerful and overwhelm the rest of the group?

The boost to abjuration and divination was basically because I didn't want to be just taking away from the players. Plus it seemed (to me) to be fairly diametric to summoning/calling spells. I could give the boost somewhere else, that was just what came to me initially.

Yes, many druids seem to rely pretty heavily on Summon Natures Ally spells. But the few times I've seen it come up, it usually seemed startlingly ineffective vs. high powered undead like vampires and their ilk. Put together, that is 2 reasons I wanted them to have an at least reasonable ability to use in the war with the vampires.
I really like the idea of the plant creatures counting as wooden stakes though. That is a really cool idea.


OK, there's some kind of boundary on this plane that's stronger than in the usual D&D setting. Summonings are harder...

I don't see any kind of relationship with divination there, personally. Although I suppose that the strong boundary is a form of abjuration effect... What about transmutation? Could that reasonably be strengthened alongside "thicker" external boundaries?

Re: Gozreh, glad to have helped!


Been thinking about this some more. Since a lot of you seemed to not like the mentioned spells being higher level, what about making them more difficult?
Like a hard concentration or caster level check to cast it and/or some magical feed-back that gives the caster some raw magical damage?
Or it uses up to slots instead of higher level spell slots?

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