Are the Qlippoth the real good side of the setting?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


Short answer- no, they're horrible fields who are ultimately a danger to just about everything that isn't them, but I think one could frame things as if they were.

Ok, think about it. In the beginning there's the Maelstrom and then they do some experiments and mess up and either created or opened up the Abyss.

From the Qlippoth point of view, though? There they are, in their home plane, living with no outside worries, just doing what they do.

Then this *event* happens, another species from another plane opens up a barrier between the two... and it's not just a connection, but everything's cracked up now and their reality is eating away at yours, so you counter-attack.

And then there's more stuff that shows up, other planes. They might not be directly as hostile as this storm of chaos, but still tied to it and certainly not friendly. Even Axis, that comes from yet a third place entirely, not only tries to encroach on the Maelstrom but your home Abyss as well.

And so there's this conflict that lasts for eons... until things get worse.

The Demons! These were things inflicted on them by the outside reality, by mortals, by shoving souls into their home and creating something new and evil that tries to destroy them. Think about how horrible and wrong that must be to them, like an alien invasion that implants part of themselves into the Earth to make human-hunters, only instead of humans it's Qlippoth.

Hard to view the 'new' reality that Golarion and etc. is part of as benevolent when it's inflicted all this on the poor Qlippoth, isn't it?


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And so the mightiest of qlippoth left Abyss and entered this alien domain, and was able to claim a power of the rulers of the planes, who called themselves gods. He was more powerful than any of them, and they couldn't kill him. Unable to face him in an open battle, they created the Cage, and locked him inside. However even that didn't stop him, and even from his imprisonment he is sending his powerful spawn, so that the world was unmade and the qlippoth were free from its menace. Rovagug, the Rough Beast, the Great Destroyer, Enemy of the Gods, Hero of Qlippoth.

Makes sense to me.


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I think you're kind of thinking of it from the perspective of our world (where morality is something very different from alignment). In a world with Pathfinder's alignment, it's an unequivocally and objectively good act to oppose the Qlippoth's goals and to try to destroy them.

Consider this:

Quote:
There they are, in their home plane, living with no outside worries, just doing what they do.

You're kind of conjuring the impression of innocent victims minding their own business. However, remember that "just doing what they do" means "being malicious incarnations of pure evil and chaos".

Dark Archive

Well the thing is, it is an interesting point of view that could be put into role playing, a little like how Kytons evangelise pain and "setting others free" or "enlightening" them. Think about it, we could have Qlippoth cults trying to "end the war" and give the Qlippoth back their homelands.


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I'm not really a big fan of alignment, however it's pretty baked in to Pathfinder and I think it has wide-ranging implications (which really cut out a lot of the "shades of grey" stories one might like to tell). Good/Evil isn't a matter of perspective in the Pathfinder world, that was my point.

I think a game where the players come to learn that the 'bad guys' are actually innocent victims could be quite good. I don't think it's easy to tell that story in a world with detect alignment spells and smite evil though - better to run a GURPS:Conspiracy game or something, imo.


Steve Geddes wrote:

I think you're kind of thinking of it from the perspective of our world (where morality is something very different from alignment). In a world with Pathfinder's alignment, it's an unequivocally and objectively good act to oppose the Qlippoth's goals and to try to destroy them.

Consider this:

Quote:
There they are, in their home plane, living with no outside worries, just doing what they do.
You're kind of conjuring the impression of innocent victims minding their own business. However, remember that "just doing what they do" means "being malicious incarnations of pure evil and chaos".

Keep in mind, that the cosmology opened on their world, and before the Protean's actions opened up to it, the only other beings around were other Qlippoth. It's not like they were killing mortals or even other Outsiders back then.

We basically know them after their plane was ripped opened and perhaps damaged in unknown ways when it was opened by an infinite planar storm.

'Good' planes had not even remotely formed when this happened- heck, consider Asmodeus's origin story, it kinda implies that Good was invented later and lead his brother down a path that put them into conflict.

This isn't like the Great Wheel where everything formed at once, there really could've been untold eons where the Abyss was just among itself living however they wanted to live, and there was definitely a period were it was only the Abyss and Maelstrom.

So sure, now they're evil in a fairly objective manner, but the arriving multiverse invented/introduced the concepts.


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I don't think that's necessarily true (although it might be).

In a world of subjective morality, you probably need good to have evil. however in a world where morality is objective and indubitable, they could well have been evil without any good-aligned planes.

Sure the victims of their depredations were other Qlippoth, but I don't see any reason to think they weren't evil before the other planes existed.

When you say "...now they're evil in a fairly objective manner, but the arriving multiverse invented/introduced the concepts." I think this is unjustified - I don't see anything in Pathfinder that suggests that alignment depends in some sense on the planes for its existence.


I'd put it this way- Qlippoth morality before contact with the Proteans likely didn't consider good and evil to be important if they had the concepts at all, and even now they're far more divorced from conventional evils like sin and such than Demons, Devils, and even Daemons are. It's much more blue and orange morality that happens to be highly hostile to ours.

They maybe had a society we could consider evil, but lacking anyone in their entire existence who'd consider that a meaningful distinction, does that matter?


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I think it does, since they could cast detect evil and get a resounding "yes".


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My point really is that alignment isn't morality - it's a very poor model of it, but trying to tell a morally complicated story in a setting with alignment is going to fall flat, imo.

Best to use an alignmentless world (but still one with moral issues).


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Detect Alignment magic is a product of the gods. They set it up so that qlippoth would appear evil. Don't believe gods' lies!


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We messed up. Ok? We admit it. Please don't keep bringing it back up. We're trying to make things better, but all you mortals do is scream about how you want to remain trapped in a single form in a maddeningly static and unchanging reality. I'm not sure who might be worse, you deluded things or the qlippoth. Ssila'meshnik forbid.


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I wouldn't call the qlippoth "good" or even fully "innocent." It's a little hard for what is basically the multiverse's embodiment of madness and malevolence. They may not have known the rest of existence was there before the proteans first ripped the "fabric of reality," so to speak, but it's not as if they were "nice" or "peaceful;" they just weren't aware that there were other beings to prey on/infect/torture/etc.

And their responses to the various "offences" against them are, yes, evil. What would be defined as "disproportionate responses."


You may say disproportionate response, but they *are* fighting to protect reality itself from an intrusive reality that, among other things, inflicted Demons on them.

Squint a bit and that resembles some of the more cosmic Superhero Stories (like the Thanos Imperative, if you know Guardians of the Galaxy comics)


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Sounds like something a qlippoth would say...

*squints*


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Meraki wrote:

Sounds like something a qlippoth would say...

*squints*

No, no, a Qlippoth would be eating your face...


You guys are so kooky! First we make you murder everyone you care about.

Then suck your face through your entrails while we devour your soul and poop it out behind us while we devour the cosmos. ^-^


The Silly Qlippoth wrote:

You guys are so kooky! First we make you murder everyone you care about.

Then suck your face through your entrails while we devour your soul and poop it out behind us while we devour the cosmos. ^-^

Amateurs...


Such heroes *wipes away a teardrop*


You might possibly argue that the Qlippoth weren't always what we call "evil," but by that same token I'd argue they were never what might be called "good." A mote of dust floating out in vast, cosmic emptiness is no more good than it is evil, after all. You don't get rewarded with a "G" in your alignment just because you haven't gone out of your way to hurt anyone, especially when there's no one around to really hurt.

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