Why do certain spells still exist?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Yeah, there are some very problematic spells that would probably improve the game if removed. You got a number of them.

Basically, you break the game in a few related ways with abilities:
1] You can do something in down time that creates a tangible, significant advantage in future combats [Contingency, Item Crafting, Planar Binding, Simulacrum]
2] You bypass costs that were designed to trade off a fixed resource for increased power [Blood Money, Planar Binding/Simulacra Efreeti]
3] You completely invalidate entire strategies by rendering them unable to affect you in any meaningful way, usually regardless of how strong your opponent is. [Emergency Force Sphere, Astral Projection, Overland Flight, Swift Action Teleport, Forewarned, Antimagic Field, Freedom of Movement]
4] You break action economy by getting many general purpose actions each turn or by adding additional combatants. [Time Stop, Leadership, Simulacrum, Summoning Spells]
5] Your ability isn't too strong, but is too flexible; it does whatever you need it to do in any given circumstance, so you always have an appropriate answer for everything [Summoning, Wish]
6] You attack something that many or most opponents have no meaningful way they could resist it. [Wave of Exhaustion]

Some things are way more egregious than others though. Especially don't let anything in category 2 combine with things in category 1, or you end up with an exponentially growing number of snow-clones astral projecting in from an exponentially growing number of nested demi-planes or other such craziness.


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I think I should just bugger out of this thread while I still feel like a gained something poistive out of it.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Judas
I don't need your blood money

Caiaphas
Oh, that doesn't matter
Our expenses are good

Judas
I don't want your blood money

Annas
But you might as well take it
We think that you should


Snowlilly wrote:
Some =/= all.

Well, you didn't specify which of the spells you thought was so fundamentally integral to the nature of the game that having it changed or removed would be less significant than playing a wholly different game, so I just picked one.

I stand by my assertion that your claim is absurd and wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that a party that does not utilize these spells somehow makes the game fundamentally unrecognizable. To suggest as much is just plain silly.

Quote:
Except, perhaps, in the black & white universe certain people choose to live in.

Black and white like... asserting that Pathfinder stops being pathfinder if you can't teleport?

Sovereign Court

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Blackwaltzomega wrote:


Hell, even Teleport's kind of a pain in the neck because they basically made long-distance travel a joke at higher levels. So now high-level adventures either need to account for a journey of a thousand miles being basically meaningless to a high-level party or come up with another excuse why you just can't teleport here, OK?

Then you enforce the % chance of mis-teleport.

even to a location they are very familiar with, they have a 3% chance of missing their target.
And teleporting across a battlefield is at best a "seen Casually" if not "viewed once"
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/teleport/


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icehawk333 wrote:

While the caster/martial discrepancy is well known, some preticular offenders come up time and time and time again, to the point where I'm baffled nothing has been done.

[assorted spell complaints]

If all of this was intended, then frankly, every enemy wizard should be abusing these spells-
After all, with a high INT and spellcraft, they would certianly know what they are, and what they can do.
Basically every wizard above 7th level should have emergency force sphere prepared....

First, check out ArchivesOfNethys. It is better than d20pfsrd for accurate reproduction of spells and such. AoN includes the fluff, and also the various restrictions like racial, or AP specific limits. It also is better for determining if something is core, AP, splat, or other. The search and cross linking is not as good, so I use the PRD, AoN, and the SRD for different stuff. [Idea: SRD, Detailed text: AoN, and Legality: PRD]

As to the spells....

Clone - I have never sen this used by a PC, and rarely on NPCs. I don't see any of my characters using this.

Simulacrum - In my S&S game, I almost got to use this. Sigh. This spell is GM intensive due to the 1/2 HD issue. As for overpowered things, an easy GM fiat is only duplicate what you have encountered. Or you could add the material component back in that PF dropped. This spell takes 12 hours to cast, or a round if you use wish. If you take hours, then it does not help in combat. If you take the round, then it costs you a lot for poor return relative to what wish could do. Where it is broken is in action economy with extra minions. But even there, it is not as broken as the animate dead spells. You can have undead hoards at lower levels, that can break the action economy. Leadership also allows hoards as well.

Blood money - already covered. Unique spell you cannot get without GM approval.

Emergency force sphere - Never encountered this one yet. Don't have an opinion yet.

Teleports - This can begin or end an encounter. When used to end it, you leave behind enemies that can prepare for the next time. The GM should so prepare the enemy for that next time. This can also shortcut travel. At higher levels, travel as getting from point A to B should no longer be a meaningful slowdown to the adventure. Unless you are exploring territory, skipping the boring parts of travel is the norm for high level play.

/cevah

Sovereign Court

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Many times when I see someone complaining about how overpowered a spell is, when you dig deeper you find that the limitations are not being enforced.
Someone on these boards, once complained about Detect Magic being too powerful. Turns out the GM was not enforcing the 3 round rule.
Someone once complained that flight, and overland flight was overpowered, and making it hard to come up with encounters. That time the Gm was thinking to linearly and not expanding his encounters beyond "You are ambushed in the forest."
And some of these spells the OP was complaining about you do not see until 15th level or above. When you should be able to cast earth shaking spells that have lasting effects.


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Tim Statler wrote:
Someone on these boards, once complained about Detect Magic being too powerful. Turns out the GM was not enforcing the 3 round rule.

If it's the same one, that GM was also abusing his players by putting magical traps like fireball traps and explosive runes literally everywhere. The players were relying on detect magic just to survive. That isn't a perfect example since the DM was actively looking for methods to f$+$ up his players.

Then he started adding lead sheets over the traps. :U

Honestly, the caster/martial disparity hits earliest when flight becomes fundamental for combat functionality. It's all on casters until they can purchase easy flight methods. Or, so I've noticed.


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Tim Statler wrote:
Blackwaltzomega wrote:


Hell, even Teleport's kind of a pain in the neck because they basically made long-distance travel a joke at higher levels. So now high-level adventures either need to account for a journey of a thousand miles being basically meaningless to a high-level party or come up with another excuse why you just can't teleport here, OK?

Then you enforce the % chance of mis-teleport.

even to a location they are very familiar with, they have a 3% chance of missing their target.
And teleporting across a battlefield is at best a "seen Casually" if not "viewed once"
[html]http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/teleport/[/html]

I have always enforced the mishap rules. They never come up because if the PCs are extremely careless with teleports they still have a 75% chance it'll go perfectly and the odds of the mishap seriously inconveniencing the party are very, very small. "Seen Casually" makes the chances of your teleport going seriously wrong negligible, and since the power to move a thousand miles in six seconds kind of takes the urgency out of a number of travel arrangements it's highly unlikely it's going to seriously inconvenience the players and it's certainly not something you can ever plan around.

So if you don't want the players teleporting somewhere, no, you have to put up a plotwall that says "no, you can't at all."


My Sorcerer screwed up a teleport more than once I think in the same session??? I don't remember one hundred percent but we took damage and we're way off course. Then I teleported again.


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What is or is not a problem will always vary by table. Paizo tends to leave this in the hands of the GM and/or table. They can break a game, but it is not accurate to say that they will break a game. Even martials can break a game if the player knows the game a lot better than the GM or decides to make something more powerful than what the table is used to.


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The major thing that martials do is do overwhelming amounts of damage or have dedicated their build to do one thing exceptionally well. One-trick ponies are most common among martials who do something other than exuberant amounts of damage.

AM BARBARIAN is a fairly strong example of a build designed explicitly to deal damage with almost not counter as a result of spell sunder shattering most effects that would prevent barbarian from getting to their target. All through a charge and full attack, mind you. They are also crown champions of the DPS Olympics, but that's just a coincidence. If AM BARBARIAN couldn't perform in a hypothetical scenario, nobody could.

If they can't do their one trick, they don't do anything. Period. Spellcasters have so many more options, a few options taken from them in order to maintain game balance/campaign structure (in the case of teleport) is probably not that big an ask. (except blasters, because see the first paragraph but replace all instances of 'martial' with 'blaster'.)


Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:

The major thing that martials do is do overwhelming amounts of damage or have dedicated their build to do one thing exceptionally well. One-trick ponies are most common among martials who do something other than exuberant amounts of damage.

AM BARBARIAN is a fairly strong example of a build designed explicitly to deal damage with almost not counter as a result of spell sunder shattering most effects that would prevent barbarian from getting to their target. All through a charge and full attack, mind you. They are also crown champions of the DPS Olympics, but that's just a coincidence. If AM BARBARIAN couldn't perform in a hypothetical scenario, nobody could.

If they can't do their one trick, they don't do anything. Period. Spellcasters have so many more options, a few options taken from them in order to maintain game balance/campaign structure (in the case of teleport) is probably not that big an ask. (except blasters, because see the first paragraph but replace all instances of 'martial' with 'blaster'.)

I think that mostly comes up when people try to change the nature of the game once they figured out how some things can be combined.

It´s never that much of a problem when the general agreement is to play it as a straight dungeon crawl, tackling encounters head-on and just keep it that way.
No reaching the point someone figures out that "scry and fry" is a thing and "why not bypass the whole dungeon and kill the BBEG directly" would be possibly (using the rules), that would invalidate the agreement on how this game should be played for that table, moving it from based on tactical application of abilities to the strategical level.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

The game is a social contract between the players and the GM. The GM agrees to write/run a fun adventure, and the players agree to play in the GM's sandbox.

I acknowledge the existence of the "martial/caster imbalance" because so many other players and GMs experience it, but in 35 years of playing the game, I have never seen it as a problem at my table. Maybe my players work very cooperatively (with each other and with me); maybe my campaigns tend to end at too low a level for it to rear its ugly head. (We tend to wrap up around L12 or so.)

Many of the problems are because the GM isn't being forceful enough about making sure everyone is having fun. For example, I don't allow "scry and fry." Scrying shows a creature and not enough of its surroundings to teleport there.

I always enforce the miss chance, too. When my PCs appeared 50 miles out to sea in the middle of a raging storm, and the fighter's and cleric's magic armor ended up on the seafloor, and all of them almost drowning... they really cut back on the teleportation!

I also rule that the only spells that can be taken for free by prepared casters are those from the CRB. Same for spells available for sale on scrolls. Spells from any other source must be found as treasure, learned from an NPC (who will want more than money), or discovered by the PC using the spell research rules.


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Dasrak wrote:
In the case of Blood Money, most people ignore the most important part about this spell: there is only one copy of it in existence and it's in the possession of the Runelord of Greed, Karzoug. It was intended to serve as a reward for completing the entire Rise of the Runelords AP, and if you're just giving this spell away as just a scroll or a standard level-up spell it's being acquired way too cheaply.

Many roleplayers rely on tools like the the PFSRD, Archives of Nethys, or Hero Lab, and are often unaware of minute details such as you describe (especially if they don't appear in the rules text, such as in the spell description, for example).

If you had never played that adventure path before coming across the spell, or weren't told by a more knowledgeable player (such as someone on the forums) of it's origins and extreme rarity, could your play group really be faulted for making use of this spell?

I think not.


Ravingdork wrote:
If you had never played that adventure path before finding the spell, or weren't told by a more knowledgeable person on the forums of it's origins, could your play group really be faulted for making use of this spell?

Yes?

Hero Lab, D20PFSRD, etc. do indicate where the spells come from. It's the GM's job to approve source books before allowing them in the game for reasons exactly like this one.


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John Mechalas wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
If you had never played that adventure path before finding the spell, or weren't told by a more knowledgeable person on the forums of it's origins, could your play group really be faulted for making use of this spell?

Yes?

Hero Lab, D20PFSRD, etc. do indicate where the spells come from. It's the GM's job to approve source books in use for reasons exactly like this one.

Knowing the source is not the same as knowing the non-rules assumptions about a given game element.

Does the adventure module in question even specifically state that, that instance of blood money is the only one in existence? Because if it doesn't, then Dasrak is making an assumption that might not be shared by the GMs and players who make use of the spell.


Ravingdork wrote:
Does the adventure module in question even specifically state that, that instance of blood money is the only one in existence?

I repeat: It's the GM's job to approve source books before allowing them in the game for reasons exactly like this one.

If the GM is approving source books without reading them, or understanding the content in them, then there's a much bigger problem.


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John Mechalas wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
If you had never played that adventure path before finding the spell, or weren't told by a more knowledgeable person on the forums of it's origins, could your play group really be faulted for making use of this spell?

Yes?

Hero Lab, D20PFSRD, etc. do indicate where the spells come from. It's the GM's job to approve source books before allowing them in the game for reasons exactly like this one.

LOL They list the source name and NOTHING else. Do you actually expect a people to see something on one of those site and then run out to buy it to see if the entire thing is 'approvable'? You expect a group to get the whole Runelord AP set to vet a single spell? Or that the group has the cash or time to do so?

The reason people go to the sites is BECAUSE they either can't or don't want to have the pile of books to look through and to have an easy reference that collects everything together. Having to vet each individual rule element defeats the reason you use it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Before the anniversary edition came out it was listed as coming from the final Adventure of the AP, which should have been somewhat telling that a very awesome 1st Level spell was stashed there.

I'm not suggesting that people run out and buy a book just so they can use something (this ain't PFS), just be wary of where it comes from, whether it be an AP or Module or other supplement like Mythic Adventures. It comes from an AP? There's probably a reason it's relegated to an AP.


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Rysky wrote:

Before the anniversary edition came out it was listed as coming from the final Adventure of the AP, which should have been somewhat telling that a very awesome 1st Level spell was stashed there.

I'm not suggesting that people run out and buy a book just so they can use something (this ain't PFS), just be wary of where it comes from, whether it be an AP or Module or other supplement like Mythic Adventures. It comes from an AP? There's probably a reason it's relegated to an AP.

The issue though with AP stuff is that you never know if it was there and should be really limited or if it was there in the awesome nougat(not quite crunchy not completely fluffy) part of the book in the back where they are just going into setting detail. But we do have a whole forum where someone will tell you that "Yeah x spell is great but the only place it exist as of right now would be in a spell book inside of an extra-dimensional vault, inside the Tarrasque's stomach.


Ravingdork wrote:
John Mechalas wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
If you had never played that adventure path before finding the spell, or weren't told by a more knowledgeable person on the forums of it's origins, could your play group really be faulted for making use of this spell?

Yes?

Hero Lab, D20PFSRD, etc. do indicate where the spells come from. It's the GM's job to approve source books in use for reasons exactly like this one.

Knowing the source is not the same as knowing the non-rules assumptions about a given game element.

Does the adventure module in question even specifically state that, that instance of blood money is the only one in existence? Because if it doesn't, then Dasrak is making an assumption that might not be shared by the GMs and players who make use of the spell.

You know, your argument is a bit weird. Check what is available on the PRD and that is more or less cleared for public, without a "Buyer beware" tag to it. Now yes, PF uses the OGL so the mechanical stuff can be used in the public domain, but wouldn't that mean that the D20pfsrd and HeroLab should be a little more careful in differentiating or tagging material when they use it?


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Lemartes wrote:
My Sorcerer screwed up a teleport more than once I think in the same session??? I don't remember one hundred percent but we took damage and we're way off course. Then I teleported again.

I still remember, back in 2nd edition, when my wizard teleported in 5' to low.

Teleporting into the floor in 2nd edition was not resolved with damage. The diner party downstairs was treated to a pair a legs dangling lifelessly from the ceiling.


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Ravingdork wrote:
If you had never played that adventure path before coming across the spell, or weren't told by a more knowledgeable player (such as someone on the forums) of it's origins and extreme rarity, could your play group really be faulted for making use of this spell?

I feel like "What does that spell do? Oh... absolutely not" should be enough to keep that off most tables. I think a general rule of "if it's not from an RPG line book, check with the GM first" is a good way to keep things under control (and wherever that player found it probably said "Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition" somewhere on the page.


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Not really they update that on their own time as they can without a schedule. It hasn't been updated in a year not because the new books aren't fit for the public but because Paizo hasn't gotten around to it.


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Rysky wrote:

Before the anniversary edition came out it was listed as coming from the final Adventure of the AP, which should have been somewhat telling that a very awesome 1st Level spell was stashed there.

I'm not suggesting that people run out and buy a book just so they can use something (this ain't PFS), just be wary of where it comes from, whether it be an AP or Module or other supplement like Mythic Adventures. It comes from an AP? There's probably a reason it's relegated to an AP.

That doesn't follow though. There are 6 other spells from that AP. Can you name them without looking them up? And if you do look them up, have you ever seen a thread saying 'OMG, this is too powerful'? It's coming from an AP has little to do with availability as a whole and there is no 'rule' that rules from the AP can only be found by running it.

For instance, green faith is in an AP. No character should worship it unless they run the AP? Pharasma's unique summons are from an AP too. Bastet is a god from an AP but makes an appearance in blood of beasts.

AP's often expand on material that involve the plot but that doesn't, in ANY way, suggest that material isn't applicable to the game as a whole.


graystone wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Before the anniversary edition came out it was listed as coming from the final Adventure of the AP, which should have been somewhat telling that a very awesome 1st Level spell was stashed there.

I'm not suggesting that people run out and buy a book just so they can use something (this ain't PFS), just be wary of where it comes from, whether it be an AP or Module or other supplement like Mythic Adventures. It comes from an AP? There's probably a reason it's relegated to an AP.

That doesn't follow though. There are 6 other spells from that AP. Can you name them without looking them up? And if you do look them up, have you ever seen a thread saying 'OMG, this is too powerful'? It's coming from an AP has little to do with availability as a whole and there is no 'rule' that rules from the AP can only be found by running it.

For instance, green faith is in an AP. No character should worship it unless they run the AP? Pharasma's unique summons are from an AP too. Bastet is a god from an AP but makes an appearance in blood of beasts.

AP's often expand on material that involve the plot but that doesn't, in ANY way, suggest that material isn't applicable to the game as a whole.

There is nothing wrong with expanding the world using lore contained in the AP's. The AP's have sections for this specific purpose, giving background and creatures that never appear in the AP.

Blood Magic, however, is the personal spell of a Runelord, and found in only one location in all of Golarion, said Runelord's spellbook. (Aside from the minor artifact, from which the spell cannot be transcribed.) That is a part of the lore established in the AP.

Unlike the examples you provide, which expand upon the lore, Making Blood Money available goes against the lore established in the AP. The same argument can be used against many, but not all, other spells and items found in AP's.

It is DM discretion to depart from established lore and make these spells freely available. It is not a player's right to have access to everything published without acquiring it in-game.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
If you had never played that adventure path before coming across the spell, or weren't told by a more knowledgeable player (such as someone on the forums) of it's origins and extreme rarity, could your play group really be faulted for making use of this spell?
I feel like "What does that spell do? Oh... absolutely not" should be enough to keep that off most tables. I think a general rule of "if it's not from an RPG line book, check with the GM first" is a good way to keep things under control (and wherever that player found it probably said "Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition" somewhere on the page.

The spell is actually perfectly fine when someone isn't going out of their way to break it.

The fact that players like to pull crazy shenanigans like body hop into a strong and powerful creature and then cast the spell is a problem with the players, not with the spell.

When used as intended, the spell saves you a little bit of money, and directly weakens your character for a period of time (unless you spend additional resources to reduce the recovery time).


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Snowlilly wrote:
Lemartes wrote:
My Sorcerer screwed up a teleport more than once I think in the same session??? I don't remember one hundred percent but we took damage and we're way off course. Then I teleported again.

I still remember, back in 2nd edition, when my wizard teleported in 5' to low.

Teleporting into the floor in 2nd edition was not resolved with damage. The diner party downstairs was treated to a pair a legs dangling lifelessly from the ceiling.

Which is great, but also completely irrelevant to discussion of the teleport spell in 3rd edition, which removed a number of dangers from spellcasting, including the possibility of that ever happening unless your GM is breaking the rules to **** with you.


If you treat APs as canon then it would be reasonable to assume that in any campaign set after Rise of the Runelords Blood Money would be available.

If that spell is as rare as is being posited, then it would be extremely valuable. Once it is sold it would likely spread and eventually it would be as common as any other spell.


Gallant Armor wrote:

If you treat APs as canon then it would be reasonable to assume that in any campaign set after Rise of the Runelords Blood Money would be available.

If that spell is as rare as is being posited, then it would be extremely valuable. Once it is sold it would likely spread and eventually it would be as common as any other spell.

I am pretty sure that the APs are not cannon, with the small exception of some APs that assumed others had taken place.


Gallant Armor wrote:

If you treat APs as canon then it would be reasonable to assume that in any campaign set after Rise of the Runelords Blood Money would be available.

If that spell is as rare as is being posited, then it would be extremely valuable. Once it is sold it would likely spread and eventually it would be as common as any other spell.

Huh? How so? As the new Runelord-in-Chief, think I´d share any secrets I captured or allow someone to re-craft one of the items I now wear? Actually, as new ruler of Xin-Shalast, why should I stood so low and sell the secret to a new 1st level spell?


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Snowlilly wrote:
Blood Magic, however, is the personal spell of a Runelord, and found in only one location in all of Golarion, said Runelord's spellbook. (Aside from the minor artifact, from which the spell cannot be transcribed.) That is a part of the lore established in the AP.

Could you please point out where in the AP it says this? I pulled it out and looked though it quickly and never saw ANY mention of it being unique or only findable in one location. Where is this lore? I'll grant I skimmed so if it's someplace other than under the spells, please let me know where to look.

What the book says:
"NEW SPELLS
Despite having been originally invented by wizards, these spells also function for other classes."

What it doesn't say is unique spells or even rare spells: just 'strange magic' said offhandedly. Secondly, not everyone is playing/using Golarion or it's lore so if something is meant to be limited, it really should come out and say so.


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Because people will pay literally 'yes' money for it the first few times.

As the new ruler of Xin-Shalast, golems and gear aren't cheap and you only have so much blood.


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Trinam wrote:

Because people will pay literally 'yes' money for it the first few times.

As the new ruler of Xin-Shalast, golems and gear aren't cheap and you only have so much blood.

Plus the new ruler of Xin-Shalast surely has apprentices and someone is going to get greedy. After all, the rule isn't going to use HER blood when minnion #64 can do it. And after a while of giving blood, a big payday looks pretty good. ;)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
graystone wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Before the anniversary edition came out it was listed as coming from the final Adventure of the AP, which should have been somewhat telling that a very awesome 1st Level spell was stashed there.

I'm not suggesting that people run out and buy a book just so they can use something (this ain't PFS), just be wary of where it comes from, whether it be an AP or Module or other supplement like Mythic Adventures. It comes from an AP? There's probably a reason it's relegated to an AP.

That doesn't follow though. There are 6 other spells from that AP. Can you name them without looking them up? And if you do look them up, have you ever seen a thread saying 'OMG, this is too powerful'? It's coming from an AP has little to do with availability as a whole and there is no 'rule' that rules from the AP can only be found by running it.

For instance, green faith is in an AP. No character should worship it unless they run the AP? Pharasma's unique summons are from an AP too. Bastet is a god from an AP but makes an appearance in blood of beasts.

AP's often expand on material that involve the plot but that doesn't, in ANY way, suggest that material isn't applicable to the game as a whole.

I never claimed everything from an AP was strong, possibly too strong, I just suggested being wary.

And the Green Faith and Pharasma articles are not part of an AP, they're articles unto themselves attached to that issue of Pathfinder along with other material that may not even be related to the AP (I miss the fiction ;_;)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
If you had never played that adventure path before coming across the spell, or weren't told by a more knowledgeable player (such as someone on the forums) of it's origins and extreme rarity, could your play group really be faulted for making use of this spell?
I feel like "What does that spell do? Oh... absolutely not" should be enough to keep that off most tables. I think a general rule of "if it's not from an RPG line book, check with the GM first" is a good way to keep things under control (and wherever that player found it probably said "Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition" somewhere on the page.

^ this.


Rysky wrote:
And the Green Faith and Pharasma articles are not part of an AP

They ARE part of AP's.

Wrath of the Righteous, #75: Demon's Heresy: pg#64-69
Carrion Crown, #44: Trail of the Beast: pg#69

If you are giving the sections after the actual adventure a pass then that includes the sections with new spells and items in them...

As to "being wary", well that's a good suggestion for every new thing that gets added to the game. Blood Money isn't good or bad because it's from an AP: That's my point. People would like/dislike it no matter what book it came out in. After all, some of the most disruptive spells ever made have been in the core book...

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

A Wizard did it.


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Eltacolibre wrote:
A Wizard did it.

That can't be true! If they did, you wouldn't remember it, would you? ;)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Purple Overkill wrote:
Gallant Armor wrote:

If you treat APs as canon then it would be reasonable to assume that in any campaign set after Rise of the Runelords Blood Money would be available.

If that spell is as rare as is being posited, then it would be extremely valuable. Once it is sold it would likely spread and eventually it would be as common as any other spell.

Huh? How so? As the new Runelord-in-Chief, think I´d share any secrets I captured or allow someone to re-craft one of the items I now wear? Actually, as new ruler of Xin-Shalast, why should I stood so low and sell the secret to a new 1st level spell?

I know, right? I started my quest in Sandpoint as a lowly amnesiac elven wizard, put up with the shenanigans and party infighting of a bunch of rubes, died three times, and hit the Runelord of Greed with 13 negative levels (and that's without even having 9th level spells!), and these people expect me to share? Pssh. I'm taking my artifacts and rune giant servants and I'm starting an intergalactic soul-stealing empire.

For the greater good, of course.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
graystone wrote:
Rysky wrote:
And the Green Faith and Pharasma articles are not part of an AP

They ARE part of AP's.

Wrath of the Righteous, #75: Demon's Heresy: pg#64-69
Carrion Crown, #44: Trail of the Beast: pg#69

If you are giving the sections after the actual adventure a pass then that includes the sections with new spells and items in them...

Not really, they are a part of that issue of Pathfinder, they are not a part of the Adventure Path.

The thing is those new spells and items are in the AP itself and are just collected in a "bestiary" style fashion for reference, whereas the Deity articles in issues of Pathfinder are separate from the AP itself.

blood money is in the AP itself, it's not just in the backmatter that has no connection to the AP.


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How many years canonically has it been since Rise of the Runelords? At some point, someone has probably snagged that spell from the party that hypothetically resolved that adventure. The secret is, more than likely, out by now on Golarion. The only thing stopping a PC from taking it is a GM.


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Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
How many years canonically has it been since Rise of the Runelords? At some point, someone has probably snagged that spell from the party that hypothetically resolved that adventure. The secret is, more than likely, out by now on Golarion. The only thing stopping a PC from taking it is a GM.

So far? It´s year one after RotRL, CotCT and Serpent Skull (the later one assumed on the involved NPC having had an "after" treatment in Inner Sea Intrigue). It´s still at the point of some factions wanting to mount an expedition towards Xin-Shalast. Assumptions based on available books. If PFS plays it differently, that I don´t know.

Silver Crusade

Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
How many years canonically has it been since Rise of the Runelords? At some point, someone has probably snagged that spell from the party that hypothetically resolved that adventure. The secret is, more than likely, out by now on Golarion. The only thing stopping a PC from taking it is a GM.

Not really, it's only out if whoever took possession of Karzoug's spellbook decided to let it out. Otherwise whoever wants to take it has to contend with at least one lvl 17+ character (more than likely a whole party of such), which is a tall order.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
How many years canonically has it been since Rise of the Runelords?

Canonically, the events of no AP have occurred until a given GM runs one. Unless and until a GM decides otherwise for her campaign.

That said, some adventures do make assumptions... Shattered Star assumes that the events of Runelords, Crimson Throne and Second Darkness have all occurred. Hell's Vengeance assumes that the events of Council of Thieves has occurred. The module The House on Hook Street assumes that the events of Crimson Throne occurred about five years earlier. The campaign setting Lost Cities of Golarion presents the city of Xin-Shalast after its discovery by the adventurers who completed Runelords.

But other than those specific examples, the world is as it's presented in The Inner Sea World Guide, unless a specific GM says otherwise for her campaign.


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Ravingdork wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
If you had never played that adventure path before coming across the spell, or weren't told by a more knowledgeable player (such as someone on the forums) of it's origins and extreme rarity, could your play group really be faulted for making use of this spell?
I feel like "What does that spell do? Oh... absolutely not" should be enough to keep that off most tables. I think a general rule of "if it's not from an RPG line book, check with the GM first" is a good way to keep things under control (and wherever that player found it probably said "Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition" somewhere on the page.

The spell is actually perfectly fine when someone isn't going out of their way to break it.

The fact that players like to pull crazy shenanigans like body hop into a strong and powerful creature and then cast the spell is a problem with the players, not with the spell.

When used as intended, the spell saves you a little bit of money, and directly weakens your character for a period of time (unless you spend additional resources to reduce the recovery time).

+1

I've seen this spell used a few times, and it isn't terribly overpowered unless your players are using absurd shenanigans to try for free wishes. It makes expensive spells more workable, especially tricks like animate dead which cost a lot and have often-restricted components due to social stigmas. It also means some spells that are fun but have "expensive" material components for flavor rather than balance are easier to use.

Note that it (arguably) doesn't work with spells that have a casting time greater than a round because the materials disappear too quickly.

A house rule to make the spell more balanced is to say the caster can only take ability score damage in exchange for material components equal to their permanent strength score. This prevents a lot of "free wish" type shenanigans where a caster buffs their strength as high as they can and has a cleric heal them the next round.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

While d20pfsrd is sometimes a useful reference, if you decide to use things from it without owning the actual books -effectively "stealing" the material- and therefore mess up your game due to lack of context, I have a hard time being terribly sympathetic. If you're unwilling to buy the book, use at your own risk.


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ryric wrote:
While d20pfsrd is sometimes a useful reference, if you decide to use things from it without owning the actual books -effectively "stealing" the material- and therefore mess up your game due to lack of context, I have a hard time being terribly sympathetic. If you're unwilling to buy the book, use at your own risk.

It's not always 'unwilling.' Most people just can't afford to buy all 400+ books that Paizo has put out for Pathfinder. As a broke college student myself, I have to heavily rely on sites like the Golarion Wiki, D20PFSRD, and the Archives of Nethys for my world info and rules. I just can't shell out the thousands needed to buy even the PDFs for everything.

I would also contest the use of the term "stealing," but it's really not important.


Dαedαlus wrote:
ryric wrote:
While d20pfsrd is sometimes a useful reference, if you decide to use things from it without owning the actual books -effectively "stealing" the material- and therefore mess up your game due to lack of context, I have a hard time being terribly sympathetic. If you're unwilling to buy the book, use at your own risk.

It's not always 'unwilling.' Most people just can't afford to buy all 400+ books that Paizo has put out for Pathfinder. As a broke college student myself, I have to heavily rely on sites like the Golarion Wiki, D20PFSRD, and the Archives of Nethys for my world info and rules. I just can't shell out the thousands needed to buy even the PDFs for everything.

I would also contest the use of the term "stealing," but it's really not important.

Very few people are going to complain about you using public sources for Pathfinder.

Just realize context matters, and a lack of context can and will destroy games in the hands of an unskilled DM and/or munchkin players.

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