New Experience as a GM: Does my Paladin Fall?

[Pizza Lord]

Firewarrior44 wrote:

@ Pizza Lord You misunderstood my first point and then proceeded to argue for it.

My first point was how do you consider an authority legitimate and by extension how do you tell which laws you must abide?

No, your first point was a broad, open-ended question implying that a character in a world has no inherent understanding of what an authority figure is and that the game designers need to create a specific ruling and game-term defining it or that if someone you don't agree with can't make a legally binding definition, that you don't have to agree with it. Ignoring someone's legitimate authority, even if you don't know the full or entire ramifications of it, or where it comes from, is not respecting legitimate authority. There is is no debate, that a paladin's Code requires them to do so.

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You then go on to state arbitrary/unjust laws can be ignored without a penalty however other arbitrary laws cannot be ignored without penalty.

No, and I was very clear in my reply to you. Your question was specifically about following laws that were dishonorable and evil. Specifically, they you asked about following arbitrary rules in the context that they are also dishonorable and evil.

Firewarrior44 wrote:

... you you enter a town who's laws require you to commit dishonorable or evil acts. Now you're in a position where any arbitrary local law can strip you of your powers.

I believe my reply was sufficient and you will find it correct. A paladin does not have to obey evil and dishonorable laws.

As for the remainder of the clarification to you, about obeying arbitrary rules that do not apply justly, the words are very clear that you still work within legitimate authority to change them or help those who need it, but you don't get to ignore the authority. A government charging a toll, whether it uses that money to maintain the road, pay patrols to keep it safe, pay salaries, or even just tosses it into a vault, does not make it arbitrary in the sense you can ignore it. This obviously does apply to using it for evil purposes, but it has to be directly evil; using the money to maintain an army, which might cause hardship to others if the country goes to war is not sufficient, nor is using it to build a mine, which may lead to polluting the local environment.

The the price of the toll or the 'mandatory bribe', that basically becomes what would be considered a fee, cost, or tax just of another name in reality. Whether 2 cp. or 5 sp. may seem arbitrary as well, that does not make it unjust or unfair (unless it becomes so oppressively high that it causes injustice, such as basically entrapping people in an area despite the kingdom claiming people are free to go whenever they want or preventing a citizen from accessing the rights and legal protection that they are supposed to have.) In other words, if everyone is paying the same costs and following the same rules, whether its called a tax, a bribe, a fee, or whatever doesn't make it unjust (though it can be).

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You've also stated it's OK to break laws when you feel they are unjust. Like paying a mandatory 'tithe' (bribe) to judges and officials which is no more arbitrary than a toll to cross a bridge (pay or lose powers by your argument).

Not when 'you feel' they're unjust, when they are unjust. That is a difference. You can 'feel' that all dwarves or woman are beneath contempt and deserving of no respect and that they are scheming evil creatures, that does not mean that they all actually are. If you kill an innocent dwarf, you killing an innocent dwarf. That is not protecting the innocent, even if every other dwarf you met was evil and threat to the world. If part of your Code is to protect the innocent, you violated it. If you want to start putting in exception clauses into vow, go ahead, make a long Asmodean contract between you and your deity, that is acting more Lawful Neutral than Lawful Good. A lawful or good person does not need all their actions spelled out or codified to tell them how acting honorably, nobly, or for the good of others is.

I was also very clear that just because you think a law is arbitrary or doesn't apply to you, that doesn't mean it is unjust. A law against theft still applies to a paladin, even if they would never ever even consider stealing. Similarly, a paladin who passes a toll gate and declares that he shouldn't pay the toll of everyone else to maintain the road because he is airwalking and won't be causing wear and tear, is not showing a respect for the same rules everyone else follows (which are lawful and fair in this case for everyone travelling the road, even if some tolls are higher for some people than others, merchants bringing in good, people with carts or pack animals which causes more wear and tear.)

A paladin takes time to understand the laws and the authority they are in the domain of. They give it the respect that it had a good reason for why their rules exist unless they expressly learn otherwise, and does not assume that he is the ultimate be-all-end-all judge of what works for everyone else. You don't get to ride into town and just declare their laws null and void.
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On the issue of atonement.

You're honestly saying that a Paladin can expect to Pay 500 - 3000 gold (spell-casting services are not free, and knowingly breaking [their Code of Conduct] by your logic automatically adds 2500 gp to the cost) for a 5th level spell more or less every time he goes out to fight evil in addition to losing his powers at the first arbitrary legal obstacle he encounters.

Yes, I am honestly telling that that is what the atonement spell does. I swear, I am not just making it up. When you require atonement for a violation, if your transgression was innocent or unintentional, it is free. Otherwise it is not.

Atonement wrote:

If the atoning creature committed the evil act [it uses 'evil act' here, but again the spell states it applies to other actions that violate class abilities later] unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you.

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and knowingly breaking [their Code of Conduct] by your logic automatically adds 2500 gp to the cost)...

Yes, I am honestly telling that every time you need atonement because of a deliberate action (I will assume because you are using 'break a law' in the example that breaking a law is against one of your vows, though a baseline paladin does not have such a vow, yours might), then yes, the cost increases. You are also correct on the cost.

Atonement wrote:

However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 2,500 gp in rare incense and offerings)

If your actions were deliberate, 'deliberate' in this case does not imply sinister or malicious, meaning that you had control of you faculties and took the action that caused the loss of stature with your deity, it will cost you. You can still benefit from it, but the fact that the action wasn't forced through magical coercion or an honest mistake means that greater measures must be taken.

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spell-casting services are not free

There are many examples where spell-casters, specifically church, temples, and priests perform services at cost basically or can waive them when it clearly is for the greater good. Typically, the sale of holy water, blessings (obviously the actual spell-casting kinds, though some religions charge for 'mundane' blessings and rituals,) I don't think anyone would disagree that when the situation is specifically one that calls out that it is at no cost to them, they will do it at no cost. They don't have to, of course, they could charge 1,000,000 gp. if they want (I don't think that would ever reasonably happen, but the point is they could.) Certainly in the case of a specific NPC in a game, maybe they don't personally like you, or maybe they are trying to gather funds for some personal project or charity and they might request a donation or charge a fee, but I think most people would agree that it's going to be at no cost usually, because that's what the spell specifically says.

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You're also in a position where knowingly killing an Evil high priest who is directly working against your faith (raising hoards of undead / blood sacrifice of orphans what have you) will instantly cost you all of you powers and abilities to fight evil until you can find a 9th+ level cleric and pay 3,000 gold for atonement as you willingly broke a law of the city that say do not kill Priests (city is LN).

No. A paladin does what is right to protect innocents, be honorable and moral, or respect legitimate authority. IF they must work with the authority to bring the cleric to justice they will. If they can't murder him (because killing him when it is against the law is murder) then he will find some other way to protect the cleric's victims or to drive him off or reveal his true nature. After that point, if it becomes apparent that the government, deity, or whatever authority is in charge is assisting or directly aiding the evil acts, then he takes other measures as appropriate, continuing to act in an honorable and moral manner.

Breaking a law is not part of the paladin's Code of Conduct.

You keep trying to imply that a paladin should or shouldn't fall for taking actions that may violate their Code, but you keep changing what your example paladin's code is or never stating it. That is why continuously and consistently, this thread has focused on the Code of Conduct listed under the Paladin class. That way every reader, poster, and person participating is on the same page. It being respectful and you not implying that you are secretly referring to some obscure paladin, specific tenet, or cult allow a corner case, thus forcing everyone who takes time to look up rules, classes, features, spells, etc. to no guess where to look or click through every variant or deity and seek out their dogma.

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killing an Evil high priest

Is it a violation of your Code to kill? Is it a violation to kill a priest? Then yes, if you do this, you lose your power.

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who is directly working against your faith

This would just be a qualifier or excuse for something else. Unless you Code is to specifically kill those working against your faith, which if your god is a god of war, would mean you kill priest who follow a god of peace, or your god is a god of cities and civilization your would kill followers of nature or natural environs. I don't think any such Code of Conduct would be written in the case where it would equal the one set forth in the rules (if you want to allow deities with other vows you can, and should, but they should equal the original Code in conduct and exemplifying morality, discipline, and honor.) 'Kill those who are against my ideals' is certainly a philosophy or code of conduct... but it is not one that exemplifies morality, for instance.

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...will instantly cost you all of you powers and abilities to fight evil...

Yes. It's not my opinion. If you take an action that causes you to lose your powers, you immediately lose your powers, as stated in the rules. I am not making this up. The only thing being made up, is what your Code of Conduct says, which you are never stating, so we can only go by what everyone agrees on as written, which is listed under the Paladin class (I don't have a link currently.)

When you violate your code, which in your example we are assuming you did, you lose your powers. You must atone to restore them. That's not an opinion. I will state however, that you are not correct that you lose your 'abilities to fight evil'. You lose the features stated, which may be most of a Paladin's granted powers, but you never, ever lose the ability to do what's right or to fight evil or injustice just because you can't detect evil or smite it. You are still expected to act as a paladin even while fallen, otherwise you are not considered to be seeking restitution. Game-wise or mechanically you could probably say "Well, I may as well just take this time to act dishonorably and steal as much as I can (as long as it isn't enough to actually change my alignment) and it's all the same as long as I get a spell. That falls into role-playing territory and whether your character is actually being willful in transgressions (and there's no telling what differing GM's would rule or view, I personally consider the actions a player states that their PC says and does as a fair indicator, but that's not something I would force on others.)
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entering the castle of an evil vampire king (who is the legitimate authority of the land) who murders his people and raises them as undead causes instant loss of powers as the decree of the land is no one but those the king has designated may enter the castle.

A person murdering people is a murderer, whether a king, a kobold, a vampire, or a paladin (I would say a fallen paladin, but regardless.) They are harming innocents and must be stopped, that could mean destroyed, that could mean banished, that could mean sealed away forever or sent to another plane, it could be somehow restoring them to life and letting them make things right (the are the legitimate rulers, according to you, and it logically would be easier for them to fix their problems and transgressions then if you had to stay and rebuild everything.)

Breaking a law to protect someone's life is allowed. There is no falling for breaking a law (again, unless you are saying that's your paladin's vow. I'm not saying that, but you keep stating it nonetheless.) As for respecting the legitimate authority, you still must do so. What does that mean? That means that if the vampire lord has a law against killing in his domain (even if his intent is that he wants to keep all his subjects and their blood for himself), you don't get to ignore that or go around killing the people to starve and deprive the evil vampire.

Similarly if the ruler declared that wheat imports have an additional 2 gp. tariff, the paladin cannot then illegally smuggle wheat into the city just because the ruler is evil, or a vampire, or turns out to be a woman. If it turns out that the law is causing people to starve, that is a different story, but a paladin would try to find other ways to feed people or get other foods before he even considered violating the laws (which could begin to encroach on his vows, but may not).

If one of tje laws is that you must be off the street at night, then you should be off the street at night. If this law turns out to be a tactic to keep people from aiding others (or even if it isn't, but turns out to be in a specific situation or night) then a paladin can and will go outside to do what's right (but they won't then use that opportunity to continue going around or take it as permission to break other laws without just cause.)
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I read your quote as:

"A Paladin can break any law so long as they think they are Justified in doing so. The Paladin will not fall as a result of breaking that law if their motive for doing so is in adherence to the Paladin's code and ethos. It does not make them immune to legal repercussions but, it does mean they would not Fall as a result."

Then you are misunderstanding it. It's not whether 'they think they are justified' the actually have to be justified. That is not the same thing. And again, breaking a law does not cause a Paladin (the one as written) to lose their powers, I understand if you are referring to some variant or other deity's code that might say so, in which case you would be correct if they are forbidden to break any laws. I think that would cause unnecessary restriction, respecting Legitimate Authority is not the same, though following the laws is one way of doing so.

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What confuses me is your position seems to omit the very last part (not falling). The notion that upholding/sticking to your principles and values would cause you to fall is patently absurd to me.

And what confuses me is that you claim to have principles and values, such as "I will not lie" or "I will accept surrender" or "I will pray once per day" or whatever it is that your code is, but that when you violate it, you shouldn't be punished because you can rationalize it. That is the opposite of upholding and sticking to your principles. If you Vow to abstain from alcohol, you don't dismiss you vow because someone slipped some rum into the punch and drank it or you didn't realize a Long Island Iced Tea wasn't just tea. In the case of a paladin, they would lose their power when they violate their oath and principle and they must atone (though it would be at no cost and basically amounts to being a humble request for forgiveness for a cleric of your faith, don't really need to directly intercede with your deity except for deliberate misdeeds.) Does this mean a bad guy who is aware of your oath could cause you trouble by tricking you into drinking alcohol to cause you a temporary loss of power? Yes. They can. That's not unheard of or impossible to believe as a tactic. It's certainly dishonorable, and if they were a paladin they would lose their powers when they did it to (only they'd have to pay 2,500 gp. in penance to get their power back.)

[Trinam]

Pizza Lord wrote:

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Okay but what if the orphanage they're setting on fire only houses baby goblins?

[Steelfiredragon]

ok, cant believe I read through the final posts.....

did the paladin fall? no. cant say more without details.

another thing. people write things differently and are not took the way the poster meant it....

By order of the Godclaw: move along now. nothing to see here

[BigNorseWolf]

Trinam wrote:

Pizza Lord wrote:

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Okay but what if the orphanage they're setting on fire only houses baby goblins?

They'll probably enjoy the inferno and you will never. Ever. Be a suspect in the investigation.

[Tabernero]

When in doubt... DO NOT PUNISH THE PLAYER.

[Firewarrior44]

So when does a Law become unjust? Your Position still seems to be "When I feel it is unjust" you haven't provided any hard rule indicating how you determine when a law can and cannot be ignored. And as you keeps saying "Feeling a law is unjust" is insufficient grounds to ignore a law we are left with the only logical end being you must follow every law.

What you are describing is an untenable situation which actively hinders a Paladin from fighting evil while simultaneously empowering despots who hold authority. They would be in a better position to serve their god ideals and convictions by picking levels in fighter as then they wouldn't run the risk of losing all their abilities and a 3,000 gp fine* for jay walking.

*(No the rules clearly state the cost of spell casting services so "but it could be free because fiat" is not a defense. Doubly so if you consider you could be in a [Evil] nation with only [Evil] priests who simply would refuse).

We are in agreeance that you must abide by whatever tenants your code espouses. What we are not in agreement about is that breaking a local law causes loss of Paladin powers.

My Position is this laws broken in fulfilling the other Tenements of the Paladins code do not carry Divine repercussions. You respect authority up until it clashes with your code at which point the code takes Precedence (the parts other than respect legitimate authority). He can break laws, but with purpose and not wantonly. If he broke a law in service to his tenants then he would be (possibly) obligated/inclined to submit to those legal repercussions but would not lose his powers.

[Blackwaltzomega]

My rule of thumb with codes of conduct is "if you have to ask if the Paladin would fall, the answer is no."

Unless it is specifically enshrined in that particular Paladin's code that they are obligated to accept surrender, they are not, and if the action is not an egregious violation of their code then you should not turn off all of their class features until a high-level NPC feels like giving them back.

A paladin should fall if they do something grossly out of keeping with the code they live by or cease to be Lawful Good by their own free will. Not because they got punk'd by a bad guy or did something a LG Fighter wouldn't bat an eye at doing.

It is more honorable and probably more morally praiseworthy to arrest the surrendering enemy and ensure this isn't just a way for him to live to fight another day, but it is not morally essential, particularly if the paladin's seen the evil cult leader-types try to pull the old "I surrender, suckers" trick one time too many.

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

Pizza Lord wrote:

I know it may seem frustrating, but don't assume it's pointless because I have a differing view. You don't have to convince me anymore than I feel I have to convince you. We're never going to meet or play together. You are bringing up good points, or asking questions and I feel I have something to contribute. Just because it may seem like a bickering argument at times doesn't mean there isn't value to the discussion. Others who come looking for similar answers to the OP might find interesting points of view they hadn't considers... assuming they make the effort. It's not a bad thing that they have things to consider and contemplate.

More patronizing.

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Because you have sworn to Respect Legitimate Authority (or some other Vow, which should be of equal stature to convey that you are honorable, just, and held to a higher moral standard.) It's what you swore to do when you became a paladin. That's why you are held to those standards. The fact they have a Code of Conduct is as innately linked to their paladin essence as their bonded mount or their link to their deity and beliefs.

When authority requires you to let people die lest you potentially find out someone's alignment it ceases to be legitimate. Code of conducted is linked to Paladins but it is not the code that makes them fall it is the god. The power does not come from the code.

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No, no one is talking about whether a Paladin has the right to kill great forces of evil (to quote you).

wrong. That is exactly what the thread is about.

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The question is whether a paladin's actions while doing so can cause them to fall. I don't know if someone else has said they cannot do so, I certainly didn't.

You stipulated they can fall. These two sentences you put together don't make sense or connect, Just FYI.

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However, just because you are fighting great evil doesn't mean you can act dishonorably, use poisoned weapons, lie, cheat, or sacrifice others to succeed.

Irrelevant.

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This does apply to using such tactics against the 'great force of evil' as well. Saying that a paladin continues to act with honor, fight honorably, and upholds morality means that somehow they cannot fight evil is what sound disingenuous. That's clearly untrue.

yet it is your argument. Your argument simply argues that putting red tape in their way doesn't stop them doing there job. It does.

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Absolutely, but how did they come to that belief? Was it because they saw something suspicious? Was it because they were an elf? Was it because they made a Perception and a Knowledge check to recognize a tattoo or insignia ring that indicated a certain allegiance?

It doesn't matter. They genuinely believe lives are at risk. That is the end. The genuine part is the important bit here.

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If they have that suspicion already... why do they need to break the law?

Because suspicion =/= fact and violating someones civil liberties is better than wrongly murdering them. This is obvious.

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If they investigate within the law

People died whilst they were wasting time not using their god given powers but thank god they didn't brake the law. The law is the be all and end all after all.

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and find the person truly guilty, does it matter whether they are evil or neutral (or even a good person forced to commit an action against the town?) Do you see what I am getting at?

yes and its irrelevant to the question which concerns an evil priest.

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It might be more convenient to just go around detecting for evil, but that is actually laziness and causes complacency

or to put it another way, saves lives.

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I don't know, I've never met him.

This is being obtuse/sarcastic/mocking. Take your pick.

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I assume you are referring to a specific deity

Obviously.

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in a specific campaign that allows an exception to a certain aspect of something. As has been stated in many places, exceptions can always exist, but pointing out that there are exceptions to a rule for one specific situation as a reason that that there should be no rule at all is not appropriate.

The fact there are literally hundreds of exceptions shows your way of ruling doesn't work. This is not the same as saying there should be no ruling.

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I don't really care how Torag feels, he's not in charge of the paladin class. As a god he can do things that bend or alter rules that others abide by. If anything in the universe can be evil and decide to have Lawful Good followers and even grant them powers despite all logic, the answer is probably a deity.

Torag isn't evil, he may not conform to your version of good. Those two things are different.

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He's certainly welcome to grant any powers he wishes to any class, person, or alignment he desires, whether they are exactly like a paladin's powers or not. That's not the point.

Well actually it kind of is. The code doesn't grant powers some force does, that is what matters in these less straight forward cases.

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Let me ask you, does Torag believe in the law?

there is no one law.

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You ask whether he should care that you acted unlawfully because you happened to use it on a dwarf (who happened to actually be evil).

Nope you miss understood the example. By dwarf murderer I mean person who murders dwarfs. This should be obvious.

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Let me ask you? Was the reason he was evil because he was a dwarf or was it because he had black hair?

argument diffused due to your miss understanding.

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Would it be okay for Torag if you had broken the law by invading the privacy of someone who turned out to not be evil, and you had just violated their rights and the law?

Depends on the context.

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If he doesn't have a problem with you abusing innocents (even if it appears harmless to you, like spying on a woman or child changing clothes, it doesn't hurt them and maybe you'll see a birthmark that might mean they're witches in league with the devils, so it's in pursuit of rooting out evil)

incredibly offensive and impertinent insinuation that I think spying on women and children is harmless which has no grounding in what I said. Doing detect evil does not equate to spying on children.

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and your crime, because you are not denying that you broke the law, never comes to light? Maybe you think he's cool with that and maybe he is. That's not my idea of acting honorably or morally.

nor is it anything to do with the point.

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Assuming your code does not require you to accept a surrender.

No No NO It requires you to NOT accept surrender, these things are different.

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However, it is highly likely that the paladin will have made such a belief very clear. If they plan to accept no quarter, then either as they face their foe or when the foe tries to surrender, they will make that clear. Even if with a statement of 'No quarter'.

nonesense there is nothing anywhere suggesting a paladin must shout his beliefs at every enemy he faces.

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They will not accept taking advantage of a foe through a deception, even by an omission of the truth. If they are proud of their belief and code, they have no reason to not make it clear. That is honorable, allowing an enemy, even an evil one, to know your intentions. If you make up a paladin that doesn't act with honor... then you are likely using a variant paladin. If your specific setting has paladins that are always known to slay surrendering foes, then presumably they will be clearly identifiable at the very least, by their symbols.

There is no deception there is also no responsibility to hold a seminar on your beliefs. If the enemy doesn't know that isn't your problem.

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I am not even saying a normal paladin is forced to do so, only that they are clearly required to act with honor and that accepting an honorable surrender (even evil creatures can have honor) is likely viewed as more honorable than taking advantage of them when they ask for something that is perfectly reasonable to ask for among foes. If slaying a surrendering foe is considered dishonorable (and for most people they will say it is, but even if they don't agree and it still turns out to be dishonorable) they fall.

there is no honor is giving up because you're dead if you don't thats cowardice. Complete immunity from death is not a reasonable request for an evil priest to make. You do not fall for killing evil priests.

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No, Gods already have super-soldiers. They have angels, archons, devas, and planetars that make your ability to summon a warpony and magic fingers look laughable.

we're talking about the materiel plane, no?

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Gods grant paladins their powers because they are held to a higher standard, because they strive to do the right thing in the right way and they act as an example of what a mortal can be when they sacrifice doing things the easy way and devote themselves to doing things that exemplify Law and Good.

held to a higher standard =/= context blind morons. Its not about doing things the easy way, its about doing things with the least potential casualties.

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A paladin has made a vow and the deity has accepted they will be as true to it as they can. If that vow was to never lie, the paladin is expected to never lie. Otherwise, they lied to the deity themselves. They are no different than any single other class or creature that exists in the world, as such... they may as well have the same powers and abilities as a normal creature.

what point are you making?

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You are saying deities and religions do not have animals they hold sacred? It's not possible that some animal is considered holy? Or are just dismissing them because such a religion must be stupid and not worth taking seriously.

strawman get back to me when you can address my point.

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Rabbit was an example. It could be a dove, it could be a cow, it could be a lion. It is not far-fetched to believe that there exists laws or rules within a religious hierarchy that pertain to the treatment of such creatures, protecting them or providing for them. You seem puzzled that if an animal becomes ill, old and enfeebled, or even rabid and dangerous that there might be a specific, codified law of who, how, or when they may be treated, even if that treatment is ultimately euthanizing or putting them down.

If the treatment for rabid monster rabbit is anything other than put it down the religion is not lawful good.

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So what now? You feel you can ignore your deity's religious edicts too as well as the laws of a kingdom because you don't comprehend all the schemes, history, or plans of an extraplanar being of near infinite power?

No.

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The point is, it doesn't matter whether you think your vow is silly, if you felt you just took a vow because it was seemingly meaningless and you thought you'd never have to actually role-play it or that the rule would never apply to you, that is not a failing of the Paladin class or the rules. That is just a person trying to get an in-game advantage and benefit. Not saying you're evil, but claiming that is the intent of the paladin class is not going to fly.

The point if you're lawful good watching innocent die to a chaotic evil rabbit is not lawful good.

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Maybe you can't understand. Maybe others can, I can accept your disbelief that a deity may feel protective, understanding, or require proper respect for a certain creature. You certainly have no problem believing a god can treat a different race with no honor or respect. It doesn't seem silly to me.

Can you maybe stop acting as if I invented torag and address the fact he is a core deity whose tenants disprove your argument.

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This is patently untrue, and while I have no problems conversing and debating with you. I will not have someone lie about what I have said (miscommunication or misunderstandings happen, but that is one reason I try my best to be clear and as thorough in my replies as I can, despite some people trying to make me feel bad about it.)

No it isn't you will not have LAWFUL GOOD paladins defend people from chaotic evil rabbits because rabbits are holy, you will not have paladins kill evil priests because they said, please don't kill me, you will not have paladins use detect evil because its rude, all these things can lead to death because you're being ridiculously strict.

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At no time have I ever said a paladin will knowingly or willingly let innocents die because they must follow a law.

you just omit the bit about them dying.

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I am quite sure that a paladin will break a law to protect an innocent or save a life. Such as walking on sacred, forbidden ground to quickly reach a person in danger or knocking someone out of the way of a charging horse or wagon even if that class or type of person is deemed 'untouchable' (because of royalty, station, or holiness.) Again, as stated many times, the Paladin Code of Conduct does not state Break No Laws, it states Respect Legitimate Authority.

which you seem to think is every authority who can put pen to paper and that it is always the paladin that must be put on trial not the authority with the rules that facilitated the death of innocent people.

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If you are protecting a life (and this means imminent danger or threat, not some potential fear of a future threat)

There is no reason to eliminate potential fear of future threat if said fear has reasonable basis other than the fact it ruins your argument.

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then your actions are justified, you still suffer the consequences of your actions (whatever those may be, either from the law or whatever authority, even your deity, has jurisdiction over you. Just because a god has jurisdiction does not also mean you aren't under the jurisdiction of the kingdom and its laws as well.

the only jurisdiction this thread cares about is that of your god, its a thread about falling.

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If you acted honorably or the transgression was truly for the good, then the atonement is free.

or illogical pointless and unnecessary.

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Basically a simple act of humility and acknowledgement that it is at your deity's whim that you are a paladin at all. If you feel you don't need to do so for your deity by honoring your Code and vows, then you are being dis-respective of yet another legitimate authority.

you've listed exactly 1 authority with legitimacy and stated that disrespecting them is done through following their rules. Make sense.

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Okay, so this wasn't really how you feel, you were just using it as an excuse to call people obtuse because you don't agree them.

No, I think if people are punishing people for killing bad guys in this game, where bad is a quantifiable, they're being obtuse. Especially if they're punishing the direct soldiers of good for killing bad.

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It really makes me reconsider how I feel about listening to your opinions and the consideration and time I have spent up to this point replying to you.

I don't care.

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I happen to think this game is about more than killing bad guys, I think it has a lot more to offer and I happen to think a lot of people agree with that. Deal with it.

I do to. I don't think it is about tripping people up over legal jargon and making playing the game so obnoxiously difficult that it is no longer fun. Deal. With. It.

look I can be obnoxious too.

[Steelfiredragon]

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

ok. this is the core paladin code of conduct.

nowhere does it say must obey laws.
what it does say is that you must respect legit authority.
what this means that if said mayor, Governor, duke, sheriff, your superior officer, and ruler.

which would say that if you accept a quest to take care of Jack the Ripper, you take care of jack the ripper either by subduing him and take him into custody , or kill him.

if said authoritative figure mandates you take him into custody unless its not possible to do so.

so if jack the ripper was surrendering after you killed his minions to avoid his death and was denied quarter that said paladin did not respect legit authority by killing him onsite instead of knocking him out.( now if your paladin was in fact female, you could argue it all you want taht she didnt feel safe letting him live) and if he didn't surrender, and you kill him then its oh well. just dont lie about it as it would be dishonorable.