War for the Crown AP, Feb 2018


War for the Crown

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Zaister wrote:
** spoiler omitted ** does indeed sound James-Bond-like :-)

and it's a good title for the first book especially, the start of the AP.

Spoiler:
Crownfall is where we start
A thousand miles and poles apart
Where worlds collide and days are dark


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
motteditor wrote:

So, I went to the Adventure Path Q&A at PaizoCon, and much of it was about War for the Crown. I *think* I'm OK posting these spoilers, but I apologize if not.

For what it's worth, I think it's going to be awesome. Anyway, spoilers for what Paizo's planning; some of these notes may be a little scattered as there was a lot to keep track of.

** spoiler omitted **...

Very, very interesting. Looking forward to this one alot.


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@Ckorik, if you want to talk about RotR and CotCT, please make a thread for it and stop derailing this one.

K?

Thanks!

Bye!


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motteditor wrote:

So, I went to the Adventure Path Q&A at PaizoCon, and much of it was about War for the Crown. I *think* I'm OK posting these spoilers, but I apologize if not.

For what it's worth, I think it's going to be awesome. Anyway, spoilers for what Paizo's planning; some of these notes may be a little scattered as there was a lot to keep track of.

** spoiler omitted **...

Do you know if they addressed or were asked how intrigue would work with the experience system?


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For what it's worth, it's fairly easy to say that an intrigue-style encounter is at a certain CR, and therefore gives experience. It's not like killing enemies is the only way to gain XP. ^^

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Ckorik, no discussion about that. But I think GM Rednal is correct.

For example...:

I would guess in Book 4, if you co-opt some element of the spy network by posing as the spymaster, you would get the same XP as if you'd killed that element.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yep, forget James Bond- I'm gonna play Taldan George Smiley. Let those who would oppose my unprepossessing, fat, nearsighted type tremble in fear.


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GM Rednal wrote:
For what it's worth, it's fairly easy to say that an intrigue-style encounter is at a certain CR, and therefore gives experience. It's not like killing enemies is the only way to gain XP. ^^

No we may have mixed signals - I'm more worried they are going to cram a bunch of combat where it doesn't make sense because there (from past product discussion) is a large and apparently vocal part of the customer base that rejects anything other than 'x combat encounters to level up'.

Things change - it's my biggest concern - the outline looks good -

Spoiler:

The planar travel one should be good for info on the plane if nothing else

That's why I asked anyway :P


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Whatever some customers may feel, it's basically always been true that non-combat encounters can provide experience. Disarming traps is probably the most prominent version of this, but hardly the only one. There's social encounters, fulfilling specific criteria in a scene, etc.

Also, people who really want combat to level up may be less inclined to play an intrigue-based AP in the first place... I mean, I'm sure there will be some combat - every good adventure needs that, if only for balance - but I don't think we'll need to worry too much. ^^ Must groups don't play every AP anyway, so as long as there's enough balance with the AP's surrounding any given one...


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I actually had a WTF moment when I heard about this because I had asked this back on Ask J.J. Thread in early 2014. I need to know if this was an influence.....


motteditor wrote:

So, I went to the Adventure Path Q&A at PaizoCon, and much of it was about War for the Crown. I *think* I'm OK posting these spoilers, but I apologize if not.

For what it's worth, I think it's going to be awesome. Anyway, spoilers for what Paizo's planning; some of these notes may be a little scattered as there was a lot to keep track of.

** spoiler omitted **...

Damn, sounds great!


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In the APs I run I don't even grant XP, I just move PCs along to the next level when I feel it's appropriate.

Dark Archive

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Jessica Price wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Now while I do agree that if you post something in public message board, other posters have right to comment on our post whether they agree or disagree, but I have to say I don't think he has to "prove" you guys by linking you guys old posts he is talking about :P This ain't exactly a court or something
If he's going to single out an individual staffer and call them a liar, in public, then yes, he should be able to back up his claims.

Umm... Yeah, well, you are right about that .-. Dunno what I was thinking before. Blergh.

Grand Lodge Contributor

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GM Rednal wrote:

Whatever some customers may feel, it's basically always been true that non-combat encounters can provide experience. Disarming traps is probably the most prominent version of this, but hardly the only one. There's social encounters, fulfilling specific criteria in a scene, etc.

Also, people who really want combat to level up may be less inclined to play an intrigue-based AP in the first place... I mean, I'm sure there will be some combat - every good adventure needs that, if only for balance - but I don't think we'll need to worry too much. ^^ Must groups don't play every AP anyway, so as long as there's enough balance with the AP's surrounding any given one...

Very true. Many APs have story awards that basically give the PCs the same amount of XP if they manage to avoid a fight. In Book 4 (which I'm writing), most of the time, the players can use disguises, persuasion, or stealth to affect how an encounter plays out. Fighting is usually an option, but it's not always the best option.

Can't go into more detail, so I'll just say that this is going to be an awesome AP. :-)


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Zaister wrote:
Spoiler:
"death senate"
sounds a bit like a scenario similar to "Designated Survivor". Intriguing...

Actually, to me it sounds disturbingly similar to some of the things said in US political campaigns of the last few years . . . Now I feel compelled to try to discover what's the Taldan equivalent of Twitter . . . .


Paizo really should no longer make anymore promises along the lines of " We are going to try and keep bloat down" or "Rise of the runelords is the only Ap that will be compiled and updated into a Hardcover" imo. The part about bloat should have never been promised let alone even Some fans seem to take it to heart. That being said Paizo is a business first. If it's in their best interests to make more and more new material. To me as a observer looking in the demand is there. Why the hell not. Same thing with compiling older Aps or older material into hardcovers. Again why not.

I don't purchase every book from Paizo. I'm not forced to. I want a new edition of Pathfinder that fixes the current issues with system. It's probably never going to happen. At the same time I'm not going to accuse Paizo of lying to me because the current version imo ports over the same issues from 3.5. Idid my own research. I spoke with some friends who play it and decided to buy it anyway. I was not lied to. It's like buying a car with standard transmission when wanting automatic then blaming the seller for lying to you even when the seller told you over and over that the car had a standard transmission.

I'm looking forward to a more political style AP though that kind of AP needs the right group and players.

Silver Crusade

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Max walking along Fury Road wrote:
Paizo really should no longer make anymore promises along the lines of " We are going to try and keep bloat down" or "Rise of the runelords is the only Ap that will be compiled and updated into a Hardcover" imo

That's really hard when they never made those promises to begin with.

The Exchange

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Max walking along Fury Road wrote:
Paizo really should no longer make anymore promises along the lines .

Or maybe people should stop thinking that everything has to be about them alone and Paizo may not do anything for other customers with different tastes.

I consider it a boon that Paizo officials have been willing to communicate with us on these forums like forever, and it would be a shame if they would need to stop this just because some people can't handle the difference between private opinion and offical announcement.


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Mikko Kallio wrote:
GM Rednal wrote:

Whatever some customers may feel, it's basically always been true that non-combat encounters can provide experience. Disarming traps is probably the most prominent version of this, but hardly the only one. There's social encounters, fulfilling specific criteria in a scene, etc.

Also, people who really want combat to level up may be less inclined to play an intrigue-based AP in the first place... I mean, I'm sure there will be some combat - every good adventure needs that, if only for balance - but I don't think we'll need to worry too much. ^^ Must groups don't play every AP anyway, so as long as there's enough balance with the AP's surrounding any given one...

Very true. Many APs have story awards that basically give the PCs the same amount of XP if they manage to avoid a fight. In Book 4 (which I'm writing), most of the time, the players can use disguises, persuasion, or stealth to affect how an encounter plays out. Fighting is usually an option, but it's not always the best option.

Can't go into more detail, so I'll just say that this is going to be an awesome AP. :-)

That's fantastic!

For those of you who seem to think I'm just making this up - for reference...

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qpuq?CONGRATS-Paizo-on-an-outstanding-adventur e-path#23

I suppose at the end of the day if the option is there to be murder hobo's it takes care of the critics - which is a shame Dragon's Demand was (I had hoped) a new direction that was going to see us with more than just '5 more ogres' repeat ad infinitum.

I will love it when the default solution is non combat - and the note at the bottom says 'if the players kill this npc give them exp like they had done the job correctly' instead of the other way around it usually is.


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Rysky wrote:
Max walking along Fury Road wrote:
Paizo really should no longer make anymore promises along the lines of " We are going to try and keep bloat down" or "Rise of the runelords is the only Ap that will be compiled and updated into a Hardcover" imo
That's really hard when they never made those promises to begin with.

http://paizo.com/search?q=bloat&what=object&includeUnrated=true& ;includeUnavailable=true&person=v5748aid7pntf

Erik Mona wrote:


make the game more mythic in scope is not to make it more bloated with math.

We're all worried about rules bloat.

1) After running Dragon for as long as we did and making our own contributions to prestige class bloat, I'll bet we're more sick of them than most of you are

We don't have patience for eternal rules bloat either,

But we're conscious about the dangers of class bloat

I submit it is pretty reasonable to take the *3 years* of consistent statements by the publisher (who used the word we - to mean Paizo so it wasn't a 'personal opinion') as that they were trying to keep bloat down. I hate to keep this up but I will stand up to validate others opinions when they are valid, especially when they suddenly get stomped all over despite evidence that they have a point.


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David knott 242 wrote:

As to how the PCs are driven to side with the Princess: The adventure path could start while Stavian is still alive, and their success in the initial adventure results in the player characters being rewarded with positions in his service. As part of their initiation, they are required to pledge their fealty to the Grand Prince and to his daughter (and heir).

Then Prince Stavian dies, and the part of their pledge that they probably took less seriously now binds them to support the Princess.

I hope there will be several reasons why to join the Princess' side. Makes good material for campaign traits...

Random ideas:

1) The Princess is a better person than the male inheritor.
2) The Princess cares more about the group you belong to: She tolerates your faith in Norgorber, she doesn't suspect every Chelaxian to be a spy, she tries to lift bans on some arcane magic / work of Pathfinder Society etc..
3) You have a bad history with the male inheritor.
4) You hope to marry the Princess after putting her onto the throne.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Ckorik wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Max walking along Fury Road wrote:
Paizo really should no longer make anymore promises along the lines of " We are going to try and keep bloat down" or "Rise of the runelords is the only Ap that will be compiled and updated into a Hardcover" imo
That's really hard when they never made those promises to begin with.

http://paizo.com/search?q=bloat&what=object&includeUnrated=true& ;includeUnavailable=true&person=v5748aid7pntf

Erik Mona wrote:


make the game more mythic in scope is not to make it more bloated with math.

We're all worried about rules bloat.

1) After running Dragon for as long as we did and making our own contributions to prestige class bloat, I'll bet we're more sick of them than most of you are

We don't have patience for eternal rules bloat either,

But we're conscious about the dangers of class bloat

I submit it is pretty reasonable to take the *3 years* of consistent statements by the publisher (who used the word we - to mean Paizo so it wasn't a 'personal opinion') as that they were trying to keep bloat down. I hate to keep this up but I will stand up to validate others opinions when they are valid, especially when they suddenly get stomped all over despite evidence that they have a point.

(the linky doesn't really work, it just go to a search for the world "bloat", not an actual post)

Okay so they did, in this case referencing prestige classes, say they would cut back on bloat, which they have, compared to Wizards release schedule, they've put out significantly less classes and prestige classes than 3rd, instead leaving options up to Archetypes and feats.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Uh, I just found his posts and you might want to quote and date the whole thing rather than cannibaize it to bolster your statement.

"Erik Mona" January 8, 2009 wrote:

In July we officially kick off the Pathfinder RPG with the release of the Pathfinder Bestiary. The massive Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook follows in August, but beyond that we have not yet announced additional rules support for the game.

That support IS coming, and we're in the process of finalizing what form it will take.

The current plan is to release between 2-3 hardcover rulebooks per year, including additional Pathfinder Bestiaries.

What form would you like these books to take? Would you be interested in subscribing to such a line, provided the books cost somewhere around $35 a pop?

What titles/ideas would you like to see us explore?

We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?

Are you as tired of prestige classes as I am?

Discuss.

So this post was made before Pathfinder was even released, and aside from a joke about prestige classes he made a vague comment about "worried about rules bloat".

What is rule bloat anyway? Too many prestige classes? Pathfinder has way less than 3rd. This is going to greatly vary between people but just material in general ain't gonna cut it, since they have to put out new material to stay in business, to start business in the first place.

"We're all worried about rules bloat." is a bit different than "We are going to try and keep bloat down."


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To me that seems like another good example, Ckorik.

In my view, Paizo's openness about where they are now and where they're going is a real plus about the company (other RPG companies are far more opaque in my experience). I can see how some may take that as some kind of guarantee/promise - especially when the same policy holds true for several years. Nonetheless, I believe doing that is an error - unless Paizo have specifically made a guarantee (and those are pretty rare! I'm struggling to think of one) then I think the correct interpretation is to just take their comments at face value:

"This is what we're doing now and we have no current intention of changing".

Whether it's bloat, reprints, PDF policies, new product lines or whatever. They are open about their thinking at any time but willing to change with circumstances or the market (and in my view, as in this AP, they telegraph the potential issues in advance, which I appreciate).

For a long time there were no PDF subscriptions, for example. Who would have benefitted by trying to hold Paizo to that as some kind of guarantee? We just would have never got a PFS subscription option. (Or alternatively, they would never have discussed the ins and outs of the issue for fear of locking themselves in).


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Steve Geddes wrote:

To me that seems like another good example, Ckorik.

In my view, Paizo's openness about where they are now and where they're going is a real plus about the company (other RPG companies are far more opaque in my experience). I can see how some may take that as some kind of guarantee/promise - especially when the same policy holds true for several years. Nonetheless, I believe doing that is an error - unless Paizo have specifically made a guarantee (and those are pretty rare! I'm struggling to think of one) then I think the correct interpretation is to just take their comments at face value:

"This is what we're doing now and we have no current intention of changing".

Whether it's bloat, reprints, PDF policies, new product lines or whatever. They are open about their thinking at any time but willing to change with circumstances or the market (and in my view, as in this AP, they telegraph the potential issues in advance, which I appreciate).

For a long time there were no PDF subscriptions, for example. Who would have benefitted by trying to hold Paizo to that as some kind of guarantee? We just would have never got a PFS subscription option. (Or alternatively, they would never have discussed the ins and outs of the issue for fear of locking themselves in).

I'm not advocating that they aren't allowed to change - I think that's the only way to survive (as a company, or a human honestly). I don't think denying that it's a change is useful.

Take the intrigue 'encounters' I keep bringing up - based on how previous things went down and comments about how they were received I was hesitant that they could approach this new AP in a way that I would prefer - but it looks like the winds have changed - I'm ecstatic over this - I'm sure that the same people who complained about Dragon's Demand will be unhappy (unsure - like I said previously hopefully a murder hobo route will ensure less complaints).


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Ckorik wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

To me that seems like another good example, Ckorik.

In my view, Paizo's openness about where they are now and where they're going is a real plus about the company (other RPG companies are far more opaque in my experience). I can see how some may take that as some kind of guarantee/promise - especially when the same policy holds true for several years. Nonetheless, I believe doing that is an error - unless Paizo have specifically made a guarantee (and those are pretty rare! I'm struggling to think of one) then I think the correct interpretation is to just take their comments at face value:

"This is what we're doing now and we have no current intention of changing".

Whether it's bloat, reprints, PDF policies, new product lines or whatever. They are open about their thinking at any time but willing to change with circumstances or the market (and in my view, as in this AP, they telegraph the potential issues in advance, which I appreciate).

For a long time there were no PDF subscriptions, for example. Who would have benefitted by trying to hold Paizo to that as some kind of guarantee? We just would have never got a PFS subscription option. (Or alternatively, they would never have discussed the ins and outs of the issue for fear of locking themselves in).

I'm not advocating that they aren't allowed to change - I think that's the only way to survive (as a company, or a human honestly). I don't think denying that it's a change is useful.

We don't really disagree on that then.

I do disagree on some of the interpretations of the past posts you've been providing. I don't think Paizo have ever said "We're not going to change these things". Nor do I think that post Rysky quoted above is some kind of "We'll never cause bloat or release Prestige Classes".

The fact they innovate/experiment and push the boundaries is another on the long list of things that impress me about Paizo. I've worked with many small businesses over the years and there's a temptation to stick with what you know. In my opinion, Paizo do a great job of walking the line between preserving what works and leaving room to try new stuff.


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Steve Geddes wrote:


I do disagree on some of the interpretations of the past posts you've been providing. I don't think Paizo have ever said "We're not going to change these things". Nor do I think that post Rysky quoted above is some kind of "We'll never cause bloat or release Prestige Classes".

I don't know - I think the fact that he (Erik) made similar statements for the first 3 years of pathfinder (my link above is every quote by Erik that mentions bloat - it does work) is enough for people to feel that way. I don't get the need to deny other peoples opinions because they are negative - as long as the feedback isn't abusive (what the report button is for) or personal then does it hurt so much to acknowledge the point?

Quote:
The fact they innovate/experiment and push the boundaries is another on the long list of things that impress me about Paizo. I've worked with many small businesses over the years and there's a temptation to stick with what you know. In my opinion, Paizo do a great job of walking the line between preserving what works and leaving room to try new stuff.

I put their culture and values up at the top of the list honestly - I've been critical in the past (over art, and NPC writeups) and frankly I've seen them change in response - if at the time my criticisms were drowned out by others would they still have made those changes? (Mind - I don't feel personally responsible for the change - however the number of voices complaining about cheesecake vs beefcake art were certainly small compared to the number of people who didn't care at all).

Criticism allows introspection if you allow and embrace it. I do draw the line if it gets personal.

Contributor

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GM Rednal wrote:
Well, it's no Castorhage, but I'm sure Mr. Pett will have some... experiences... for the players to "enjoy". XD

Having an absolute blast writing this AP segment, it's very joyful. Heh, heh.

Rich

Silver Crusade

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Ckorik wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:


I do disagree on some of the interpretations of the past posts you've been providing. I don't think Paizo have ever said "We're not going to change these things". Nor do I think that post Rysky quoted above is some kind of "We'll never cause bloat or release Prestige Classes".
I don't know - I think the fact that he (Erik) made similar statements for the first 3 years of pathfinder (my link above is every quote by Erik that mentions bloat - it does work) is enough for people to feel that way. I don't get the need to deny other peoples opinions because they are negative - as long as the feedback isn't abusive (what the report button is for) or personal then does it hurt so much to acknowledge the point?

okay so it was a link to his posts, of which there are 6.

And they are all about Prestige Classes and how he thought there was too many of them in 3rd. So saying "similar statements for the first 3 years" is a bit misleading.


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Ckorik wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

I do disagree on some of the interpretations of the past posts you've been providing. I don't think Paizo have ever said "We're not going to change these things". Nor do I think that post Rysky quoted above is some kind of "We'll never cause bloat or release Prestige Classes".

I don't know - I think the fact that he (Erik) made similar statements for the first 3 years of pathfinder (my link above is every quote by Erik that mentions bloat - it does work) is enough for people to feel that way. I don't get the need to deny other peoples opinions because they are negative - as long as the feedback isn't abusive (what the report button is for) or personal then does it hurt so much to acknowledge the point?

I don't think we should deny people's opinions either. Like you, I've made critical comments about Paizo products from time to time. I think it's important to critique what they actually do, not a misreading of what they do.

I'm not saying "you shouldn't say anything negative" I just think you're misunderstanding what he said. That's especially true of the quote where he said:

"We're all worried about rules bloat. What is your opinion of new classes and races?"

The bold might sound like expressing a policy but in context Erik is clearly seeking input as to what the policy should be.

I can't really say it any better than I have.


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To be fair they said they would attempt to keep the amount of rules bloat to a minimum. They never promised to not release new rules. I don't understand how anyone could truly believe a rpg company would never release new material. It reminds of the shock and dismay of the fanbase when Wotc released 4E. Yet they somehow totally forget how early 3.5. was released on the heels of third edition. To myself and my gaming group it was a given a new edition was in the works. The only thing we were not sure about was when.

As for older APs being compiled into a updated hardcover. I never received the impression that they never planned to release more. They played it smart, waited for the older versions to go out of print and then release the updated hardback. Again I don't understand the surprise on them updating Curse of The Crimson Throne. If they updated Runelords again it's a given they plan to do other Aps. I hope to see a compiled Kingmaker hardcover.

Sovereign Court

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James Jacobs wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:

So far, Paizo have done a good job of allowing setting material to work before/after APs for those who run them, mostly by assuming pre-AP in the setting material. APs always run individually, especially with outcomes, so even if the AP has been played, a post-AP piece of setting may invalidate *my* game.

I.e. if Paizo invented rulers who had completed Kingmaker, what does that mean for my PCs who completed Kingmaker...

Paizo have done this pretty well so far, but it's easy to worry about hundreds and hundreds of dollars of books being invalidated. And about home campaigns being disrupted.

And we'll continue to try to do so.

The Worldwound book is a good example, I think. Even if you play Wrath of the Righteous, the bulk of the content in the 64 page Worldwound book is still applicable. I like to think over the past decade plus we've gotten pretty good at juggling AP story advancement and other products. It's a moving target, of course, and we'll continue to keep an eye on it, but if we do something that folks LOVE in an AP (say, create a group like the Gray Maidens, or have something like Thassilon's legacy become a big part of the setting rather than something no one in-world knows about), we'll run with it.

It's weird when you think you're pouring oil on troubled waters and other people react as if you're a critic.

I am totally unconcerned about this: Paizo's judgement has been solid for a long time and the way they have balanced adventure content versus setting content for world-building (& timeline) has been elegant.

I just wanted to point out that understanding why other people might have a raw emotional/instinctive reaction is more important than some people trying to slap it down.

Sovereign Court

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graywulfe wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:
It would also run the risk of invalidating *my* Golarion.
Okay I'm sorry but that is patently ridiculous! I am so tired of this line it angers me every time I see it anymore. It's right up there with, "Elminster ruined my campaign."

It freaks me out that you are angered by this debate.

If I run only APs and modules, and base it all on previously published stuff (not homebrew based on sourcebooks) then it is very easy to invalidate my campaign by advancing the timeline.

And that's what I do.

Just a different perspective and experience. Please, don't be angry, it's not worth the distress.

Silver Crusade

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GeraintElberion wrote:
graywulfe wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:
It would also run the risk of invalidating *my* Golarion.
Okay I'm sorry but that is patently ridiculous! I am so tired of this line it angers me every time I see it anymore. It's right up there with, "Elminster ruined my campaign."

It freaks me out that you are angered by this debate.

If I run only APs and modules, and base it all on previously published stuff (not homebrew based on sourcebooks) then it is very easy to invalidate my campaign by advancing the timeline.

And that's what I do.

Just a different perspective and experience. Please, don't be angry, it's not worth the distress.

Except it's not, since you still have all your book detailing the campaign world when you started and when you're playing now. That's kinda like saying playing the third part of an AP invalidates the first part, when it doesn't.

Liberty's Edge

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In and among all the kibitzing about whether home campaigns are invalidated or not by APs and new books (or whether Paizo lied about this, that, and the other thing) is the central idea and premise of this AP.

How much intrigue, political scheming and espionage/sabotage this AP in fact delivers on is a matter we will know when it is released.

As a premise, however, this is the single coolest thing I have read about for an intended AP plot in many years.

I understand that many players and GMs like many different things and this one will not excite some. By the same token, please understand that this one appears to be RIGHT UP MY GROUP's ALLEY.

It could be set in Taldor, or anywhere, really. Region setting is nowhere near as important as the premise itself.

Very much looking forward to it!


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Me too. It's going to be awesome! :)


GeraintElberion wrote:


If I run only APs and modules, and base it all on previously published stuff (not homebrew based on sourcebooks) then it is very easy to invalidate my campaign by advancing the timeline.

How exactly, cause I'm not sure I understand that idea.


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We were doing so good with info on the AP and silencing of those arguing about a topic no longer relevant to this thread.

That outline and stuff looks awesome. And does look like a good place to try an all vigilante group if I can convince other players to be on board.


jedi8187 wrote:


That outline and stuff looks awesome. And does look like a good place to try an all vigilante group if I can convince other players to be on board.

An all vigilante group sounds nice


Hythlodeus wrote:
jedi8187 wrote:


That outline and stuff looks awesome. And does look like a good place to try an all vigilante group if I can convince other players to be on board.

An all vigilante group sounds nice

Yeah it was an idea I had after starting our Hell's Rebels game and have been looking for a place to do it ever since. This seems like a good place, where everyone adopts alter egos to do some of the shadier work or something like that.


Social identities are various lesser noble scions. In their vigilante identities they work together 'by accident in the field' or somesuch, which should make for interesting role-playing early on. Alternatively, they're all in the same family or Princess Demandypants' extended family that already know each others' alter-egos.


I am so excited about this! This seems to be the campaign I have been hoping for all these years. Will be hard to wait for it!


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Steel_Wind wrote:

In and among all the kibitzing about whether home campaigns are invalidated or not by APs and new books (or whether Paizo lied about this, that, and the other thing) is the central idea and premise of this AP.

How much intrigue, political scheming and espionage/sabotage this AP in fact delivers on is a matter we will know when it is released.

As a premise, however, this is the single coolest thing I have read about for an intended AP plot in many years.

I understand that many players and GMs like many different things and this one will not excite some. By the same token, please understand that this one appears to be RIGHT UP MY GROUP's ALLEY.

It could be set in Taldor, or anywhere, really. Region setting is nowhere near as important as the premise itself.

Very much looking forward to it!

I have been running Forgotten Realms table top for 15 years. All of my campaigns build on one another. Old PCs are trotted out as NPCs. What those PCs did have an impact on, often times directly, the newest campaign I am running. I do the same things with my Vampire game which transitioned from table top to here on the boards. A full quarter of the NPCs were former PCs.

I would handle Golarion the same way were I to DM it table top with one group as I believe it adds a richness and flavor to the world where Players had a hand in crafting its history and shaping its future. Gives them more of an investment in the game world.

I say if an AP invalidates something in your home group, feel free to ignore it or change it, it's what I do.

That said, the more I hear about this one, the more I like it.


jedi8187 wrote:

We were doing so good with info on the AP and silencing of those arguing about a topic no longer relevant to this thread.

That outline and stuff looks awesome. And does look like a good place to try an all vigilante group if I can convince other players to be on board.

Great idea, its probably the theme I will run with when I Recruit for it here on the Boards.


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motteditor wrote:
So, I went to the Adventure Path Q&A at PaizoCon, and much of it was about War for the Crown. I *think* I'm OK posting these spoilers, but I apologize if not.

Thanks for posting those! It sounds like it will be great. :)

Aromaz Esoj wrote:
I can not wait run this with Heroes of the Streets and Heroes of the High Court supplements . Will this involve the Loin Blades from Taldor?

Loin Blades? Those guys are crazy! ;)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
GeraintElberion wrote:

Also,

I am super-stoked to be getting this AP.

I have been trying to write it for ages. Now I don't have to.

This seems to be a theme, as I'm in the same situation and at least one other person here is as well.

I'll probably have to do some significant rewrites, as I want a less combat themed campaign than Paizo is probably going to deliver, but still. Great anticipation from my side. :)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
captain yesterday wrote:

Excuse me! A crusade!

Shame on you.

I did feel lied to.

Okay, seriously. Why? Did you just ignore the existance of Shattered Star and Jade Regent? They explicitly had advanced the timeline so that RotRL and CotCT had happened. And they have been out for years.

I'm definitely in the "advance the entire timeline already!" camp, because I feel a static setting does feel, well, static and as such less interesting. So I've been salty for years that Paizo had mostly kept to their stance of keeping the main setting as it is. I took my little victories with Jade Regent and Shattered Star, but otherwise kept buying the AP's. It just is what it is and you can ignore any timeline advancement in your own campaign, like most people do.

And, honestly, if we ever get a Pathfinder 2nd Edition, they probably will have to advance the entire timeline as well, to sell new campaign setting books. Just be prepared that it will happen eventually.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ckorik wrote:
GM Rednal wrote:
For what it's worth, it's fairly easy to say that an intrigue-style encounter is at a certain CR, and therefore gives experience. It's not like killing enemies is the only way to gain XP. ^^

No we may have mixed signals - I'm more worried they are going to cram a bunch of combat where it doesn't make sense because there (from past product discussion) is a large and apparently vocal part of the customer base that rejects anything other than 'x combat encounters to level up'.

Things change - it's my biggest concern - the outline looks good -
** spoiler omitted **

That's why I asked anyway :P

I think after I've bought entire APs which don't interest me in the slightest (Ironfang Invasion, Giantslayer to name just two), other people can certainly also be expected to have to buy (or just sit out) AP's which don't exactly tickle their fancy. Fair's fair, after all.

Also, this AP is pretty clearly set to use systems introduced in Ultimate Intrigue, which I am really looking forward to.


GeraintElberion wrote:

Also,

I am super-stoked to be getting this AP.

I have been trying to write it for ages. Now I don't have to.

Agreed. I think political intrigue lends itself to some systems better than others. My V20 Dark Ages game has been going for 5 years, 10,000 posts, MAYBE five combats in all that time. The rest RP and political intrigue.

The PC'S enjoy it.

Harder to find D&D Pathfinder PCs that would tolerate that style for that long without trying to kill something.

I guess when this new AP drops in 2018, many of us will find out. :-)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Storyteller Shadow wrote:
GeraintElberion wrote:

Also,

I am super-stoked to be getting this AP.

I have been trying to write it for ages. Now I don't have to.

Agreed. I think political intrigue lends itself to some systems better than others. My V20 Dark Ages game has been going for 5 years, 10,000 posts, MAYBE five combats in all that time. The rest RP and political intrigue.

The PC'S enjoy it.

Harder to find D&D Pathfinder PCs that would tolerate that style for that long without trying to kill sonething.

I guess when this new AP drops in 2018, many of us will find out. :-)

Well... it helps when you are a neonate surrounded by your elders in court. You might very well want to kill someone but doing it without serious repercussions is usually not possible.

Anyway I agree with your point: as I wrote before I fear the PF/3.x system is not the best for intrigue heavy games. Yet I'm super supportive of Paizo to try and I hope they can overcome the inherent challanges of providing an interesting AP based on such themes within the PF system restrictions.

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