
RoseCrown |
I'm having some problems with XPs and the Summon Monster family of spells.
Case 1:
The PCs enter the lair of the Villain. De declares them irrelevant and summons a monster to take care of them. assumin ght e PCs win (or at least survive), do they get XPs, or are the summoned monster(s) considered a weapon/tool/ability of the villain, and as such part of his XP value?
Case 2:
Same scenario as case 1, except the villain flees the scene. does this change anything?
Case 3:
The villain decides to use a bit of "scry-and-fry"-style tactics, summoning a bunch of monsters and teleporting them to the PCs' location
Case 4:
Same as Case 1 above, but with a called monster (instead of a summoned one).
Case 5:
Same as Case 2 above, but with a called monster (instead of a summoned one).
Case 6:
Same as Case 3 above, but with a called monster (instead of a summoned one).

Maezer |
Case 1: They are part of villain. If the adventurers are going to be continuing the encounter villain before he has a chance to regain resources then you should wait to distribute XP for that to happen. If not you have case 2.
Case 2: If the villain flees, then the PC's have overcome the encounter and should be awarded XP as such. If the villain didn't try very hard you should probably adjust the CR of the encounter to reflect that.
Case 3: This is the same as case 1 or 2 depending on how you expect the rest of the adventuring day to go.
Case 4-6: Called monsters generally modify the CR of encounters they are in, and thus effect experience normally.

Chess Pwn |

Things brought in via class features aren't a separate enemy.
So a druid's animal companion is no EXP, a leadership minion is no EXP.
So if you have a lv20 Druid as the BBEG and he has leadership and a pet and all of the minions are druides with leadership and a pet the party can fight TONS of druids and pets and technically get no EXP.
Now, if the fight is completely separate from the guy then it's fair to rule it as it's own fight and give them the appropriate EXP.

RoseCrown |
Case 2: If the villain flees, then the PC's have overcome the encounter and should be awarded XP as such. If the villain didn't try very hard you should probably adjust the CR of the encounter to reflect that.
What if I rephrase the situations such that the villain doesn't flee, but rather leaves the scene because he's done with what needed to be done (he's won his part of the encounter) and he's sure his summoned minions will kill the PCs?
Case 3: This is the same as case 1 or 2 depending on how you expect the rest of the adventuring day to go.
The idea here was that the villain never directly faces the party. He's sending minions. Does it matter (for XP purposes) if these minions are employees or summoned creatures? If so, why?

RoseCrown |
Case 7:
the party reaches the villain, who declares them irrelevant and summons monsters to fight them.
The party defeats the summoned monster, but when facing the villain himself, are defeated (but not killed).
The PCs wake up locked in a cell. Should I give them XPs for the monsters they defeated, or did they loose the entire "encounter", for no XPs?

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If the PCs never really face the villian, treat it as a trap that summons creatures.
Basically, CR equal to the level of the spell, modified by how obvious it is. Give the PCs a perception check with a DC based on the Perception DC you select for this "trap." If they succeed, give the PCs a surprise round to prepare (they still probably don't know what for, but being able to draw weapons and not being flat footed is pretty huge). If they fail, just don't include a surprise round, handling it in normal intiative order (if you have the villian stated out, could have the summoned monsters act on his/her intiative instead rolling for them seperately).
Rules for finding the CR of traps are in the CRB. Basically the parts you'd use are the Perception DC and the Miscellaneous features "alchemical device" which acts as your mimicked spell. That should give you a reasonable CR for the PCs to deal with the summoned creatures and get XP for the encounter.
One thing of note, if the PCs are able to act in the surprise round, they may be able to counter the spell. Doesn't get used nearly enough, but counterspelling is pretty awesome and should be encouraged for the PCs. If they manage to counter it, give them full xp for defeating the monsters.

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Murdock Mudeater wrote:Basically, CR equal to the level of the spell,I've read the rules for trap, I don't see how they apply?
They don't apply, but it's the closest you can get to actual rules for this sort of thing. Players should be getting experience for defeating monsters and overcoming difficulties. If their opponent is essentially, just a spell, treating the encounter as a trap, is a reasonable way to handle it.
And, in theory, each encounter should be balanced based on CR. So doing it this way makes it easy to adjust the encounter if one player drops, or if a new player joins the group.
So, for example, encounter is designed for a 5-PC party that is 1st level. Your high level villian is using summoned monsters to deal with the players, rather than fighting himself, so he casts Summon Monster 5, and summons a Kyton with orders to attack the players.
A Kyton is a CR 6 creature, but as a summon, we are treating the encounter as just the spell, so the "Trap" is CR 5. For 1st level characters this will be a tough fight. I suggest the players get a perception check to "Notice the trap." I'd set the perception DC based on the number of players, so as to use this to adjust the encouter CR. So with only 4 PCs, I'd give it a perception CR 15. With 5 PCs, give it CR20, and with 6 PCs CR 25. If the players "notice the trap" give them the surprise round to prepare for the summoned creature. If they don't notice it, have them all fight in normal intiative.
As a summoned creature, you do need the caster level of this spell. That will affect the player's ability to counter the spell, dispell it, and it will determine the spell's duration. Since the spell has limited duration, the PCs can just wait it out, and they are considered having defeated the encounter. They could even try to outrun it, for the whole duration.

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even if they never actually "fought" the villain its still counted as surviving the encounter and they receive half the exp value of said creature(the caster that summoned the monsters)
You could do that, but it will really mess with the encounter's CR. For example, if the 20th level wizard casts Summon Monster 5, and leaves, the CR of the encounter is 20 because the Wizard is level 20, despite the players really only facing that one spell that isn't even a full powered spell for that wizard. So even if they only recieve half xp, that would be over 150,000xp for the entire encounter.
Treating it as a trap will give a much more meaningful encounter CR.

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They get full value for the creature if it doesn't meaningfully impact the wizard's resources. If I were said wizard, teleported in, summoned a Glabrezu, and got the Abyss out of Absalom, they should receive experience for facing the Glabrezu, maybe a 10% discount in experience as it's not able to use its own summoning abilities.

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They get full value for the creature if it doesn't meaningfully impact the wizard's resources. If I were said wizard, teleported in, summoned a Glabrezu, and got the Abyss out of Absalom, they should receive experience for facing the Glabrezu, maybe a 10% discount in experience as it's not able to use its own summoning abilities.
9th level spell doesn't impact the wizard's resources....Are max level spells not considered resources to the wizard?
Anywho, I think summoned creatures are much weaker than their normal versions. It's not just because they can't summon, but because they can be dispelled and there are many achetypes, spells, and classes will special bonuses against summons. Also a huge fan of the Summon Bane special weapon property.

Sissyl |

Generally, I would say action economy is the key. Let's say the villain summons creatures (with enough duration) to attack the heroes some distance away, maybe via scrying. The villain's stats are otherwise unimportant, and the heroes fight off the summons. Give them normal XP for the encounter according to the CR of the creatures. If they confront the villain and he summons monsters as part of his actions in combat etc etc etc, he is the threat and the summons are part of his abilities. Give them his XP if they defeat him (including if he runs away).

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Val'bryn2 wrote:They get full value for the creature if it doesn't meaningfully impact the wizard's resources. If I were said wizard, teleported in, summoned a Glabrezu, and got the Abyss out of Absalom, they should receive experience for facing the Glabrezu, maybe a 10% discount in experience as it's not able to use its own summoning abilities.9th level spell doesn't impact the wizard's resources....Are max level spells not considered resources to the wizard?
Anywho, I think summoned creatures are much weaker than their normal versions. It's not just because they can't summon, but because they can be dispelled and there are many achetypes, spells, and classes will special bonuses against summons. Also a huge fan of the Summon Bane special weapon property.
You misunderstand me. I'm saying that it doesn't meaningfully impact his resources if he's not encountered that day. If he's had time to regain spells, no, the 9th level spell from yesterday isn't an impact.
And by your logic, a paladin shouldn't get experience for facing undead, outsiders, or dragons, because they have a special bonus against them, same for a Ranger with a Favored Enemy that repeatedly comes up in game.

Lady-J |
Lady-J wrote:even if they never actually "fought" the villain its still counted as surviving the encounter and they receive half the exp value of said creature(the caster that summoned the monsters)You could do that, but it will really mess with the encounter's CR. For example, if the 20th level wizard casts Summon Monster 5, and leaves, the CR of the encounter is 20 because the Wizard is level 20, despite the players really only facing that one spell that isn't even a full powered spell for that wizard. So even if they only recieve half xp, that would be over 150,000xp for the entire encounter.
Treating it as a trap will give a much more meaningful encounter CR.
but that's what will happen when you use level 20 wizards to fight a low level party they will level up fast, one of our gms had a previous game were a group of level 2 characters was sneaking around a high epic and mythic level caster destroying a town they some how managed to survive and became like level 22 characters from getting half exp

Fuzzy-Wuzzy |

I don't think anyone has mentioned this option in this thread yet, but I've seen it in others: award full XP for summoned creatures, keep track of how much you gave that way, and subtract it when they finally defeat the wizard in a later encounter. That way their total XP is what it should be (they defeated the wizard and what amounts to his class features) but they're not empty-handed along the way.

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And by your logic, a paladin shouldn't get experience for facing undead, outsiders, or dragons, because they have a special bonus against them, same for a Ranger with a Favored Enemy that repeatedly comes up in game.
Very confused by your response. I was suggesting giving XP based on the CR of the spell, determined as if the spell were a trap. Were you, perhaps, meaning to quote someone else?
I don't think anyone has mentioned this option in this thread yet, but I've seen it in others: award full XP for summoned creatures, keep track of how much you gave that way, and subtract it when they finally defeat the wizard in a later encounter. That way their total XP is what it should be (they defeated the wizard and what amounts to his class features) but they're not empty-handed along the way.
Are you giving said wizard new spells each day? If so, at some point the XP from his summoned monsters should exceed his own XP, using this method. Does defeating the wizard grant any XP, at that point?

RoseCrown |
Officially you don't get XP for summoned monsters. In practice that kind of sucks though. I recommend giving at least partial XP, especially if the summoned monsters are used as an encounter of their own (perhaps in a "cast and run" manner)
OK, this was my impression, but I wanted to check.
And yes, I was thinking of a sort of 'Cast and Run' scenario too.
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@Murdock Mudeater
Sorry, I was referencing your comment on the weaknesses of summoned creatures, and my stance that experience should be determined by differences in the stats, not because of how a player may have built their character.
You mean that you think summoned creatures should be considered of equal CR to their non-summoned counterparts?
I suppose that's up to how you GM them.
A non-summoned creature will likely be found in it's native environment, which is likely well suited for it. A summoned creature will appear where the caster deems, and fight whomever the caster designates. This fighting style may go against the creature's nature, which could work for or against the summoned creature.
From a difficultly stance, a summoned creature is usually easier to defeat than one who is in their natural habitat and has a good reason to attack the party. Additionally, pro-life party members don't need to hold back against summoned creatures. On the other hand, summoned creatures don't leave treasure, so any losses as a result of the combat are not replaced. I would certainly caution a GM from having every encounter being against summoned creatures, unless you planned to give the PC's treasure for it.
Regarding builds, some of anti-summon creatures is build dependent, you are correct. Others are not. For example, Protection From Evil is a staple spell that is better against summoned creatures. Counterspelling summons is build dependent, but using dispel magic to remove summons is not.