How does Superior Summoning interact with Abyssal Sorcerers?


Rules Questions


Feats wrote:

Superior Summoning

Prerequisites: Augment Summoning, caster level 3rd.

Benefit: Each time you cast a summoning spell that conjures more than one creature, add one to the total number of creatures summoned.

Abyssal Sorcerer wrote:
Added Summonings (Su): At 15th level, whenever you summon a creature with the demon subtype or the fiendish template using a summon monster spell, you summon one additional creature of the same kind.

Does this mean that an Abyssal Sorcerer with Added Summonings would always summon 3 demons/fiendish creatures rather than one?

Or would Superior Summoning only work when the spell was intended to summon more than 1 creature before Added Summonings was applied?


From the wording, the strict reading of the Added summoning ability doesn't modify the spell itself, rather it adds an effect (an additional creature) as a rider. Due to that, Superior summoning won't apply. Basically, the summon spell gets a creature and the added summoning ability gets a creature rather than changing the spell itself to get two creatures.

Parsing language this closely can be problematic in a game system though, since it is written to be enjoyable and not a legal contract, so I could very well see the intent being otherwise and a game master ruling either way.


In this case I'll do what I want as I am the GM and I am considering the feat for a NPC, so I don't have to ask for permission xD

What you say makes sense but as the wording is a bit confusing I wanted to ask.

The Exchange

there are a lot of posters that think it will work together, so 3. i always thought maybe no, but think i could be wrong. with robes, kicks off at 11.


The rules interaction here is sufficiently vague that a GM could rule either way. I'd apply the effects in the order that's most beneficial to the user, so it would allow you to summon 3 creatures. It's an ability that's only coming online at the 15th level, so I'm not particularly worried about it balance-wise.


Dave Justus wrote:

From the wording, the strict reading of the Added summoning ability doesn't modify the spell itself, rather it adds an effect (an additional creature) as a rider. Due to that, Superior summoning won't apply. Basically, the summon spell gets a creature and the added summoning ability gets a creature rather than changing the spell itself to get two creatures.

Parsing language this closely can be problematic in a game system though, since it is written to be enjoyable and not a legal contract, so I could very well see the intent being otherwise and a game master ruling either way.

You kind of glossed over the important part though. How does the extra creature get summoned? It's certainly not another summon spell that occurs, nor the activation of an additional SLA or anything. The only magic that is occurring is the original summoning spell, so how is it not the case that the summoning spell is not summoning multiple creatures?


_Ozy_ wrote:
You kind of glossed over the important part though. How does the extra creature get summoned?

I didn't actually, but I will rephrase.

The extra creature is summoned by the Added Summoning supernatural ability. The added summoning supernatural ability is triggered by a summon spell.


Dave Justus wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
You kind of glossed over the important part though. How does the extra creature get summoned?

I didn't actually, but I will rephrase.

The extra creature is summoned by the Added Summoning supernatural ability. The added summoning supernatural ability is triggered by a summon spell.

As a free action? Swift action? Where does it say?

If I had a supernatural ability that added +1 damage to each dice of a fireball, are my fireballs doing that extra damage, or are they doing normal damage and my SU is doing the rest?


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I think if the summoning spell is dispelled that the extra creature goes away with the rest, which would imply that Added Summoning does modify the summon spell rather than being its own summons.


_Ozy_ wrote:

As a free action? Swift action? Where does it say?

Not an action. It just happens when conditions are met, like any other abilities.

_Ozy_ wrote:


If I had a supernatural ability that added +1 damage to each dice of a fireball, are my fireballs doing that extra damage, or are they doing normal damage and my SU is doing the rest?

Obviously, that ability would be explicitly modifying the spell.

Contrast: Burning Spells (su): Whenever you cast a fire spell, add one point of damage per damage die of the spell.

With: Spell Flame (su): Whenever you cast a fire spell, you do one point of fire damage per damage die of the spell to the target(s) of the spell.

Functionally, quite similar, but one changes a spells (adds damage to it) the other is doing the damage directly on its own. The added summoning is worded like the latter.

That is how you would parse the language if you want to read it as strictly as possible. As I noted, I believe that is overly strict reading for type of thing and that the intent is quite possibly otherwise, and I would consider either interpretation made by a GM to be a valid one. Personally, I would probably go with letting the ability give you three creatures on your best summons, but if after playing it felt too powerful I wouldn't be against walking that interpretation back either. 15 and above is a hard area to predict how things will go in practice, and summoning is already pretty powerful, so I am not sure what would happen if actually used in a game.


Well... I guess after reading this discussion I'll be giving the NPC the feat as soon as he has enough lvl and allowing him to summon 3 creatures, just to make the test inside a real game to see how it works balance wise.

I am GMing for just one player and he is a trusted one, so I can trust him to allow me to do some playtesting and change it if it proves to be unbalancing.

That's nothing I would do on a regular game but in this case I can do it.

My guessing is that it can be powerful, but I'm not sure that it will be more powerful than other high level options so... let's see how it works. I'll share my conclussions.


Dave Justus wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

As a free action? Swift action? Where does it say?

Not an action. It just happens when conditions are met, like any other abilities.

I'm not aware of any other abilities that summons monsters without using an action of some sort, but ok.

What's the duration of that new summoned monster? What's the spell level of the effect?


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Kileanna wrote:
I am GMing for just one player and he is a trusted one, so I can trust him to allow me to do some playtesting and change it if it proves to be unbalancing.

I feel deeply honored!

_Ozy_ wrote:
What's the duration of that new summoned monster? What's the spell level of the effect?

You are right. I also think that it modifies the original spell. If not, it would create a bunch of complications, just like the ones you posted. Let's not to that can of worms.


Don't feel honored. You are my crash dummy! <3


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Kileanna wrote:
Don't feel honored. You are my crash dummy! <3

I forgive you because you are naked.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
I think if the summoning spell is dispelled that the extra creature goes away with the rest, which would imply that Added Summoning does modify the summon spell rather than being its own summons.

An implication of the opposite thinking is that if Added Summoning is a (Su), then the additional creature cannot be dispelled, as it is a supernatural effect, not a (Sp).


Quintain wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
I think if the summoning spell is dispelled that the extra creature goes away with the rest, which would imply that Added Summoning does modify the summon spell rather than being its own summons.
An implication of the opposite thinking is that if Added Summoning is a (Su), then the additional creature cannot be dispelled, as it is a supernatural effect, not a (Sp).

Yup, that was my next thought. ;)

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