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I don't have an issue with some classes requiring more system mastery for optimization than other classes.
No absolutely not... in fact I quite like it.
Its when you get very powerful base classes that require no system mastery and then get archetypes that make them even more powerful that makes my blood boil!!
{. . .}
This all being said, Lore Warden nerfs incoming (well-deserved).Lore Warden nerfs incoming? Why, and what?
From what I understand they have specific skills added as class skill no longer "all int skills"
Their free combat expertise is no longer 'free', it costs a feat and all of bravery and they get the feat at 6th level but count as having it at 2nd. Compared to only costing Bravery 1
They don't get universal bonus of +2, +4, +6 and +8 to combat maneuvers. Instead, they get the brawler's Maneuver Training class ability, treating their effective brawler level as their fighter level.
At 3rd level, a brawler can select one combat maneuver to receive additional training. She gains a +1 bonus on combat maneuver checks when performing that combat maneuver and a +1 bonus to her CMD when defending against that maneuver.
At 7th level and every 4 levels thereafter, the brawler becomes further trained in another combat maneuver, gaining the above +1 bonus combat maneuver checks and to CMD. In addition, the bonuses granted by all previous maneuver training increase by 1 each. (For example, if a brawler chooses grapple at 3rd level and sunder at 7th level, her bonuses to grapple are +2 and bonuses to sunder are +1. If she then chooses bull rush upon reaching 11th level, her bonuses to grapple are +3, to sunder are +2, and to bull rush are +1.)
They don't get universal bonus of +2, +4, +6 and +8 to combat maneuevers. Now, if you choose the right class option, you can have a scaling bonus like a ranger's favored enemy to a single combat maneuver.
That is, you get a +1 with one maneuver, then later a +2 to that maneuver and a +1 to a second maneuver, and so on to a maximum of +4.
Ah I see. They went for the nuclear option then.
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They don't get universal bonus of +2, +4, +6 and +8 to combat maneuevers. Now, if you choose the right class option, you can have a scaling bonus (like that of the ranger's Favored Enemy class feature) to a single combat maneuver.
That is, you get a +1 bonus with one maneuver, then later a +2 to that maneuver and a +1 to a second maneuver, and so on to a maximum of +4, +3, +2, and +1 with four maneuvers, respectively.
So basically once again nerfing things that still dont bring the weaker classes up to competitive with a 6/9 or 9/9 spellcaster.
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Yep. Martials can't have nice things.
Nothing new to see here folks. Move along.
well, I also think, from that thread, that the scaling CMB boost is one of the options you can take, with another option being getting know thy enemy, and I don't know what other options they have.
It doesn't surprise me that they nerfed it since it was probably on their radar for a while and I can understand where Augunas was coming from when he stated the proposed changes. They probably needed to happen. What surprises me is that they still have it remove Bravery :P
It was a little ridiculous that it was the archetype of choice for most every fighter before Weapon Master's Handbook. After that came out, I think most were a bit apprehensive to take it because Armed Bravery is utterly invaluable for fighters, but it was still really damn good. But now we should be asking 'why take this over Mutagen Warrior?'.
Mutagen Warrior is now one of the strongest archetypes for fighters simply because armour training is not that fantastic, and advanced armour mastery isn't entirely necessary for some builds. So Mutagen Warrior is an archetype that trades a minor defensive bonus for one of the strongest offensive buff in the entire game, which carries defensive buffs along with it and some extra goodies from discoveries. On a full martial. I guarantee you that Mutagen Warrior is going to see a reprint somewhere down the line, and it will get the Lore Warden treatment. The archetype is simply everything that was the problem with Lore Warden cranked to an 11.
While I do rail on and on about martial/caster disparity, in seriousness the fight doesn't suck in and of itself. It's good at what it does.I disagree - a vanilla Fighter is easy to take out and at mid levels isn't good at attacking if only you stay out of his reach (since, you know, no pounce). "Role: Fighters excel at combat" - yeah, sorry, no.
At mid-level?
The fighter pulls out his adaptive longbow and shoots you.
or
The fighter has Step Up.
or
The fighter invested in a mount and the mounted skirmisher feat
or
The fighter tripped/disarmed/blinded/staggered you
or
The fighter took Item Mastery: Teleportation and Dimensional Agility
or
....
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Really the issue with martials is simple, all they do is damage and any time they get something that doesn't do damage, it's sub par compared to anything a caster can do. I kind of think this is a side effect of martials being able to do WAY too much damage. At 20th level martial focused characters can output hundreds upon hundreds of damage, killing almost any enemy in a single round.
This shrinks quite a bit as you go down farther in levels, but even at first level an orc barbarian with 22 strength and rage can deal 2d6+15 with power attack which can kill almost any CR 1 creature in one hit and even some CR 2s and 3s. Now, you might be thinking "not everyone is a dirty powergamer that only builds martials to do the most damage" which I take offense to, but I forgive you.
Realistically though, as a martial, why wouldn't you optimize your damage? It's literally the only reason anyone keeps you around, and if you don't do damage, then most enemies will just ignore you and kill the caster. You can be as tanky as you want, but if you can't impact the battlefield in any way, you're not a party member, you're scenery.
But wait, what about the almighty combat maneuver? Let's talk about that. Combat Maneuvers at the start of an adventurer's career are pretty sweet, as long as you're fighting things your size or smaller. Most of the time you have to be super specialized to make combat maneuvers work on things bigger than you. At 20th level, the average CMD of something large or larger tends to hover between a potentially doable 40 and grows to the "don't even try" status of 50-60 with CMBs to match. Oh yeah, and at 7th level, no one cares anymore anyway. Trip me? cool, dimension door. Grapple me? oh look permanent immunity to it. Disarm me? uhh, wizard. or just dueling gauntlets, or swashbuckler. Steal from me? cool, I'll have my fighter that does do damage murder your face.
Item mastery is a pretty neat idea, but it's really limited and essentially just gives fighters a super strict spell list, which sort of defeats the point. Really, I think the answer lies somewhere in the Path of War style of doing things. Giving mundane martials the idea that they're so well trained they can start to do preternatural "anime" things like wall run up a building, move so fast you basically teleport, leave after images, and so on.
The only problem I have with Path of War (and psionics, actually) is I find Dreamscarred Press doesn't understand how damage scaling works, because a lot of their classes, spells, feats and abilities boil down to or combine to become "do even more obscene damage than usual".
In the end, martials need more options out of and in combat that don't just make you a crappy spellcaster, but have their own unique "super warrior" flair.
If someone has the thread link accessible could you throw a link up?
If you mean the link to the Adventurer's Guide hardcover, look here.
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The only problem I have with Path of War (and psionics, actually) is I find Dreamscarred Press doesn't understand how damage scaling works, because a lot of their classes, spells, feats and abilities boil down to or combine to become "do even more obscene damage than usual".
In the end, martials need more options out of and in combat that don't just make you a crappy spellcaster, but have their own unique "super warrior" flair.
I find the Aegis(Dreamscarred Press) to be a good example of a martial.
It basically boils down to them doing less damage than fighters but having greater utility and defenses so that they can actually do damage.
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The only problem I have with Path of War (and psionics, actually) is I find Dreamscarred Press doesn't understand how damage scaling works, because a lot of their classes, spells, feats and abilities boil down to or combine to become "do even more obscene damage than usual".
I haven't experienced this as a DM/GM or as a player. I use their stuff a LOT.
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Now I imagine they're going to reprint trench fighter without gun training, mutation warrior without mutagens, and martial master without martial flexibility given how much they seem to hate fighters having good archetypes or abilities. What possible reason could there be for nerfing lore warden besides some sort of vindictive hatred for people who don't like spending a feat on a worthless tax like combat expertise?
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The fighter pulls out his adaptive longbow and shoots you.
or
The fighter has Step Up.
or
The fighter invested in a mount and the mounted skirmisher feat
or
The fighter tripped/disarmed/blinded/staggered you
or
The fighter took Item Mastery: Teleportation and Dimensional Agility
or
....
Unless the Fighter was originally built to be an Archer, that's not really anything intimidating, since at best it's a +1. At worst, you're dealing with a dedicated Archer, in which case there are actually better classes to accomplish this.
The Step Up feat in and of itself isn't scary. It's the Following Step and the Step Up And Strike feats that are worth mentioning, and quite frankly, it doesn't really work in flying (a very common form of movement by mid-level). Besides that point, the Fighter had to invest 3 of his feats to make use of this, so it's still not really an excellence of combat. There are better feats he can get with those 3 feats, so Isonaroc still has a point here.
Unless the Fighter's Mount scales with level (which he can't get unless he multi-classes or spends even more feats for one), that's not an issue. Also, Mounted Skirmisher can only be acquired by 14th level, whereas other classes get Pseudo-pounce by 10th level, or are so badass they don't need it.
Fighter's ability to Trip or Disarm or Blind someone requires them to not have dumped Intelligence, and to have spent a bunch of feats into making it not absolutely suck nuts. Trip is generally crappy unless you're Gargantuan size or bigger. Disarm isn't particularly applicable to numerous enemies, and Blind requires sacrificing your entire Full Attack routine to pull off properly. Only way I know of that a Fighter can Stagger is with Critical Feats, which has even worse problems than the previous maneuvers.
Not a whole lot of GMs permit content like the Toolbox books or the Master Handbooks, and very rarely will players actually have the opportunity to make use of said feats due to the difficulty of acquiring them. Also, Dimensional feat chain is a lot of feat investment, which can't be balanced with anything else besides a giant two-handed beatstick.
Trust me, the Fighter isn't as well-off as people say he is, even with the "boons" that the splatbooks offer.
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Now I imagine they're going to reprint trench fighter without gun training, mutation warrior without mutagens, and martial master without martial flexibility given how much they seem to hate fighters having good archetypes or abilities. What possible reason could there be for nerfing lore warden besides some sort of vindictive hatred for people who don't like spending a feat on a worthless tax like combat expertise?
Hey now, it's not worthless. Why this book apparently says it's a great feat since you need to to take so many other feats! Clearly Paizo understands, right?
...right?!
Now I imagine they're going to reprint trench fighter without gun training, mutation warrior without mutagens, and martial master without martial flexibility given how much they seem to hate fighters having good archetypes or abilities. What possible reason could there be for nerfing lore warden besides some sort of vindictive hatred for people who don't like spending a feat on a worthless tax like combat expertise?
To paraphrase, Armor training is too s#~$ty to warrant giving a useful bonus to all combat maneuvers as compensation for trading it out.
Now I imagine they're going to reprint trench fighter without gun training, mutation warrior without mutagens, and martial master without martial flexibility given how much they seem to hate fighters having good archetypes or abilities. What possible reason could there be for nerfing lore warden besides some sort of vindictive hatred for people who don't like spending a feat on a worthless tax like combat expertise?To paraphrase, Armor training is too s~!@ty to warrant giving a useful bonus to all combat maneuvers as compensation for trading it out.
Armor Training, Weapon Training, and Bravery are too s+$$ty to be anything other than fodder to trade out for more useful abilities. Give me the Quiggong version of Fighter.
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None of those options are better than what they replaced. They are existing abilities already in the class, just allowing you to get them in a different order. In fact this makes the class less rewarding as a long term investment. Hair's Breadth is massively better than all of the know thine enemy abilities. So there isn't really a reason to take the new version past level 3. As for the given reasons.
Traits do not work that way and the belief that they do indicates that the design team and the people writing the FAQs aren't on the same page.
CMDs of monsters are way to high which is why those CMB bonuses are needed. This just reduces the number of ways for players to buff their CMBs into usable levels.
Combat expertise is a terrible feat that should be given to everyone for free. Being able to avoid this unfun badly designed feat tax was a major reason people liked teh archetype.
See above this is giving us options in the same way that being laid off gives me new employment options.
The reasons are bad and the only worthwhile fighter archetype are ones that massively boost its overall power like martial master, mutation warrior, eldritch guardian, and up until this book lore warden. This is because fighter is a very poorly designed weak class.
Their free combat expertise is no longer 'free', it costs a feat and all of bravery and they get the feat at 6th level but count as having it at 2nd. Compared to only costing Bravery 1
All of bravery AND a feat, considering the LW loses some armor proficiency (another feat) from the get-go? And you don´t actually get the feat until 6th? I can understand nerfing maneuver mastery, although maneuvers need a buff if anything, but who decided that this was a good change?
I hope this stays PFS only.
Armor Training, Weapon Training, and Bravery are too s&~@ty to be anything other than fodder to trade out for more useful abilities. Give me the Quiggong version of Fighter.
The quingong works well, because the monk has a bucketful of crap features that you can trade, but the fighter does not. You get 3 (before Armor/weapon mastery) and the bonus feats, so there is less to swap. I really, really wish that the class would get a decent unchained treatment.
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Traits do exactly that.
Clever wordplay. Now diplomacy is a class skill. Bluff is. Use magic device.
So they changed it.
That was clarified in an FAQ. They receive all int-based skills as class skills. Just because a trait says you can use intelligence on a skill does not make the skill an intelligence based skill.
Cmb is still reachable. They didn't deprive you of it. Just from all of them at once for high numbers. You were going to specialize in 1 or 2 anyways if they are "to(o) high." Improved and greater combat feats. So having to choose one to focus on at the start is hardly cramping your style. What you want is to do it with a 2 on the die roll, and they didn't think it was worth the trade off. They were right.
Even at the maximum level with your best maneuver you're still going to get a bonus of 3 less than the previous version. They did deprive you.
Combat expertise is a feat needed for cmb builds. Always has been. Doesn't change my point that it wasn't the intent to make this archetype a 2 level dip.
It only needed because it's a prerequisite. Its place as a prerequisite is the only reason people use it. That's what it's a badly designed feat that should be excised from the game. That is why people resent it and look for ways to get around it. Hence why lore warden and brawler were appreciated. They kept there from being a dead feat on your build that you would never ever use.
Lastly when fixing balance one usually doesn't replace the broken thing with something "better". That's not how that works. At all. At least options were given to allow some choice in progression. Flexibility isn't to be scoffed at.
Replacing a broken thing with something better was exactly what they did with unchained rogue and unchained monk. Which was great. Both of those classes are more fun and generally better designed than what they replaced. They have been nothing but a positive influence on the game over all.
Also flexibility is something to be scoffed at if all the options are bad. Hell if fighter only feats were actually good we wouldn't be having this conversation.
The quingong works well, because the monk has a bucketful of crap features that you can trade, but the fighter does not. You get 3 (before Armor/weapon mastery) and the bonus feats, so there is less to swap. I really, really wish that the class would get a decent unchained treatment.
I'd say they should let you trade out each armor training, weapon training, and bravery level for a separate ability.
Unless the Fighter was originally built to be an Archer, that's not really anything intimidating, since at best it's a +1. At worst, you're dealing with a dedicated Archer, in which case there are actually better classes to accomplish this.[/b]Some damage is better than no damage, and can completely shut down a caster with a readied action.
The Step Up feat in and of itself isn't scary. It's the Following Step and the Step Up And Strike feats that are worth mentioning, and quite frankly, it doesn't really work in flying (a very common form of movement by mid-level). Besides that point, the Fighter had to invest 3 of his feats to make use of this, so it's still not really an excellence of combat. There are better feats he can get with those 3 feats, so Isonaroc still has a point here.Step Up means you cannot escape without incurring an attack of opportunity. An attack of opportunity means I can use a combat maneuver that prevents you from escaping at all.
Unless the Fighter's Mount scales with level (which he can't get unless he multi-classes or spends even more feats for one), that's not an issue.Feats are the one thing the fighter has plenty of.
Or, he could invest in a Figurine of Wondrous Power, or a similar item.Fighter's ability to Trip or Disarm or Blind someone requires them to not have dumped Intelligence, and to have spent a bunch of feats into making it not absolutely suck nuts. Trip is generally crappy unless you're Gargantuan size or bigger. Disarm isn't particularly applicable to numerous enemies, and Blind requires sacrificing your entire Full Attack routine to pull off properly. Only way I know of that a Fighter can Stagger is with Critical Feats, which has even worse problems than the previous maneuvers.Multiple maneuvers can be combined on a single attack with the right builds, and if the issue is "does not have pounce", then a single attack that blinds or imposes multiple conditions while inflicting damage is a good response. Cornungeon Smash + Hurtful tosses a second attack in for additional damage/conditions and step up allows even more when the opponent attempt to leave.
Not a whole lot of GMs permit content like the Toolbox books or the Master Handbooks, and very rarely will players actually have the opportunity to make use of said...House rules should never be used as an excuse as to why a class does not work for you.
Fighters? You mean those things that stopped being relevant 15 levels ago? I've thrown out their pages of the rulebooks. I have only kept the pages for wizard class features, spell lists, the spell lists of every other caster.
In fact, I've thrown out most of the rule book too. Not like it applies to me anyway!
No, not really.
Marauder has full DR 11/-, good Fort/Ref/Will saves, point control and shrugs off incoming attacks, all while having nonmagical AC of full plate, AWT: Defensive Weapon Training and Armor Training. I can't think of any other build that can do what this guy does well. A Barb? Maybe, but not without giving up protection and point-control.
Can you explain how he gets DR 11/-?
Also what makes it good all saves?
Lastly when fixing balance one usually doesn't replace the broken thing with something "better".
Perhaps you and I have very different definitions of the word broken. generally broken things SHOULD be replaced with better options whenever possible. and when it isn't possible, the broken thing should be removed.
Broken= unusable. doesn't function as intended or at all. or sometimes just excessively weak in comparison to other options.
No, not really.
Marauder has full DR 11/-, good Fort/Ref/Will saves, point control and shrugs off incoming attacks, all while having nonmagical AC of full plate, AWT: Defensive Weapon Training and Armor Training. I can't think of any other build that can do what this guy does well. A Barb? Maybe, but not without giving up protection and point-control.
Can you explain how he gets DR 11/-?
Also what makes it good all saves?
I'm curious about the DR 11/- too, unless he meant at lv19.
The good reflex save is the AWT that boosts your reflex by your weapon training amount, meaning at lv12 you have a +4 boost via gloves of dueling (it's basically been confirmed that you're assumed to have these as a fighter using AWT)
The good will save is the AWT that turns bravery into a generic will save boost, and with the Sash of the War Champion increasing it by 1 it putting you at a +4 will save via bravery.
So by getting +4 to both his bad saves at lv12 it puts them on par with being a good save. And they both continue to scale as you level netting you +6s at lv20 which is the gap between good and bad save.
I meant DR 11/- at max level of course, just like an Un Barb with 3 scoops of Increased DR.
Fighters don't suck. They can carry lot of loot. You can send them down hallways to trigger traps. When properly buffed they can buy time for your awesome spells to win the day. They are wonderful tools teammates.
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Fighters don't suck. They can carry lot of loot. You can send them down hallways to trigger traps. When properly buffed they can buy time for your awesome spells to win the day. They are wonderfulAnt haul, summon monster. There, NOW fighters are superfluous.toolsteammates.
But those cost spells slots. Fighters are free!
No they aren't, they cost you a share of the loot, and increase the difficulty of encounters. They also cost you a player that could have been more useful playing literally any other class. Ant Haul and Mount do not.
No they aren't, they cost you a share of the loot...
Do Fighters actually survive the entire adventure in your games?
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This is what kills me. Not that someone's suggesting 3p, not that it's not good (I trust Alex to put out good 3p content), but that Alex himself decided (with good reason) to rewrite the fighter to not be awful, and yet is among those who nerfed one of the few good archetypes for the class. Like out of anyone, he's the one who's is painfully aware how much more the fighter needs, he wrote the AWT (and to a lesser extent, the AAT) class features, but somehow taking away one of the few viable archetypes that the fighter has was okay.
I believe making fighter overall much more fun to play, far greater versatility and variety of options, as well with a modified stamina built-in as well as a number of the options from both the Armor Master Handbook and the Weapon Master Handbook makes up for this.
All in all it takes the new and much needed updated resources for fighters, and then some, so nerfing somewhat one of the fighter's good archetype seems to be a small price to pay. Especially if it means having a fighter that's actually fun to play with a lot of variety and choices not just a couple of good archetypes.
The only character's I've ever had Die in play were:
A Tiefling Barbarian whose motto was "Dodging is for Pussies!" (and charged an Assassin Vine wearing little to no armor).
A Human Unchained Monk who charged in melee combat with a Young Green Dragon after getting hit by its breath weapon.
Both of the two human fighters from my last campaign survived until the group disbanded around 7th level. Admittedly right before Fighters stop being awesome... giving everybody else at the table the impression that fighters don't suck.
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FIGHTY AM PRETTY OKAY. NOT AS GOOD AS BARBARIAN, BUT BARBARIAN/NOT-BARBARIAN DESTRUCITY AM PART OF GAME SINCE ULTIMATE COMBAT.
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Fighters don't suck. They can carry lot of loot. You can send them down hallways to trigger traps. When properly buffed they can buy time for your awesome spells to win the day. They are wonderfultoolsteammates.
For an optimized "person to carry stuff" might I suggest a gnomish telekineticist? Past level 4 they can carry 100 times their level weight in pounds. They need to be concentrating to do so, but since they're a gnome and weigh like 35 lbs after gear, someone can carry them.
At level 10, when they get the ability to hover as a free action you can just tie a rope to them and haul them behind you like a gnome-balloon.
No they aren't, they cost you a share of the loot, and increase the difficulty of encounters. They also cost you a player that could have been more useful playing literally any other class. Ant Haul and Mount do not.
They only cost you a share if you make sure they live. If they die, not only can you keep their share, but you can also take any gear he has on him as an added bonus for the fact that you (inadvertantly) killed him! Hurrah!
If they increase the difficulty of encounters by being there, then inversely, they decrease the difficulty of encounters by not being there. Or to put it more properly, if the Fighter is 6 feet under (like a good Fighter should be).
As for them costing a player, the God Wizard does not care about the other players of his one-man party. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, God and Satan, all wrapped up in one fashionably-knit robe. And over a dozen protective spells.
Ant Haul is too costly for levels that you'll want it (i.e. Levels 1-5), and pointless to cast for levels that you won't need it. Mount is great for lower levels, but it falls off when you actually face smart enemies who don't care about a stupid horse being in the way.
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They can finally be effective and efficient... Even if it requires multiple splat books and a Ph.D in Pathfinder.