Best ranged combatant?


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Silver Crusade

So...after a PFS adventure module this afternoon which ended in a TPK...I am thinking about making something I have not played in a very long time...a ranged combatant.

What are some of the best options out there?

Archery builds (of which there are numerous options) are an obvious possibility.

Blaster oriented casters (though their limited spells per day could be a real hindrance).

Kineticist looks like a contender, not 100% on their mechanics though...only had the book they are in for a month, and have no experience with them.

Throwing builds don't really seem very viable, having to enchant multiple throwing weapons (even with a blink back belt) would be super costly at higher levels.

Gunslingers? They seem powerful, but also expensive to keep up with ammunition for anything beyond the simplest stuff.

I pretty much exclusively play PFS games right now, so no 3pp stuff, 20 point buy, only PFS legal stuff please.

Thanks,
Vex

Scarab Sages

Archery is the number one dpr build in the game regardless of combat style. It has the best range increments the best attacks per round, and the best feat support. It's very feat intensive, and you can be good at it with a number of different classes.

Blasters are sub-optimal. You can make them work, but it's a lot of work and you would have been more effective going for different casting focus or with an actual ranged class.

Kineticists are very solid. They have a very high optimization floor and a lower ceiling, so they may seem sub-par at top levels of play, but they may also seem over-powered at lower levels of play. It's got some interesting utility and good baseline damage.

Throwing builds can be competitive with archery builds with the weapon masters handbook thanks to ricochet toss, but it's even more feat intensive than archery and requires weapon training, so you are basically limited to fighters and molthuni arsenal chaplain warpriests.

Gunslingers are decent archery replacements, with plusses and minuses. Bolt Ace gets points for making crossbows viable.


Any spell caster with optimized save or suck spells.


Imbicatus wrote:

Archery is the number one dpr build in the game regardless of combat style. It has the best range increments the best attacks per round, and the best feat support. It's very feat intensive, and you can be good at it with a number of different classes.

Blasters are sub-optimal. You can make them work, but it's a lot of work and you would have been more effective going for different casting focus or with an actual ranged class.

Kineticists are very solid. They have a very high optimization floor and a lower ceiling, so they may seem sub-par at top levels of play, but they may also seem over-powered at lower levels of play. It's got some interesting utility and good baseline damage.

Throwing builds can be competitive with archery builds with the weapon masters handbook thanks to ricochet toss, but it's even more feat intensive than archery and requires weapon training, so you are basically limited to fighters and molthuni arsenal chaplain warpriests.

Gunslingers are decent archery replacements, with plusses and minuses. Bolt Ace gets points for making crossbows viable.

This. Archery is good with many classes and many races.


Chess Pwn wrote:


This. Archery is good with many classes and many races.

Just remember it became less good with the magic bow FAQ/errata. Magic bows no longer do anything for DR except DR/magic.

Silver Crusade

Imbicatus wrote:
Kineticists are very solid. They have a very high optimization floor and a lower ceiling, so they may seem sub-par at top levels of play, but they may also seem over-powered at lower levels of play. It's got some interesting utility and good baseline damage.

How do the physical blast elements hold up? Going straight earth element looks pretty solid ;), but do they run into problems hitting at higher levels since they target normal AC instead of touch? This is for PFS, so top levels of play would only be level 11-12.

Pink Dragon wrote:
Any spell caster with optimized save or suck spells.

Those have their limits though...limited spell slots per day, and a lot of stuff is just straight up immune to a lot of the save or suck spells...something like a Kitsune Fey Bloodline, Tattooed Sorcerer with all their feats pushed into making their enchantment spell DCs insane sure can be amusing to watch though.

Are rangers still on the better end of the good archers? I know they were pretty boss back in AD&D 2nd edition...if it matters, it seems like the top 3 enemy types I always run into in PFS play are humanoids, followed by undead, then demons.


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Alchemist bombers are quite effective at range, and super versatile.


Blaster caster ranged combatants are one of thefew times where sorcerors may be better than wizards as arcane casters, if you grab an appropriate bloodline for it. Arcanists with a bloodline work well also.


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Vexemrorium Iorvonith wrote:

So...after a PFS adventure module this afternoon which ended in a TPK...I am thinking about making something I have not played in a very long time...a ranged combatant.

What are some of the best options out there?

Archery builds (of which there are numerous options) are an obvious possibility.

Blaster oriented casters (though their limited spells per day could be a real hindrance).

Kineticist looks like a contender, not 100% on their mechanics though...only had the book they are in for a month, and have no experience with them.

Throwing builds don't really seem very viable, having to enchant multiple throwing weapons (even with a blink back belt) would be super costly at higher levels.

Gunslingers? They seem powerful, but also expensive to keep up with ammunition for anything beyond the simplest stuff.

I pretty much exclusively play PFS games right now, so no 3pp stuff, 20 point buy, only PFS legal stuff please.

Thanks,
Vex

If your goal is simply to do the most damage at a range, Archery is the best overall option. Its more simple and cost-effective than any of the other options (other than possibly kineticist cost-wise, as they don't need much).

That said, it might not be the best form of ranged combat to prevent TPKs. Treantmonk's suggested "God Wizardry" is a form of ranged combat which does more than damage to the enemy. Through summoning you effectively get free damage absorption as well as doing a fair bit of damage. In addition, battlefield control and buffing/debuffing wrecks enemy tactics and significantly reduce danger. It also takes care of limited spell slots because, if done well, it only takes 1 or 2 spells to change the fights, beyond which you can plink away with cantrips and crossbows (or even do nothing) while a summoned beatstick destroys the enemy, or a field of tentacles crushes them. See more here and here.. So I put forth wizard.

Scarab Sages

graystone wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:


This. Archery is good with many classes and many races.
Just remember it became less good with the magic bow FAQ/errata. Magic bows no longer do anything for DR except DR/magic.

It really doesn't matter at all, because any archer worth his or her salt would have clustered shots anyway.


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And cold iron arrows with silver/adamantine weapon blanch.


Imbicatus wrote:

{. . .}

Throwing builds can be competitive with archery builds with the weapon masters handbook thanks to ricochet toss, but it's even more feat intensive than archery and requires weapon training, so you are basically limited to fighters and molthuni arsenal chaplain warpriests.
{. . .}

Rangers should be pretty good for ranged combat builds, and actually has a Thrown Weapon(*) Combat Style. I haven't done a thorough study of it, but it looks decent.

(*)If you were looking for Hurled Weapon, you will miss it.

On a different but related note, up until the last couple of years, a lot of people used to recommend Zen Archer Monk.

I just checked Archives of Nethys, and as of the time of their last update (beginning of this month), both of the above options seem to be PFS legal.


What is the best Archer build is an on going debate.

Zen Archer (Qingong) - starts at level 3. Use PFS retrain rules to have high dex low wis at l1, then l2 you are probably not very good for a level until you get wis to +hit. Very good defences, especially as a dwarf. A lot of arrows even early on and Perfect Strike means your damage is predictable. So many bonus feats that you have a few to spare.

Warpriest - Competitive at any level. Needs Molthune to really shine. Being able to pick cleric spells to cover weaknesses in the party helps, as does spontaneous healing. This build spins up, doing more damage every round until combat ends.
Low skill points hurt.

Inquisitor - Judgement and Bane make for very nice nova. Spell selection is tough because usually buffing during combat isn't worth it. Monster Lore and high initiative prevent surprises from enemy abilities. There are some good domains out there.

Fighter - No direct experience but it generates high numbers. It seems the most boring choice though.

Ranger - Favored Enemy is very dependent in the kind of campaign. It loses some strength in PFS for sure. Animal Companion does keep you out if harms way a bit.

If you play an archer, have a good look at all the special arrows out there. You can solve a lot of problems with the right one, from durable adamantine arrows to pheromone arrows if you travel with animal companions, to grappling arrows for climbing.

I will second that alchemists are good and flexible at any level, and fun to play.

Scarab Sages

UnArcaneElection wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

{. . .}

Throwing builds can be competitive with archery builds with the weapon masters handbook thanks to ricochet toss, but it's even more feat intensive than archery and requires weapon training, so you are basically limited to fighters and molthuni arsenal chaplain warpriests.
{. . .}

Rangers should be pretty good for ranged combat builds, and actually has a Thrown Weapon(*) Combat Style. I haven't done a thorough study of it, but it looks decent.

(*)If you were looking for Hurled Weapon, you will miss it.

The Ranger and by extension the Slayer can be great at archery, but to be good at throwing you need ricochet toss, which requires either weapon training or wasting a feat on martial focus. Thanks to the combat style, rangers can afford it, but the wasted feats sets them back. As for the thrown weapon combat style, it's a trap. It doesn't give early access to improved precise shot, which is the main draw of a ranger.

Silver Crusade

While I know that Wizard is the king of the tier list (with other 9th level casters coming in just behind them), and can be absolutely game breakingly powerful with the proper planning...I really don't think they are the type of character I could really enjoy playing for an extended period of time. They remind me too much of Godmode video game cheats...a game is no fun if there is zero challenge or risk.

I find myself being drawn more into the tier 3 range characters..."Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate"

Archery focused builds and Kineticists have kind of peaked my interest. I have not played an archer character since AD&D 2nd edition, and archery characters seem to be a rarity in the local PFS crowd (haven't run into a single archery character in almost a year of playing)

Kineticist might just be a fun change of pace though, as it is a completely new class to me, and the mechanics look intriguing. With kineticists, do they get iterative attacks with their blasts at higher level, or are they always just 1 shot per round? Can they get extra attacks with feats like Rapid Shot, Multi-Shot, etc? Do physical blast kineticists have problems hitting, since they target full AC instead of touch? The earth element looks the most interesting to me, they seem to have the best defensive ability, and a good amount of utility related stuff (climb and burrow speeds, blindsense, ability to literally move mountains of earth around)

Silver Crusade

Are durable arrows legal in PFS? I thought I read somewhere that you couldn't have durable ammo in PFS games.


Imbicatus wrote:
graystone wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:


This. Archery is good with many classes and many races.
Just remember it became less good with the magic bow FAQ/errata. Magic bows no longer do anything for DR except DR/magic.
It really doesn't matter at all, because any archer worth his or her salt would have clustered shots anyway.

What do you say if it's a core only game? DR spanks you hard there.

_Ozy_ wrote:
And cold iron arrows with silver/adamantine weapon blanch.

Note how I said "less good" and not 'bad'? Clustered shots is good but now it's a requirement as soon as possible. Durable arrows of special materials work too with blanches. It just takes more work than before and is harder to do than just getting a +5 bow and being fine.

So I'll stand by that comment of "less good with the magic bow FAQ/errata". It certainly isn't as good or better than before the FAQ. I thought it would be important for someone thinking about using a projectile weapon to take the FAQ into account. I know I changed things around for my bolt ace after the FAQ.


Vexemrorium Iorvonith wrote:
Are durable arrows legal in PFS? I thought I read somewhere that you couldn't have durable ammo in PFS games.

From additional resources page: "Pathfinder Player Companion: Elves of Golarion

Equipment: clustershot, healer's sorrow, and sparkfly crystal arrow weapon qualities and alchemical archery items, except trip arrows, on pages 22-23 are legal for play".

Silver Crusade

Do you have a link to the FAQ/Errata you are referring to? So I can see what you guys are talking about?


Vexemrorium Iorvonith wrote:
Do you have a link to the FAQ/Errata you are referring to? So I can see what you guys are talking about?

Sorry. here FAQ


Imbicatus wrote:
graystone wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:


This. Archery is good with many classes and many races.
Just remember it became less good with the magic bow FAQ/errata. Magic bows no longer do anything for DR except DR/magic.
It really doesn't matter at all, because any archer worth his or her salt would have clustered shots anyway.

What if u play pfs core only

Silver Crusade

graystone wrote:
Vexemrorium Iorvonith wrote:
Are durable arrows legal in PFS? I thought I read somewhere that you couldn't have durable ammo in PFS games.

From additional resources page: "Pathfinder Player Companion: Elves of Golarion

Equipment: clustershot, healer's sorrow, and sparkfly crystal arrow weapon qualities and alchemical archery items, except trip arrows, on pages 22-23 are legal for play".

Ah, I searched the AR for durable, and didn't see it because it is under Alchemical items. So Durable arrows are 1gp each...would that make duable adamantine arrows 61gp each?

graystone wrote:
Vexemrorium Iorvonith wrote:
Do you have a link to the FAQ/Errata you are referring to? So I can see what you guys are talking about?
Sorry. here FAQ

Cool, thanks :)


Vexemrorium Iorvonith wrote:
How do the physical blast elements hold up? Going straight earth element looks pretty solid ;), but do they run into problems hitting at higher levels since they target normal AC instead of touch? This is for PFS, so top levels of play would only be level 11-12.

Not bad. Remember to max Elemental Overflow when you get it using your defence talent, and you can pick up a touch attack from 7th onward if you expand into fire or something rather than doubling up on earth.

Vexemrorium Iorvonith wrote:
Pink Dragon wrote:
Any spell caster with optimized save or suck spells.
Those have their limits though...limited spell slots per day, and a lot of stuff is just straight up immune to a lot of the save or suck spells...something like a Kitsune Fey Bloodline, Tattooed Sorcerer with all their feats pushed into making their enchantment spell DCs insane sure can be amusing to watch though.

Nothing's immune to all the save or sucks.

Vexemrorium Iorvonith wrote:

Are rangers still on the better end of the good archers? I know they were pretty boss back in AD&D 2nd edition...if it matters, it seems like the top 3 enemy types I always run into in PFS play are humanoids, followed by undead, then demons.

There's a 3rd level ranger spell, Instant Enemy, which helps, or several archetypes now which can bypass the enemy type problem - guide, fortune-finder, freebooter, poison darter, probably one or two more. That said the absolute best archers are inquisitors and Molthuni arsenal warpriests.


graystone wrote:
Vexemrorium Iorvonith wrote:
Do you have a link to the FAQ/Errata you are referring to? So I can see what you guys are talking about?
Sorry. here FAQ

Hmm, given that alignment transfers, and you should have the special material arrows from before your bow became +3 or +4, it's not really a big deal.

Yes, you're right, it's not 'better' post-FAQ, and it's good to know that you need the special arrows, but it's not really going to hinder any builds.

You don't even need durable arrows since blanches only last for one hit anyways.

Paizo Employee Developer

I was levelling this character when I clicked on this thread and I'd feel bad if I didn't share. Because who doesn't like bragging?

Archery will out-damage a thower. There are just far more and far better options enchanting, class features and iterative attacks. But Startoss Style can make a decent thrower. Combine with Sliding Axe Toss, Ricochet Toss and Greater Trip and you can get six attacks with a standard action, two per enemy, and only hurt the immersion of the game a little :D


Imbicatus wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

{. . .}

Throwing builds can be competitive with archery builds with the weapon masters handbook thanks to ricochet toss, but it's even more feat intensive than archery and requires weapon training, so you are basically limited to fighters and molthuni arsenal chaplain warpriests.
{. . .}

Rangers should be pretty good for ranged combat builds, and actually has a Thrown Weapon(*) Combat Style. I haven't done a thorough study of it, but it looks decent.

(*)If you were looking for Hurled Weapon, you will miss it.

The Ranger and by extension the Slayer can be great at archery, but to be good at throwing you need ricochet toss, which requires either weapon training or wasting a feat on martial focus. Thanks to the combat style, rangers can afford it, but the wasted feats sets them back. As for the thrown weapon combat style, it's a trap. It doesn't give early access to improved precise shot, which is the main draw of a ranger.

Went back to look do further study, and all of a sudden I just realized that the Archery Combat Style gets a LOT more choices of bonus feat (5 of them) at 6th level than all other Combat Styles (each gets only 2 choices of bonus feats at 6 level). What's up with that?

I guess technically you could make the Archery Combat Style work for a thrown weapon Ranger -- the 2nd level feats of Thrown Weapon Combat Style are all pretty easy for someone without this combat style to get, and the 10th level feats are in the Archery Combat Style anyway, and if you choose the strategy of pulling out a melee weapon (or, depending upon your type of thrown weapon, using it in melee) when you get into close combat, you don't really need to worry about the Thrown Weapon Combat Style 6th level feats, so go ahead and have at it with the Archery Combat Style feats.

Silver Crusade

If I am reading Elemental Overflow correctly, you get a max of +1 to hit and +2 damage for every 3 Kineticist levels, so +3 to hit and +6 damage at level 9? Then size bonuses to physical stats at level 6 and 11?

So as long as you keep your burn up you would almost be a full BAB class...just not for iterative attacks (which I am still not entirely sure if kineticists even need to worry about).

The double earth composite blast which you can make into cold iron, silver, or adamantium looks pretty nifty.

Are there any other ways to improve your accuracy as a kineticist? Other than raising you Dex and keeping up your Elemental Overflow?

Silver Crusade

Found the answer to the iterative attacks question...answer is no, they are a standard action, not an attack action, so no iterative attacks...and by extension, no rapid shot. *sadface*


_Ozy_ wrote:
You don't even need durable arrows since blanches only last for one hit anyways.

I suggested durable because there isn't a guarantee that refreshing ammo will be easy and it can save on room/weight/space if you have enough for 1 combat and can reuse them. Is it required? No, but I like to be prepared.

Silver Crusade

So, at 11th level...if I am doing my maths correctly...a physical Kinetic Blast would be doing 5d6+5+ConMod+6 Overflow (35ish on average, with a max of around 46?) a max of once per round.

If that is right...it seems a bit lackluster.

Or basically doubling that and taking burn of 11hp per point at level 11? Even if they gather power to make it a full round attack a composite blast would still do 1 point of burn right?


Infusion specialization reduces burn by 3 points at level 11, gather power by another 2 at the same level. You could use a metal composite blast with entangling infusion and kinetic blade perhaps - kinetic blade does allow iterative attacks & haste etc. Or perhaps you'd prefer metal blast, rare-metal infusion & extended range to keep you at a safe distance and to deal with DR. Switch rare-metal for magnetic if DR isn't a concern.

Silver Crusade

Ah, I missed the scaling infusion specialization and supercharge. That definitely helps, could be dropping impaling, entangling earth blasts every turn for no burn with a move action gather.

Composite blasts would always be a minimum of 22 non-lethal damage at level 11 though...ouch. No way to reduce that burn unttil level 16 :(


No, gather power covers the composite blast cost at level 11. Before then it can cover the cost of empower blast perhaps.

Also there's internal buffer for at least 1 point of burn/day from level 6.

Silver Crusade

Well...looks like reading wins again...blasts are wild talents, so supercharge and gather power work on the burn cost for those...infusion specialization is the only one limited purely to infusions.

So at level 11 you would have -3 from infusion specialization, and -2 from gather/supercharge as a move action. So you could drop composites with up to 3 burn worth of infusions, or maximized normal blasts with 3 points of infusion, or empowered normal blasts with 4 points of infusions, all day long.

Things are looking up for the Kineticist.


Actually gather power applies only to "blast wild talents". Not to normal wild talents sadly.

Also, one mistake by me above - when using kinetic blade you usually won't want to gather power, so that you can make a full attack. That means kinetic blade + 2 burn points worth of infusions at level 11 as a regular thing.

Silver Crusade

Not super interested in kinetic blade for a range based character. If I were looking for a melee kineticist though, it would be right up front.

Conveniently, all the earth related, non-blast wild talents I am looking at for my build are 0 burn.

Kinetic Cover, Earth Climb, *Earth Child, Tremorsense, Shift Earth, Earth Glide, Enduring Earth, and Ride the Blast.

*I know I will need the chronicle sheet for S07-13 Captive in Crystal for this one, but I can make arrangements to run it with my local VL/VC.

For Infusions, I am looking at Extended Range, Pushing, Entangling, Rare-Metal, Impale and Wall.

Only thing I am running into is what feat to take at level 11. I am looking at Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus: Kinetic Blast, Toughness, and Bolstered Resilience for my 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9 respectively...not sure what to slot in for 11. Any suggestions?


Iron Will, definitely, earlier...Expanded Metakinesis may be useful...

Improved Initiative may be useful...

Improved Unarmed Strike + Snake Style to utilize your Swift/Immediate action;

Alternatively, pick Dodge + Weapon Trick(One-Handed) & use a spiked gauntlet/Dwarven Boulder Helm...


I wouldn't bother with expanded metakinesis - going earth/earth means you won't need piercing spell, ectoplasmic is too situational as are merciful & disruptive and furious is basically useless to you.

If your earth kineticist is a dwarf as many seem to be then Steel Soul may be useful. If you're really worried about hitting at high levels then Bullseye Shot is possible. Barroom Brawler gives you 1/day martial flexibility. Delay Blast is handy if you can prepare the battlefield at all. Iron Will could be handy for non-dwarves.

A note on other races - an oread effectively gets Kinetic Invocation free which allows them to select Slowing Mud as a 4th level wild talent; this looks fairly useful even at the cost of a burn, tho' for non-oreads a feat, a wild talent and burn seems too much to me. Humans being able to get point blank & precise shot at level 1 will make levels 1-2 a lot easier on you, and having an extra feat later could let you get shield focus & unhindering shield perhaps.

Silver Crusade

I am leaning towards making it a half-orc and taking the Sacred Tattoo/Fates Favored combo for +2 to all my saves, which makes Iron Will a lot less necessary.

Improved Initiative is always nice...though taking it at level 11 seems a little late to really be useful.

IUS, Snake Style, Dodge and Weapon trick...I plan on staying as far from the melee as I can manage, so those would be a bit wasted...maybe dodge, if I find myself getting hit very often.

I could already kind of simulate slowing mud with a combo of either wall or impale + entangling infusions.

Bullseye Shot sounds like it might be helpful if I run into something I am having a hard time hitting. I'll pencil that in for now, unless I hear of something better :)


Vexemrorium Iorvonith wrote:
I am leaning towards making it a half-orc and taking the Sacred Tattoo/Fates Favored combo for +2 to all my saves, which makes Iron Will a lot less necessary.

I try to leverage more out of Fates Favored myself. An idea could be an Archaeologist bard. You get more out of Archaeologist’s Luck and with a Tuned Bowstring you can pretty much use luck all day. You'd have less feats but you get spells instead.

Scarab Sages

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Archer? Bah!

*spits on ground

Renew the rock!

Silver Crusade

I dunno, turning a +1 to all my saves into a +2 for a single trait (and an additional +1 to any other luck bonus I end up with from spells or items) is already pretty strong...it isn't as strong as the mandatory class feature it becomes for Archaeologist Bards of Warpriests...but it is still pretty tough to beat as far as traits go. It almost feels silly to make a half-orc without it, unless you end up at 0hp a lot and Ferocity becomes actually becomes useful.

I play a lot of rogue-ish characters already, so the archeo-bard doesn't really appeal to me right now. It is an awesome class though. That Tuned Bowstring is pretty awesome...though 18k would make it a pretty late game PFS acquisition.

Now I need to decide on stat block...20pt buy gives me a few options.

Dex and Con are primaries for kineticists, but which is more important...originally I was thinking Con, since I was figuring on having to take more burn more often to keep up with the party...now I am not sure, since I learned the rules for reducing burn.

I was originally thinking 10, 15, 19(17+2 racial), 10, 12, 8...

Now I am thinking maybe swap the Dex/Con and doing 10, 19(17+2 racial), 15, 10, 12, 8...

Or maybe just move the racial modifier and having 10, 17(15+2 racial), 17, 10, 12, 8...

The levels 4 and 8 stat boosts would obviously go into getting those to round numbers, the level 12 stat wouldn't really matter as it comes when the character is basically retired.

Any thoughts?

Silver Crusade

Cao Phen wrote:

Archer? Bah!

*spits on ground

Renew the rock!

I too shall throw rocks...with my brain :)


Vexemrorium Iorvonith wrote:
18k would make it a pretty late game PFS acquisition.

AH, I forgot this was PFS.


Dex for more accuracy/AC/initiative or Con to be able to take more burn. Neither's better, it's just which you prefer. If you're thinking of using earth glide to sneak into places then dex might be handy perhaps. If you're more thinking of using it for the pop-up cannon effect then that doesn't apply obviously.

BTW Earth Child looks like an unimpressive talent.Are you sure you wouldn't prefer Elemental Whispers or something?

Scarab Sages

Personally, I feel that gnomes/halflings make perfect kineticists if you're going that route. Small size gives a +1 to hit, and AC, your damage isn't reduced for size, and they have bonuses to one of your key stats. I prefer air to earth, but every element is viable.

Silver Crusade

Earth Child is awesome. It would basically transform the character into a half-orc version of an Oread. I would gain Crystalline Form(+2AC against rays, and deflect rays 1/day), Energy Resist Acid/5, Magic Stone 1/day, and I would become an Outsider[Native] instead of a Humanoid[Human/Orc], while still retaining all my original racial traits and stat bonuses, but my move speed would drop to 20' from 30' (Which I could make up for with boots of striding or something, if necessary).

This would effectively make me immune to Charm/Dominate person, and some other mind effects (they only work on humanoids), plus it is thematically really cool...I become so in tune with the earth, that I turn into living crystal.


Vexemrorium Iorvonith wrote:

Not super interested in kinetic blade for a range based character. If I were looking for a melee kineticist though, it would be right up front.

Conveniently, all the earth related, non-blast wild talents I am looking at for my build are 0 burn.

Kinetic Cover, Earth Climb, *Earth Child, Tremorsense, Shift Earth, Earth Glide, Enduring Earth, and Ride the Blast.

*I know I will need the chronicle sheet for S07-13 Captive in Crystal for this one, but I can make arrangements to run it with my local VL/VC.

For Infusions, I am looking at Extended Range, Pushing, Entangling, Rare-Metal, Impale and Wall.

Only thing I am running into is what feat to take at level 11. I am looking at Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus: Kinetic Blast, Toughness, and Bolstered Resilience for my 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9 respectively...not sure what to slot in for 11. Any suggestions

I personally think toughness is a waste of a feat, especially that late. I used to think it was good but after running it on a kineticist I saw no difference. By that point in your game you should have a crapton of CON and the feat is just very unnoticeable by then. Improved Initiative would be a good choice, as could Extra Wild Talent if there were some early game utility talents or infusions you couldn't get earlier. Delay Blast is one that doesn't come up often that may be usable.

Silver Crusade

I think I am going to go with the 19 dex, 15 con stat array to start off with, pushing them to 20/16 with level boosts. Toughness will probably be a bit more beneficial with those stats.

1hp per level does seem a bit weak for a feat though...11 HP at level 11...that would negate 1 point of burn...or part of a single hit.

I'll have to look into a few more feat options.

Improved Init is a maybe...I'll have pretty good Dex, so I'll probably be going high in the combat order anyways.

Anything else out there feat wise that might improve my accuracy or damage?


Toughness is front-loaded -- you get the 1st 3 hit points all at 1st level, so that helps when you are starting out. After your 1st 3 levels, it is like having +2 Constitution for the purpose of hit point calculation (so Toughness isn't as good if you take it after 1st level). Note that if you are a Dwarf, you can trade out Hardy (unfortunately meaning no Steel Soul later on) in exchange for Unstoppable, which gets you Toughness as a bonus feat, and +1 on Fortitude Saves (only half the bonus of Hardy, but applicable to all Fortitude Saves, not just poison, spells, and spell-like abilities -- basically it gives you half of Great Fortitude and even stacks with that, or to think of it another way it gives you the other almost half of what +2 Constitution would have given you that Toughness doesn't give you). Now, if you did this instead of spending the point buy points for actual +2 Constitution, you miss out on 1 point of damage and 1 point of Save DC on your Kineticist's Blasts, but on the other hand, at very high Constitutions, spending more points on it in the point buy gets really inefficient, so you can save the point buy points you free up for Dexterity, thus making up for the loss of damage and Save DC per attack by becoming more likely to hit (and less likely to be hit, and by getting slightly better Initiative). Yeah, Dwarves can be pretty awesome Kineticists (as well as many other things) . . . .

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