| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've been meaning to update Hexblade to Pathfinder. So here is my take on it.
Yes, Magus has an archetype that is close with gaining hexes. But no curse ability.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KUI58BIvGlwgjeqdoLHVy1P2bIkFXx_wZKrFddK _bT4/edit
Difference:
Hexblade has full BAB (while no bonus hit abilities, they can reduce enemy AC)
Magus has 6th level spells, while Hexblade now gets up to 5th.
Hexblade is now spontaneous, while Magus is prepared. Going with that Hexblde now has low known, while Magus can learn as much as he wants).
I gave Hexblade Luck mechanics (Grit/Panache mentions Luck) so now has deeds.
While Hexblade allows substituting Cha for hit/Damage I limited by Class level to keep it balanced.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Don't copy/paste URLs. Use url tags to create links. Like so.
I see a number of major issues with this class. Let's start with the skills and spellcasting.
Skills: Having Diplomacy doesn't make any sense to me. Everything about this class screams "I AM NOT A PEOPLE PERSON." I also have a pet peeve for homebrew classes that have Perception as a class skill as it's the best skill in the game. I believe no class to have this skill unless they're a non-spellcasting martial or a Wisdom-based class.
Spellcasting: I have several problems with how this class casts spells.
1) Pathfinder classes either cast up to 4th level, 6th level, or 9th level spells. None of them cast up to 5th level spells. Already, you made me skeptical of this class as you made this class more powerful than any other full BAB spellcaster.
2) The class is a spontaneous caster but they have no spells known limit. Them being a spontaneous caster with none of the downsides of being a spontaneous caster doesn't sit well with me. The text is also vague in how they can learn and replace spells.
3) They're a full BAB class that can cast more spells than a magus or any other 6-level spellcaster? The magus only starts with a single 1st level spell. This class gets 2 ontop of having a full BAB, better skills, and better proficiencies.
4) Their spell list has many good spells at a lower level than other classes. For example, they get break enchantment at 4th level instead of 5th. Why do that when they can cast 5th level spells?
I will agree with Cyrad's input on skills. I imagine that Diplomacy is included because this is a Cha class, but with class feature names like curse, malice, and scourge I think limiting it to Bluff and Intimidate is more fitting. Traits exist to add extra skills if the player wants it. Of course everyone wants Perception as a class skill! I have read dozens and dozens of home brew classes, and a significant majority of them have Perception. It has become a default because everyone wants their class to be badass. I think that less than half of classes should have it. Maybe a third of them.
There is a bit of a precedence for a 5-level caster, but not in Pathfinder. The duskblade was a late-3.5 D&D class with 5-level casting, full-BAB, and two good saves. I don't think it's neccessarily wrong, but do think that the paladin or ranger would be a better model.
For your luck class feature, why did you decide on Cha +1? Just the ability mod by itself is sufficient. With a 19-20 or 18-20 crit weapon, refilling the pool is easier.
Don't copy/paste URLs. Use url tags to create links. Like so.
I see a number of major issues with this class. Let's start with the skills and spellcasting.
Skills: Having Diplomacy doesn't make any sense to me. Everything about this class screams "I AM NOT A PEOPLE PERSON." I also have a pet peeve for homebrew classes that have Perception as a class skill as it's the best skill in the game. I believe no class to have this skill unless they're a non-spellcasting martial or a Wisdom-based class.
I appreciate help there, I don't understand the links well, so URL tags, cool.
I was mostly just choosing other Cha skills, plus original Hexblade has it. I am fine with losing perception if too much though.
Spellcasting: I have several problems with how this class casts spells.
1) Pathfinder classes either cast up to 4th level, 6th level, or 9th level spells. None of them cast up to 5th level spells. Already, you made me skeptical of this class as you made this class more powerful than any other full BAB spellcaster.2) The class is a spontaneous caster but they have no spells known limit. Them being a spontaneous caster with none of the downsides of being a spontaneous caster doesn't sit well with me. The text is also vague in how they can learn and replace spells.
3) They're a full BAB class that can cast more spells than a magus or any other 6-level spellcaster? The magus only starts with a single 1st level spell. This class gets 2 ontop of having a full BAB, better skills, and better proficiencies.
4) Their spell list has many good spells at a lower level than other classes. For example, they get break enchantment at 4th level instead of 5th. Why do that when they can cast 5th level spells?
1) I don't think it is real issue that they cast 5th level spells. I used the Duskblade chassis as original Hexblade sucked.
2) The text is clear: each level after 1st, you gain 1, no more, each level of any you cast.If the players wants to add 19 1st instead of higher, that is their choice. Same limit of Duskblade. Really doesn't hurt class nor make it too strong.
3) Magus is prepared caster, if I have less than or equal as a spontaneous something is wrong. Hexblade makes much having extremely low known but having way more slots.
Magus casts in armor heavier than light. Remember, Hexblades are only in light armor.
Magus also has a better selection of spells. Hexblade does NOT have all the good ones like Shocking grasps (most Magus cast that all their career), fireball, etc.
4) Um, no, except at highest two levels 4 and 5, none of the spells are at a lower level compared to other classes overall I checked. Can you name lower level ones you object toward?
And breaking Enchantment and curses is within their theme.
If I lower to 4th, I'd have to move all those spells from 5th to 4th as I am keeping the spells.
Remember, Magus while not full BAB has a phrethla of methods to increase attack bonus (enhancing weapon, 1 Magus Arcana adds Int to attacks, etc)
I will agree with Cyrad's input on skills. I imagine that Diplomacy is included because this is a Cha class, but with class feature names like curse, malice, and scourge I think limiting it to Bluff and Intimidate is more fitting. Traits exist to add extra skills if the player wants it. Of course everyone wants Perception as a class skill! I have read dozens and dozens of home brew classes, and a significant majority of them have Perception. It has become a default because everyone wants their class to be badass. I think that less than half of classes should have it. Maybe a third of them.
There is a bit of a precedence for a 5-level caster, but not in Pathfinder. The duskblade was a late-3.5 D&D class with 5-level casting, full-BAB, and two good saves. I don't think it's neccessarily wrong, but do think that the paladin or ranger would be a better model.
For your luck class feature, why did you decide on Cha +1? Just the ability mod by itself is sufficient. With a 19-20 or 18-20 crit weapon, refilling the pool is easier.
I hear that about perception. I can remove it.
I can remove the +1 I guess.
There removed Perception and +1, still not sure about Diplomacy.
Compared to Duskblade, I lower 3rd, 4th, and 5th spell/day caps as they had way too many higher level (Lower from 10 to 9, 7, and 6 respectively), but raised caps by 1 on 1st and 2nd (10th in 3.5, I raised to 11 at level 20).
1) The problem I have with 5th level spellcasting is three-fold:
A) The power trade-off is wrong. Losing only a single spell level doesn't justify having a full BAB.
B) They're a full BAB class that starts with 1st level spellcasting. That's unheard of in Pathfinder. This alone threatens the class overpowered at 1st level. Yet, they also get a bunch of other class features, too, despite the fact that full BAB classes usually don't get many class features at 1st level.
C) Pathfinder doesn't have 5-level spellcasting, largely because of the above two points. I don't care if 3.5e did it -- this is Pathfinder. Pathfinder has its own standards. You might be better off making this have spell progression like the Medium.
2) The spells description is loosey goosey with its language and has several typos and grammar issues. It also begs the question about learning spells outside of
3) The big problem with them casting more spells than a magus is that they have a full BAB. A full BAB class should not be able to cast more spells than a magus. On top of it, they don't have a limit on spells known, so they essentially have all of the perks of spontaneous casting without the biggest drawback. These two facts alone make this class overpowered, ESPECIALLY at 1st level.
I don't care if the magus has ways to increase their attack bonus; pretty much all combat-oriented gish classes have some way of doing that. It's not the same as having a full BAB because a full BAB gives many other benefits that keeps martials above the curve in fighting, such as increased number of attacks and meeting feat prerequisites. Your class can pick up staple feats like Power Attack, Deadly Aim, and Weapon Focus at 1st level. A magus cannot.
4) Level 4 and 5 is the issue. If you move a bunch of powerful 5th level spells to 4th level, then it begs the question why even make them a 5th level spellcaster anyway? Geas/quest, break enchantment, polymorph, baleful polymorph, and several others are all given early. It would be fine to keep them as 4th level spells if you change the class to a 4-level spellcaster. Many 4-level spellcasters have a few higher level spells at their highest level as "capstones," which is why break enchantment is a 4th level spell for paladins. You just need to be sure you don't overdo it.
3) The big problem with them casting more spells than a magus is that they have a full BAB. A full BAB class should not be able to cast more spells than a magus. On top of it, they don't have a limit on spells known, so they essentially have all of the perks of spontaneous casting without the biggest drawback. These two facts alone make this class overpowered, ESPECIALLY at 1st level.
Disagree, Magus can with a spellbook have way more known than this class.
This class only gains 19 spells after 1st level. Where they put them is up to them, but still only 19.Why does a limit matter when it is only 19?
Who cares if he has 21 1st level spells at level 20, if he has no higher level spells?
He gains 1/2 the amount as wizard learns each level (Wizard learn 21)and can't add spells through scrolls.
Remember, Pathfinder is a permissive game if I don't write you can add through scrolls you can't.
I don't understand the issue you'll need to break it down way harder why this is an issue.
Remember no Known limit, but gaining known limit.
You can't gain spells outside leveling. No scrolls. Nothing.
Now, if you reach level 100, I guess potentially you could known more than a Magus 1at level (who filled up spellbook). But this is a very corner case.
Added my answer as text:
While foolish, a Hexblade can choose to just take 1st level spells each level, but doing so would give him no higher level spells but 21 1st level spells.
A hexblade cannot learn spells through any other way so must choose spells carefully.
Still unsure why you thought having only 21 1st level spells known and no higher was an issue, but I approve of that if that is considered too powerful (because I don't see how that is too strong).
Honestly, the expected known is likely: at 20th- not counting bonus 0th levels.
3 0th, 4 1st, 4 2nd, 4 3rd, 4 4th, 4 5th
Now, with the replacement ability, you could have less lowers and more highers, but still not that much more.
Note, not even counting bonus knowns from Bloodline, Bloodrager has more spells known. Almost 50% at each spell level.
The issue is that the downside of playing a spontaneous caster is that they have a cap on what spells they know for any given spell level at any given level. You deliberately remove that restriction. The result is that at low levels and certain levels, this class is a better spellcaster than the sorcerer. That's not a good thing, especially since the class is already above the power curve because it's a full BAB class that starts the game with two 1st level spell slots.
Another issue is that there are actually ways for spellcasters to gain spells outside of copying scrolls. Spell research is a good example. The spells known limit applies even to those instances. Since the class doesn't have a spells known limit, then that makes the class more powerful.
At the very least, if you're designing this with the assumption that the class can only learn spells from leveling up, then reinforce that limit by saying something like "A hexblade only knows a number of spells equal 1 + her level. In addition to this limit, she begins play knowing a number of 0-level spells equal to her Charisma bonus." Or simply remove the "She can potentially know any number of spells" since THERE IS a limit on it.
The issue is that the downside of playing a spontaneous caster is that they have a cap on what spells they know for any given spell level at any given level. You deliberately remove that restriction. The result is that at low levels and certain levels, this class is a better spellcaster than the sorcerer. That's not a good thing, especially since the class is already above the power curve because it's a full BAB class that starts the game with two 1st level spell slots.
Is that your main issue? One extra at level one?
If it only have 1 you would have way less issue?
Another issue is that there are actually ways for spellcasters to gain spells outside of copying scrolls. Spell research is a good example. The spells known limit applies even to those instances. Since the class doesn't have a spells known limit, then that makes the class more powerful.
But they can't do spell research to circumvent it because the text explicitly states: No other way.
Just like a Sorcerer, spell research just nothing to circumvent limits.
At the very least, if you're designing this with the assumption that the class can only learn spells from leveling up, then reinforce that limit by saying something like "A hexblade only knows a number of spells equal 1 + her level. In addition to this limit, she begins play knowing a number of 0-level spells equal to her Charisma bonus." Or simply remove the "She can potentially know any number of spells" since THERE IS a limit on it.
Well, you can know more extra 0th levels (because you get bonus 0ths, similar to how a Magus gets bonus 1sts at level 1). You get way Way more than just Cha bonus, you get 3 more.
But yeah, I guess that text is useful for new players reading it. I can add something like that there.I used this text:
She is limited to knowing 1st and higher spells a maximum of each spell level equal to 2 + her level.
2+level to maintain same example of 21 1st levels at level 20 if some newbie takes only 1st level spell each level.
I underlined this text:
A hexblade cannot learn spells through any other way so must choose spells carefully. Nothing can circumvent this limit of learning spells.
In case, again, a new player gets confused or misses it. I think you maybe have as well as you thought otherwise.
I don't think it was unclear that I meant nothing can.
You really don't get his criticisms do you...I'm sorry but if you refuse to listen I refuse to offer my advice.
@Cyrad good luck reasoning with this guy, I greatly respect your opinion on these things and I might build my own version of this class (because they're cool) and ill actually listen to you when I do
You really don't get his criticisms do you...I'm sorry but if you refuse to listen I refuse to offer my advice.
@Cyrad good luck reasoning with this guy, I greatly respect your opinion on these things and I might build my own version of this class (because they're cool) and ill actually listen to you when I do
A. you never offered any advice, unless you did then deleted them.
B. I did listen to the ones that were helpful.But a few were exaggerations. Like spell research ever does anything to spell's known.
It doesn't.
Even for a wizard, it does nothing to a Wizard's spell known, it adds it to his spell list. He still has to scribe into his spellbook his newly research spell to add to spell's known.
I mean, does everyone let Sorcerer's get unlimited spells known through research? It adds to spell list so that doesn't help yet. No, you research, gain a level and add it to your known.
Spell research doesn't allow a sorcerer to circumvent their spells known limit, but that's because they have a spells known limit.
But all of this is a minor point in the grand scheme of things. The class is overpowered, and I haven't even dived into any class features beyond level 1. Most GMs wouldn't allow a player to use this class simply because it's a full BAB class that gets to cast 1st level spells at level 1.
So, if I changed it to similar to Medium spell casting (but with 5th) you think that would be more well perceived?
I changed it to no 1st levels at 1st like 3.5 bard.
Only cantrips at 1st.
I'd recommend making this a 4-level spellcaster like the Medium where they start with cantrips. As I said before, I don't think losing only one spell level compared to a magus is enough of a trade-off to justify having a full BAB AND 5 levels of spellcasting. Besides, you moved a lot of 5th level spells to 4th level anyway. If there's a particular high level spell you feel is integral to the class, then make it a high level class feature.
I think its important to keep in mind what you want to accomplish. After a quick skim, the hexblade feels like a martial debuffer that mixes throwing curses and hitting things with his sword. The first question you have to ask yourself is: How is the hexblade different from a hexcrafter magus? If the answer is "a few iconic abilities from the 3.5 version" then you should consider making an new archetype of the magus.
Another option is to play a stalker specializing in cursed razor maneuvers.
@Cyrad: High spell levels + full BaB do not necessarily make a class overpowered. Consider the cleric vs the wizard. The cleric gets 3/4ths BaB and medium armor because the wizard's spell list is (in theory) better. Also, as far as I can tell, the hexblade does not get a way to cast spells and attack at once. That's a pretty big action economy cost.
Considering that most of his spells have saves attached to them it makes building a hexblade quite hard too.
From what I can tell, I would probably prefer to play a magus over a hexblade. Better action economy, and better spell list.
Appreciate the counter to thought that all full BAB can't have high spells.
I agree there should be a bit of decision, I don't want my class to be instantly considered better.
Don't have awesome action economy, but Luck (like Grit) deeds and Curse ability help.
Agreed is way more debuffer.
Someone attempting an actual playtest if can get DM to allow it would help me get best data as live play if a decent resource (reason PFS is so much used for FAQS by Paizo)
If I ever find a PbP that allows homebrew maybe I can test myself later.
I decided to change down to learning 1ths at 4th. But with this downgrade, I am adding this deed:
Jinxed Strike: At 7th level, whenever the Hexblade hits an opponent in melee, and the Hexblade can as a free action, spend 1 Luck point to channel Curse subtype spell to the target without provoking an attack of opportunity.
I need to clean up wording, But this will help with action economy.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Spells: Good to see that change to the spell levels. However, why is there a spells per day column for cantrips when you can cast them at-will? Also, this sentence needs reworded: "However, she is limited to knowing 1st and higher spells a maximum of each spell level equal to her level."
Luck: I honestly feel like adding a grit mechanic feels totally out of place with the class. You also added a lot more ways to regain luck points, which I have mixed feelings about, especially since one of them allows the hexblade to regain points simply by standing next to a dying creature. If you're going to add a grit mechanic and make it easier to regain points, then why not actually do something that fits the class's themes? Like, maybe they regain a point when an enemy dies while under your curse effects?
Deeds: You need to understand one crucial thing about designing deeds -- deeds are essentially pseudo-at-will abilities because grit/luck is a dynamic resource system. This means you have to be careful about what deeds can do. They can't be as powerful as spells because there's potentially no limit to how many times they can be done in a day.
Also, you don't need to repeat the saving throw DC for every deed. If all of the DCs have the same calculation, you can just say what the DCs are under the Deeds heading.
- Eldritch Strike: This is essentially a better version of the swashbuckler's precise strike AND they get it two levels before the swashbuckler. Even requiring a cursed opponent isn't a hindrance because of the major economy and duration issues of the curse class feature.
- Armor Hex: This is essentially a way better version of blur (a 2nd level spell) that you get two levels early and has no action economy, unlike similar abilities in other classes that usually require an immediate action. Also remmeber what I said earlier about designing deeds.
- Healing Curse: I think you should totally scrap this ability. Not only because of my above reasons concerning deeds, but also because this ability completely fails the bag of rats test.
- Martial Mogo: The hexblade can technically already add her Charisma modifier in place of Strength for CMB thanks to the hexwarrior class feature (not that I'm endorsing that feature).
- Cursed Casting: This needs to be rewritten as the text is awkward with its language. I also have mixed feelings about adding the curse descriptor (there's no such thing as a curse subtype) to a spell. It doesn't make much sense for many spells, and this is an ability that's powerful enough to be a metamagic feat. Maybe too powerful. 3.5e had several metamagic feats that let you add spell descriptors, which let players abuse it in some really gamebreaking ways.
- Jinxed Strike: This deed has a major flaw in that the action economy allows you cast multiple curse spells in a single round. You should have made this work like the magus's spellstrike and let you spellstrike curse spells that target a single creature. And again, there's no such thing as a spell subtype. You probably mean "spell descriptor."
- Cursed Wound: I think completely blocking a creature from healing as a permanent duration effect is WAY too strong. Similar abilities that other classes and creatures have usually give the target temporary spell resistance that can't be suppressed. The last two sentences also need rewritten.
- Improved Mettle: The first sentence needs completely rewritten (and probably scrapped entirely). I assume you're trying to make something like stalwart and evasion, but the reader can't read your mind. I think giving DR is too powerful to hand out as a deed ability (because of the reasons I pointed out above). The DR value is also fairly high. Also, why is this called "improved mettle?" The mettle class feature is not a deed.
- Improved Armor Hex: This is basically a pseudo-at-will 50% miss chance effect. See what I said about armor hex.
- Cursed Critical: I don't think this ability is a good idea. Pathfinder tries to cap the maximum critical range. Any threat-range-increasing effect that stacks with keen always replaces the weapon's base threat range.
- Wave of Horror: You can't just steal the gunslinger's menacing shot, buff it, and call it a day. Menancing shot is a deed because it affects ALL living creatures in a large radius. Wave of horror only affects enemies, which is a huge buff.
Curse: 1 hour is WAAAAAAAAAY too long of a duration. Especially considering the ability is already fairly powerful because:
A) The target still gets penalized for the duration of an entire combat even if they fail the save.
B) The usage economy is broken because you can spend luck (a renewable resource) to use this ability over and over again.
C) The ability is better than evil eye (one of the witch's iconic hexes) because it has better action economy, penalizes multiple rolls/statistics at once, and has a higher scaling penalty.
I recommend either:
A) Make this similar to a smite or a cavalier challenge where this is the class's opportunity to go "all in" when engaging an enemy. Make it last 1 minute, remove the saving throw, and remove the ability to use luck points to activate it.
B) Change the usage economy so it requires constant investment of luck points to keep it up all the time to make it work like a martial version of evil eye. Change the duration to rounds equal to Charisma bonus. Change it to save negates (no duration if the target succeeds on the saving throw); giving a lesser effect isn't necessary because it only required a swift action and a renewable resource to use this ability. Maybe change it so that it only penalizes one statistic rather than all of them.
Curse Mastery: I don't think a scaling DC buff is necessary, especially since they already have the ability to penalize a foe's saving throws AND many of their DCs scale with level anyway. I can't think of any spellcasting class that automatically gets a scaling DC buff. Getting a +1 or +2 to a DC is useful at all levels of play.
Hexwarrior: I'm not a fan of abilities that allow you to swap one ability score for another, especially for something fundamental like attack and damage rolls. It's a simple change that has big consequences on the game. The ability score system is a fine tuned machine that creates trade-offs and build diversity through emergent gameplay. An ability like this throws a giant monkey wrench into the system for very little reason. At best, I find it lazy design and I don't think it's a good thing to create a class where you can totally dump Strength and use Charisma to be as strong as a hulking guy that wields a greatsword. Even Dexterity builds usually prevent you from benefiting from two-handed weapons and don't let you cheat feat prerequisites.
The cap based on level was a smart idea to prevent abuse with level dipping. However, it's poorly executed because it makes it difficult to build a character around this ability.
The only reason the hexblade would need this ability is to help their saving throw DCs. However, since the hexblade has the ability to reduce an enemy's saving throws, this class feature feels totally unnecessary.
Good to have some free unchained Hexblading stuff out there. ;)
Looks better than my hexblade. I had 4-level spellcasting and curses like the original. However, I had no hexes and I focused more on auras.