Season 9 Speculation


Pathfinder Society

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Sovereign Court 5/5 5/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32 aka Netopalis

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The Shadow Lodge resonated with a lot of players in ways that the Grand Lodge does not. Personally, as a player that started in Season 4, I learned about the Shadow Lodge long before I really learned about Grandmaster Torch and his history. The Shadow Lodge was described as a union and as a sort of secret society. Given that I (arguably) failed two of my first four sessions, the idea seemed to hold a lot of merit. Unfortunately, the fact that the Grand Lodge is the default faction means that it's really hard to root for them. A big part of the Shadow Lodge ideal was holding Venture Captains accountable for poor choices in mission assignments. I don't feel like the Grand Lodge can really accomplish that mission, given that they're headed by Ambrus Valsin.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Apart from a couple of "transporter accidents", is leadership really treating rank and file pathfinders all that badly after season 4? I got the impression a lot of the really stupid antics in earlier seasons were needed to justify the "union" plotline in the first place.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland— Baltimore aka Qstor

I'm hoping that Torch makes an appearance in Season 9 but Compton or Linda didn't respond in my other thread on the subject.

Silver Crusade

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Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Apart from a couple of "transporter accidents", is leadership really treating rank and file pathfinders all that badly after season 4?

Have you played 7-00 The Sky Key Solution? The opening mission briefing of that one is "Welcome to the biggest collection of Pathfinders we've ever had in one place. We have the worst idea in history for what to do with you while you're here."

1/5 5/5

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Fromper wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Apart from a couple of "transporter accidents", is leadership really treating rank and file pathfinders all that badly after season 4?
Have you played 7-00 The Sky Key Solution? The opening mission briefing of that one is "Welcome to the biggest collection of Pathfinders we've ever had in one place. We have the worst idea in history for what to do with you while you're here."

Or even 8-00 Cosmic Captive...

Paraphrased Imagine Dr. Hubert J. Farnsworth saying this, and you won't be able to get it out of your head. "GREAT NEWS, Pathfinders! We've managed to discover a way to go to a horrible place where you can die horribly because we're curious about what is there!"

5/5 5/55/55/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Central Europe aka GreyYeti

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Fromper wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Apart from a couple of "transporter accidents", is leadership really treating rank and file pathfinders all that badly after season 4?
Have you played 7-00 The Sky Key Solution? The opening mission briefing of that one is "Welcome to the biggest collection of Pathfinders we've ever had in one place. We have the worst idea in history for what to do with you while you're here."

I have played 7-00. And i would rather call it "we have this rare opportunity to get a unique insight into history and therefore we need every person available." And then everything went according to plan until we got attacked by a group that noone has considered a threat until that time.

And i have some very fond memories of that scenario:

Spoiler:
Talking face to face with an Azlanti general, being a first hand wittness of earthfall and defeating the final boss by convinving her of her errors

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Or even 8-00 Cosmic Captive...

Paraphrased Imagine Dr. Hubert J. Farnsworth saying this, and you won't be able to get it out of your head. "GREAT NEWS, Pathfinders! We've managed to discover a way to go to a horrible place where you can die horribly because we're curious about what is there!"

And the problems in 7-00 lead us directly to 8-00. "Since last time we had so much problems we added a lot of extra security (which apparently worked) and since we know where we are sending you, we are giving each of you a personal survival package so you make it back in one piece"

1/5 5/5

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Nils Janson wrote:


And the problems in 7-00 lead us directly to 8-00. "Since last time we had so much problems we added a lot of extra security (which apparently worked) and since we know where we are sending you, we are giving each of you a personal survival package so you make it back in one piece"

...and may whatever deities are followed guard the souls of those who are too low level to have enough Prestige for the means to get the Premium Package...

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Apart from a couple of "transporter accidents", is leadership really treating rank and file pathfinders all that badly after season 4? I got the impression a lot of the really stupid antics in earlier seasons were needed to justify the "union" plotline in the first place.

So not sure if this official or not but the Pathfinder Society may have committed mass murder by thinking it's a good idea to send cadets into a Bonekeep tier dungeon of their creation.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Nils Janson wrote:


And the problems in 7-00 lead us directly to 8-00. "Since last time we had so much problems we added a lot of extra security (which apparently worked) and since we know where we are sending you, we are giving each of you a personal survival package so you make it back in one piece"
...and may whatever deities are followed guard the souls of those who are too low level to have enough Prestige for the means to get the Premium Package...

The thing the premium package protected you from was only a real threat at the 10-11 tier, and a bit of an annoying sting at the 7-8 tier. In some encounters. When playing the slot 0 we concluded that it was actually a waste of PP at lower tiers.

1/5 5/5

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Lau Bannenberg wrote:


The thing the premium package protected you from was only a real threat at the 10-11 tier, and a bit of an annoying sting at the 7-8 tier. In some encounters. When playing the slot 0 we concluded that it was actually a waste of PP at lower tiers.

It also protected poor GM brains from frying out on yet another thing with all the things going on.


So all the currently available races(core and otherwise) are going to stay for this season?

Sovereign Court 3/5

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Correct. No changes are going to be made to allowed races.

Silver Crusade

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Nils Janson wrote:
Fromper wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Apart from a couple of "transporter accidents", is leadership really treating rank and file pathfinders all that badly after season 4?
Have you played 7-00 The Sky Key Solution? The opening mission briefing of that one is "Welcome to the biggest collection of Pathfinders we've ever had in one place. We have the worst idea in history for what to do with you while you're here."

I have played 7-00. And i would rather call it "we have this rare opportunity to get a unique insight into history and therefore we need every person available." And then everything went according to plan until we got attacked by a group that noone has considered a threat until that time.

And i have some very fond memories of that scenario:
** spoiler omitted **

I have some very fond memories of that one, too. I'm not saying it wasn't a fun adventure. I'm just saying it was another typical case of the game world Society sending in agents while severely underestimating the risk.

Playing it at Gen Con was fun. GMing it at my local store with only 5 tables was EPIC.

7-00 Sky Key Solution:
As I said, we had only 5 tables (the minimum for that adventure). I was GMing subtier 1-2.

In the final encounter, the adventure assumes that SOMEBODY will confront the BBEG. I don't remember exactly how it works, but I think you needed a certain percentage of tables to succeed against her, or else everyone at every table dies in Starfall. With only 5 tables, that means 1 table had to do it, which shouldn't be that difficult.

When we played it, though, the only high tier table that could fight her never went in. They decided to do other things on the surface instead of going underground to her lair. Since my group had succeeded at a lot of the earlier tasks by talking to the BBEG's minions instead of killing them, we were the one and only group that could go in without being attacked (and almost certainly killed, since only the highest table stood a chance) on sight.

As we were running low on time, the overseer told me that the high tier table hadn't gone in. So my subtier 1-2 group is fighting her clones in the outer chamber, supposedly clearing the way for "more experienced" Pathfinders to go in and confront her, and I told them time was running short and no experienced Pathfinders had shown up yet. They decided to go in.

The group of level 1 and 2 PCs, a couple of them new to Society play, went in and confronted the subtier 7-8 BBEG (without the extra minions she gets at 10-11). As I said, they'd been friendly earlier, so she didn't attack immediately. They tried to convince her to back down, and it was really close, with them failing just enough rolls that if they failed one more, she'd attack. But they managed to get just enough successes, without too many failures (I think I may have donated my shirt reroll at one point), that they managed to talk her into backing down.

So the level 1-2 group prevented an epic 5 table TPK by talking down the BBEG who could have slaughtered them effortlessly. Definitely one of my most memorable PFS experiences.

1/5 5/5

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Fromper wrote:
Playing it at Gen Con was fun. GMing it at my local store with only 5 tables was EPIC.

Similar thing happened this past weekend at PCC with Blood Under Absalom, in some ways.

Sovereign Court 3/5

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Fromper wrote:

I have some very fond memories of that one, too. I'm not saying it wasn't a fun adventure. I'm just saying it was another typical case of the game world Society sending in agents while severely underestimating the risk.

Playing it at Gen Con was fun. GMing it at my local store with only 5 tables was EPIC.
** spoiler omitted **...

Sky Key Solution:
Quote:
In the final encounter, the adventure assumes that SOMEBODY will confront the BBEG. I don't remember exactly how it works, but I think you needed a certain percentage of tables to succeed against her, or else everyone at every table dies in Starfall. With only 5 tables, that means 1 table had to do it, which shouldn't be that difficult.

No matter the size of the event, you only ever need one table to face and either defeat or negotiate with Lady Arodeth. I'm surprised it came down to the 1-2s, but glad it worked out for you.

5/5 Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht aka Quentin Coldwater

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Apart from a couple of "transporter accidents", is leadership really treating rank and file pathfinders all that badly after season 4? I got the impression a lot of the really stupid antics in earlier seasons were needed to justify the "union" plotline in the first place.

I GMed a season 2 scenario (so while Shadow Lodge was active, not after) that basically said, "there's something time-sensitive going on, so be sure to do it ASAP. Also, we're not going to teleport you, so good luck." You have to pay for your own damn Teleport, otherwise the scenario is over before you've rolled a single die. Reviews aren't too kind about that.

1/5

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KingOfAnything wrote:
Hasn't the Grand Lodge faction picked up a lot of slack from the union side of the Shadow Lodge? One of their faction objectives is "Participate in an adventure that directly assists an NPC Pathfinder agent or agent of an allied organization, such as by mounting a rescue, recovering an important object, or defending that group’s resources and reputation."

Problem is the Shadow Lodge main focus was about stopping the Decemvirate and the "powers that be" from mistreating/sacrificing pathfinders for their own goals and petty politics. The Grand Lodge is the faction beholden to the Decemvirate and to the "powers that be".

For a Shadow Lodger it should be extremely difficult to accept the Grand Lodge as their new home since it's basically the epitome of what they despised.


KingOfAnything wrote:
Correct. No changes are going to be made to allowed races.

Thanks.

Somewhat disappointing.

Sovereign Court 3/5

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Rogar Valertis wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Hasn't the Grand Lodge faction picked up a lot of slack from the union side of the Shadow Lodge? One of their faction objectives is "Participate in an adventure that directly assists an NPC Pathfinder agent or agent of an allied organization, such as by mounting a rescue, recovering an important object, or defending that group’s resources and reputation."

Problem is the Shadow Lodge main focus was about stopping the Decemvirate and the "powers that be" from mistreating/sacrificing pathfinders for their own goals and petty politics. The Grand Lodge is the faction beholden to the Decemvirate and to the "powers that be".

For a Shadow Lodger it should be extremely difficult to accept the Grand Lodge as their new home since it's basically the epitome of what they despised.

I suppose.

I guess I think those Shadow Lodgers are being silly for holding a grudge rather than accepting that they've won a battle, if not the war. You can be far more effective working from within.

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32 aka Netopalis

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KingOfAnything wrote:


I guess I think those Shadow Lodgers are being silly for holding a grudge rather than accepting that they've won a battle, if not the war. You can be far more effective working from within.

Part of the raw feelings involved also stem from the way that the faction was treated in Rivalry's End. While the Lantern Lodge got this great ending scenario that showed that they had accomplished their goals...the Shadow Lodge PCs ended up getting told that they had been played the fools and that they were foolish for working to protect their fellows all along. Had Rivalry's End not been such a massive middle finger to Shadow Lodge PCs, you'd not hear nearly as much griping about the end of the faction.

1/5

As for other, more current factions...

Season 8 just didn't feel like it had anything to do with factions (and I've played most of it.)
*No mouldering libraries with ancient lore (in the scope of the adventure)
*Zarta didn't ask us to get a mystic doodad for study (other than the things associated with the season metaplot)
*There are no slaver camps to raid - the closest I've seen was 08-03, which is a decent Liberty's Edge scenario.
*al'Hakam hasn't even shown up, as far as I can tell
*No real "do good for the sake of doing good" hooks
*No nobles or political intrigue, especially on the material plane
*Grand Lodge ends up having the most compatible missions, I think. Mostly of the form "hey, could you go prove to these guys that we're not all murderhobos?"

Season 7 at least had Bid for Alabastrine for the Exchange, a bunch of Cheliax stuff for DA, Ancient's Anguish for Scarab Sages, etc.

Silver Crusade

Well, we did have a very fun Sczarni faction mission in Forged in Flame 1.

But I agree that there wasn't much emphasis on the factions this year.

The Exchange

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I actually thought they were going to radically reform factions if not drop them entirely this season. "Factions' Favor" surprised me. Without there being faction missions for every faction in each scenario it felt alienating that some people had something extra to do and most didn't every single adventure.

With the war theme I thought it be more a "United Pathfinder Society" this season instead of doubling down on factions which I think are simply a relic of the older season scenarios.

1/5

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I like the idea of factions. Honestly, I liked the old faction missions (even though they were often implemented badly and took up table time.)

Hopefully the Exchange will more fully embrace their Sczarni half in season 9 - my lockpicker/trapfinder is finding the faction to be a lot less fitting than originally advertised.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 Venture-Captain, Texas—Austin aka SetonAlandel

The Worldwound Campaign is my favorite season, and the Society getting dragged into a War of the Lions feels ripe for non-combat scenarios. Could see a lot of involvement for each faction to step out and shine again, instead of feeling relegated to checking boxes on faction cards.

Grand Lodge 5/5 5/5

Lemartes wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Correct. No changes are going to be made to allowed races.

Thanks.

Somewhat disappointing.

Given that races were previously changed at the beginnings of seasons 4, 6, and 8, I wouldn't expect another shake-up till season 10.

The Exchange 1/5 5/5

Fromper wrote:

Well, we did have a very fun Sczarni faction mission in Forged in Flame 1.

But I agree that there wasn't much emphasis on the factions this year.

"Well, provided one doesn't try to 'bridge the Sczarni/Qadira Exchange Gap' and get hosed for doing that..."

Seriously no provision for Intimidating/blustering one, taking the 'middle road' on a second, and Schmoozing/Professioning a third??

Sovereign Court 3/5 Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Toronto aka crashcanuck

shaventalz wrote:


*No nobles or political intrigue, especially on the material plane

This one I have to disagree with, my Sovereign Court Inquisitor has done a lot of work recruiting other nobles, esp extra-planar ones.


Arutema wrote:
Lemartes wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:
Correct. No changes are going to be made to allowed races.

Thanks.

Somewhat disappointing.

Given that races were previously changed at the beginnings of seasons 4, 6, and 8, I wouldn't expect another shake-up till season 10.

Oh didn't know that. Thanks.


shaventalz wrote:

*No mouldering libraries with ancient lore (in the scope of the adventure)

*No nobles or political intrigue, especially on the material plane

Season 7 at least had Bid for Alabastrine for the Exchange

You must not have played the season 8 Tyranny of Winds trilogy, then.

Spoiler:
The trilogy not only has a library, it has 2 in a single scenario, AND one of the books can be "interviewed," AND another part of the trilogy has an improved version of the Bid for Alabastrine social encounter.
Scarab Sages 5/5

I would not say improved, rather simplified to remove most of the actual need for interaction. I like Bid better.

Dark Archive 4/5

I would second preferring the social encounter in Bid to Tyranny. I haven't run it but I can imagine some of the difference is that in Bid the extended encounter is the scenario vs. only being a single encounter to get some info in Tyranny.

Shadow Lodge

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Fromper wrote:

Ummm... no. Those of us who want the Shadow Lodge back don't want Grandmaster Torch back.

We want the Pathfinder Union, whose top goal is to look out for our fellow Pathfinders, and hold the Decemvirate accountable for their actions.

The Hell!?!?!?

Those of us that want the Shadow Lodge back also want the real Torch back too.

Shadow Lodge

Andrew Shumate wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:


I guess I think those Shadow Lodgers are being silly for holding a grudge rather than accepting that they've won a battle, if not the war. You can be far more effective working from within.
Part of the raw feelings involved also stem from the way that the faction was treated in Rivalry's End. While the Lantern Lodge got this great ending scenario that showed that they had accomplished their goals...the Shadow Lodge PCs ended up getting told that they had been played the fools and that they were foolish for working to protect their fellows all along. Had Rivalry's End not been such a massive middle finger to Shadow Lodge PCs, you'd not hear nearly as much griping about the end of the faction.

They really need to both retire <ban> that scenario and write it out of existence. Worsf scenario ever.

1/5 5/5

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DM Beckett wrote:


They really need to both retire <ban> that scenario and write it out of existence. Worsf scenario ever.

On the advice of a few of my PFS 'mentors' I am *not* playing that scenario because it apparently takes liberties and does things to NPCs and plot that are at best unwholesome, at worst obscene.

This is based on the assessment of folks whose opinions I trust.

Silver Crusade

pretty sure both the lantern lodge and shadow lodge scenarios are not playable anymore for PFS officially. I thought when they released at paziocon they had to be played by gencon and the new release of the players guide finalized the changeover and removal of the factions.

As much as I don't care for torch, I did not really get a suckers vibe for shadow lodge. I got more of a torch decided to up the stakes on the decimiverate. That still didn't stop my PC from trying to kill him as he betrayed the society and ran.

Grand Lodge 4/5

samerandomhero wrote:
pretty sure both the lantern lodge and shadow lodge scenarios are not playable anymore for PFS officially. I thought when they released at paziocon they had to be played by gencon and the new release of the players guide finalized the changeover and removal of the factions.

They're standard scenarios and can still run. All Lantern Lodge and Shadow Lodge characters must have changed to a current faction, so the boons for members of those factions aren't available.

Silver Crusade

ah ok ty :)

Scarab Sages 5/5

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samerandomhero wrote:

pretty sure both the lantern lodge and shadow lodge scenarios are not playable anymore for PFS officially. I thought when they released at paziocon they had to be played by gencon and the new release of the players guide finalized the changeover and removal of the factions.

As much as I don't care for torch, I did not really get a suckers vibe for shadow lodge. I got more of a torch decided to up the stakes on the decimiverate. That still didn't stop my PC from trying to kill him as he betrayed the society and ran.

I rather like Torchie...

And my response to his...

spoilers for Rivilrys End:

GMT says:“My endless thanks to each of you, Pathfinders, for your loyal service.”
To any Shadow Lodge faction PCs, he adds, “And particular thanks to you, for trusting in me and diligently helping me burrow my way back into the good graces of the Decemvirate.”
Without pausing he concludes, “But now I’ve finally got something to hold over the Decemvirate, so I’m striking out on my own.”

Some of the players seemed to think this leads to "... We'd better take him down!" ? What? I really do not understand this view.... Is the Pathfinder Society one of those organizations that you can't just "walk away from"? Like the Mafia or the Iluminati or something? "What, you think we can just let you walk away? Knowing what you know? The only way out of this organization is in a body bag...."

Not me. My response was "can I get invited to the retirement dinner?"

I hope to encounter Torchie at some future time, and look forward to aiding him when we meet again...

Katisha has been "carrying a torch for GMT" from the first time she met him (in First Steps part III).

when I ran this, upon hearing that last line of his speach, one of my players commented that the Decemvirate must have information on Torch that was compelling him to work for the PFS (and the Decemvirate) when he clearly didn't want to. And now he had something on them and he could retire and move on with other things and they could not touch him.

Looks like a blackmail victim slips away... disappearing to some far corner of the world,

But what happens when next we see him? This is the scenario where the Decemvirate sends more flunkies to go impose on him again - "hay! we know you sell information and all, how about you give us some more for free? Like you used to do before you had 'something to hold over the Decemvirate' I mean, we don't want to actually PAY for it, not gold or anything like that." And when he turns them down, they are instructed to "remind him of ....". That's going to push him back in line... Blackmail the victim again...


Response to spoiler:
Some people took offence to "thanks for being pawns in my personal vendetta, and being taken in by my lies because you care about other people. I don't actually give a damn about any of you, so I'm off, and you can face any repercussions on your own"

Scarab Sages 5/5

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Andy Brown wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Sorry, didn't hear that in his speach. Did hear a Faction Head actually thank me - the only one ever to have done that.

But I guess a lot of it comes from the Judge running the NPC... and there is a lot of them that really don't like Torchie.... so they run him in a way to build hatred in the players.

Shadow Lodge

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

On the advice of a few of my PFS 'mentors' I am *not* playing that scenario because it apparently takes liberties and does things to NPCs and plot that are at best unwholesome, at worst obscene.

This is based on the assessment of folks whose opinions I trust.

Spoiler:
This is largely true. The scenario involves a lot of things that essentially makes the PCs bystanders as things happen. The PCs essentially track down "the Spider", an old threat that has plagued them for a season and turn her over to the Pathfinder Society (Torch), who then has her whisper the final names of thee Ten in his ear, (the PCs can not hear it). Then he snaps her neck, killing her, (after the PCs went through everything to bring her in alive), whirls around and tells the PCs, finally, I got what I wanted, screw off idiots. If there are any Shadow Lodge PCs, he essentially turns to them specifically so he can figuratively flip them off personally, crushes the Spider's skull so they party can't even Raise or Speak with Dead her, (huh), and teleports away. (All this happens in the Surprise Round, and if anyone beats something like a 40ish, they get a single action after all of this, but before he teleports away.

-
He gets up off his throne, (yep), and orders his minions to attack the party, and literally teleports away. Up to this point, he has been written to be misusing a spell to give him insane bonuses, but the spell only works in some circumstances. The final conclusion is that The Grand Lodge gives the Shadow Lodge a big speech about how they where wrong and stupid the whole time, and then "accepts them back into the fold, even after they, the PLAYERS made the huge mistake of liking a concept." WTF!!!
-
The way that the author treated GMT in this one was simply ridiculous. They took an NPC that a lot of folks liked and did the worst Heel/Toe Twist ever that is bad fan-fiction worthy, to the point that it was just beyond the realm of believability. Why would an individual that had literally just developed a loyal army, a massive network of spies and allies, etc. . . simply give that up at the drop of a hat, over a bit of information that very well might be false, just so that he can twist his mustache and laugh evilly before escaping. It makes no sense whatsoever, and it's purposefully written to prevent PCs from doing anything meaningful and to make the Player's angry and walk away miserable. All because someone personally disliked GMT.
-
It was partially forgiven, because a lot of folks assumed that it wasn't the real end, that the entire thing was a dramatic set up, and that the NPC they had encountered was a Doppelganger or something, and then nothing else happened. It was just left to sit there and stew.

1/5 5/5

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Just sayin'...

Subversive memetic foundation GO!:
If in no tub he sit, he ain't legit!

Shadow Lodge

Katisha wrote:
Andy Brown wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Sorry, didn't hear that in his speach. Did hear a Faction Head actually thank me - the only one ever to have done that.

But I guess a lot of it comes from the Judge running the NPC... and there is a lot of them that really don't like Torchie.... so they run him in a way to build hatred in the players.

This is largely true, and most of them do not like him because either they are using metagame knowledge from prior scenario's he is in, or from that very same issue where when someone else ran him, he was presented inappropriately, or didn't just give the PCs stuff for free because they are members of the PFS.

The major issue with his final speech is that it's written to be very sarcastic and with a high degree of insinuation. He is not thanking them for their work, he is insulting them for doing all the dirty work for him because they are idiots,

spoilery stuff:
which itself is stupid, because if he just got what he has been after for a few decades, why burn every single bridge he has instead of simply hiding the fact he is betraying the society (something that spell actually would help out with!!!) and after he is alone, pack up his bags and jump ship.

Shadow Lodge

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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


Just sayin'...

** spoiler omitted **

This, along with how utterly out of character he was presented, and how horrific the PFS/Grand Lodge was written at the end, and how non-sense his actions are in destroying his own resources are what I was referring to with the idea that a lot of folks felt it was a dramatic build up for something else, that just never came about.

The idea was that it was a doppelganger that the Grand Lodge used to ruin GMT's power base and reputation within the Society because he was making the VC's look like idiots and showing them up at their own job. But, then it didn't go anywhere.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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Bad scenario is bad. Hopefully we don't see a repeat of that mistake in the future.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
Bad scenario is bad. Hopefully we don't see a repeat of that mistake in the future.

Writing an actual ending would help....

Scarab Sages 5/5

DM Beckett wrote:
Katisha wrote:
Andy Brown wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Sorry, didn't hear that in his speach. Did hear a Faction Head actually thank me - the only one ever to have done that.

But I guess a lot of it comes from the Judge running the NPC... and there is a lot of them that really don't like Torchie.... so they run him in a way to build hatred in the players.

This is largely true, and most of them do not like him because either they are using metagame knowledge from prior scenario's he is in, or from that very same issue where when someone else ran him, he was presented inappropriately, or didn't just give the PCs stuff for free because they are members of the PFS.

The major issue with his final speech is that it's written to be very sarcastic and with a high degree of insinuation. He is not thanking them for their work, he is insulting them for doing all the dirty work for him because they are idiots, ** spoiler omitted **

But his final speech is only sarcastic if it is potraied that way by the judge. I take it as strait up. And with no degree of insinuation.

So... people "know" he is a jerk because of what he DOESN'T say - just what they think he ment, because of the way the judge said it. Riiiight....

1/5 5/5

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Katisha wrote:


But his final speech is only sarcastic if it is potraied that way by the judge. I take it as strait up. And with no degree of insinuation.

So... people "know" he is a jerk because of what he DOESN'T say - just what they think he ment, because of the way the judge said it. Riiiight....

It is *very* easy for GM personal bias to bleed into characterization.

VERY easy.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Utah—Lehi

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My perspective is that from season 4 and after, but I've never seen the Shadow Lodge actually live up to their ideals. So for me it is a bit hard to see why people think they are missing anything. I'll make an effort anyway.

As far as I can tell, Shadow Lodge players got faction missions starting in season 3. This is after the other-Shadow Lodge went all Murder-Death-Kill on the Society, and for existing players it must have felt like the faction was reforming itself. If there is any indication that the Shadow Lodge ever did care about the Society, it exists in those faction missions. I'm not aware of any actual scenarios that ever displayed the Shadow Lodge doing its work.

By the end of season 4, however, Grandmaster Torch went crazy on the Society and the faction missions were no longer published.

From the perspective of a season 3 player:
* Shadow Lodge went completely crazy in season 2. There is nothing good about what they were trying to do.
* I joined the Shadow Lodge in season 3 and we did a lot of good work keeping the Decemvirate in check.
* Scenario writers went bonkers on me in season 4 and my faction leader betrayed the Society.
* My basic idea of the Shadow Lodge plotline is Bad -> Good -> Betrayed.

From the perspective of a post-season 4 player:
* Shadow Lodge went completely crazy in season 2. There is nothing good about what they were trying to do.
* I only play the old faction missions if the GM decides to include them (rarely if ever) and I'm not in the Shadow Lodge, so I don't see them doing anything worthwhile.
* I can barely tell the difference between the very small time period when the Shadow Lodge was an actual thing for players and the smaller but more prominent period when the Shadow Lodge was trying to kill us.
* Even if I do see the Shadow Lodge's efforts to protect Society members (I'm GMing an older scenario and I happen to read their faction mission) I have no emotional attachment. If anything, any "caring" that Torch does about Society members seems disingenuous given his later history. Since I learned the later history first, it colors everything I see of him during the good period & it doesn't really seem good at all.
* My basic idea of the Shadow Lodge plotline is Bad -> Still-Bad-But-Not-Currently-Murdering-Pathfinders -> Betrayed.

Now that I've written it all out, I think I did a better job of explaining my own point of view than trying to understand that of the Shadow Lodge players. Hopefully there is still some value added though. If my view of the matter is mostly accurate, I can't imagine us ever getting to the point where there would be a big swell of support from the post-season-4 player base for the Shadow Lodge's return.

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