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So I was doing some hunting around of ideas for a New character and really wanted to make a Duel Wielding Repeating hand crossbow build for my next home campaign, just a bit of backstory Im not allowed to play a Gunslinger (Or Bolt Ace) so I was thinking of doing a Fighter (Weapon Master Archetype) But I have no idea what kind of Feat Train I would do to allow me to come online around level 9-10 ish area, I know the basic Ranged feats and Two-weapon Fighting feats are need but not much else other then that.
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I wouldn't say unplayable, but it will be challenging. I'm going to give this a try.
Although I'd prefer to splash the Bolt Ace into this build, it can be done without it. Also, as both TWF and Archery (especially Crossbows) take a lot of feats, combining them requires a lot of bonus feats.
First, proficiency. Going Half-Elf or Human can provide you with the necessary feat. I picked Human for this build, as I also like skill points. The build consists of a Monk/Fighter combi.
Here is the build I thought up. The bolded feats are those gained through leveling.
Str 10 - Dex 18 - Con 14 - Int 12 - Wis 15 - Cha 7
1. Far Strike Monk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Quick Draw, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, EWP: Hand Crossbow
2. Far Strike Monk 2: Point Blank Shot, Evasion
3. Mutation Warrior 1: Rapid Shot, Crossbow Mastery
4. Mutation Warrior 2: Weapon Focus (Hand Crossbow), Bravery +1
5. Mutation Warrior 3: Mutagen, Two-Weapon Fighting
6. Mutation Warrior 4: Weapon Specialization
7. Mutation Warrior 5: Weapon Training 1 (Crossbows), Advanced Weapon Training: Focused Weapon
8. Mutation Warrior 6: Deadly Aim, Bravery +2
9. Mutation Warrior 7: Vestigial Arm, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10. Mutation Warrior 8: Greater Weapon Focus (Hand Crossbow)
11. Mutation Warrior 9: Weapon Training 2 (Crossbow), Armed Bravery, Improved Critical (Hand Crossbow)
The reason for Mutation Warrior is the Vestigial Arm. Eventually, the 5 bolt clip each Repeating Hand Crossbow has will empty like crazy, and the extra arm allows you to reload them during firing. Until that thing comes online, you'll have to make do with the Quick Draw Feat and carry some extra Hand Crossbows with you (two empty crossbows --> drop first, reload second as free, draw third, continue firing)
At the moment, the feats are placed mostly to preserve as much attack bonus as possible. The Rapid Shot, TWF and Deadly Aim feats all cut away at your to hit, so it will take a while to get the damage going. If your more confident at your to hit, you can switch some around for earlier damage output.
As already stated, you'll need lots of bonuses to your to hit to make the most out TWF with Hand Crossbows. Magic items are your friend in this: the Cracked Pale Green Prism grants a +1 competence bonus, and the Gloves of Dueling is of course a nobrainer, as is the Dexterity Belt. Furthermore, friends who can cast Heroism and Haste. You'll need all the to hit that you can get.
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Although the Shadowshooting enchantment is very nice, and makes Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery obsolete, I find that it requires a good static bonus to damage to actually be worth it. This is why I kept it out of the build I sended in, because that build is quite low on damage until much later.
It isn't a bad enchantment, but it would be so much more useful in combination with the Bolt Ace. Without it, that low Will save DC is just in the way for any potential damage you could be doing (like by taking Advanced Weapon Training: Focused Weapon). Difference might not be much, but people will likely make the save against the enchantment so they only take minimal damage.
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Just to make sure: you are aware of the general limitation of repeating crossbows that makes them difficult to duel-wield no matter how many reload-related feats you take?
The repeating crossbow (whether heavy or light) holds 5 crossbow bolts. As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand or fire a repeating crossbow in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size. However, you must fire the weapon with two hands in order to use the reloading lever, and you must use two hands to load a new case of bolts.
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Just to make sure: you are aware of the general limitation of repeating crossbows that makes them difficult to duel-wield no matter how many reload-related feats you take?
The repeating crossbow (whether heavy or light) holds 5 crossbow bolts. As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand or fire a repeating crossbow in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size. However, you must fire the weapon with two hands in order to use the reloading lever, and you must use two hands to load a new case of bolts.
I seem to have missed that sentence when I theorycrafted my proposed build. That makes it even more problematic, and requires that Vestigial Arm even faster for reloading purposes. So instead of Mutation Warrior, 2 levels of Alchemist early on might be required to just handle that problem.
Hand crossbows + rapid reload are the way to do this.
Ignore repeating crossbows, they aren't worth it in the long run.
Play as a fighter. 10 str, max dex. Weapon training, gloves of dueling, weapon spec, greater weapon spec. TWF, ITWF. Rapid Shot should work though the -4 (-2 from TWF, and -2 from rapid shot) might be a bit much.
You still need all the normal archery feats like point blank shot, precise shot, etc except for many shot.
You do basically need a 3rd arm to reload both weapons, so Mutation warrior as pointed out by Mr. Bonkers is a solid choice to get the vestigial arm to hold things for you.
Personally, I would recommend against multiclassing since you will delay weapon training.
Otherwise, Mr. Bonkers suggestion are pretty solid.
Oh, you also don't need Crossbow Mastery. Though not explicitly stated, when the reload time is reduced from a move action to a free action with Rapid Reload is should also make reloading not provoke, although firing a ranged attack still provokes. Ultimately, it will only make a difference if a creature has combat reflexes since they could get multiple AoO (one for reloading and one for firing). Otherwise you would just 5ft step away. And in my experience most monsters don't have Combat Reflexes.
Quickdraw lets you full attack with thrown weapons.
At high level you can have 8 Javelins of Returning and Distance, in your Efficient Quiver.
I have a Dwarven Ranger (TWF - Urgrosh) who's a strength build with a bandoleer of darts. Similar idea, but the darts are his "switch hitter" mode.
Umm...we're not doing a thrown weapon build though
If your willing to give up the dual wielding a Urouge with a slaver's crossbow can be pretty brutal
If you want to use repeating weapons grab a wand of abundant ammunition and tap it to your bolt clips
Training enchant(inner sea intrigue) can help a lot with getting the feats you need earlier
6 levels in ranger with net you crossbow mastery without ever having to take rapid reload
free action reloading still provokes only non action reloading doesn't provoke such as knocking an arrow or reloading a light cross bow with rapid reload and crossbow master and non action reloading also allows you to reload them on other peoples turns when you shoot so you can make use of the snap shot feat line
You're right, to a point. Reloading will still provoke, that's what I get for going from memory and not rereading the feat. Honestly I've never tried building a crossbow user because they're blatantly worse than bows in ever capacity.
That said, since Snap Shot reduced the range at which you threaten it's really not a great set of feats anymore in my opinion.
And my overall point about provoking was more that most enemies don't have combat reflexes, and if you were going to provoke for reloading you were also going to provoke for firing (unless you find a way to get Point Blank Master). So for most of your career, getting Crossbow Mastery isn't particularly essential .
snap shot is 5ft threaten, improved is 10ft threatened.
Personally, I've not see the need to not provoke. The only times I've heard of a need are when the GM is giving many enemies Step up and combat reflexes. And the times where you will provoke and can't 5ft step shouldn't be an issue, you still have a good amount of HP and AC if you're smart so what's 1 extra hit for the ability to kill the guy?
Like I've seen a handful of people take PBM to not provoke, all saying they are so glad to have this, and I've yet to see it used once.
snap shot is 5ft threaten, improved is 10ft threatened.
Personally, I've not see the need to not provoke. The only times I've heard of a need are when the GM is giving many enemies Step up and combat reflexes. And the times where you will provoke and can't 5ft step shouldn't be an issue, you still have a good amount of HP and AC if you're smart so what's 1 extra hit for the ability to kill the guy?
Like I've seen a handful of people take PBM to not provoke, all saying they are so glad to have this, and I've yet to see it used once.
i take it to avoid provoking against some large or larger creatures
and awww it used to be 5 and 15 :(
And my response is, How often are they reaching you? If it's like all the time, then it makes sense, but it's begging the question WHY enemies are always on top of you.
They had to move normally up to you with 1 movement and 1 hit or double move to you. If they moved and no allies are in reach already that means that someone is going to need to provoke it to be able to hit it (assuming medium allies) So you can delay and let the ally take the hit for you, or take one for the team and do the provoking.
Cause if they charged you to get into range then you're still able to 5ft back and full attack. And they will either 5ft and full attack or be weird and move up and hit once. In which case you should be happy to provoke once cause you already avoided the full attack.
Also and probably a bigger question, WHY are your party's tactics so bad that the front liners aren't able to keep enemies off the back line?
snap shot was reduced? i thought it was 5 for the base feat and 15 for the next onefree action reloading still provokes only non action reloading doesn't provoke such as knocking an arrow or reloading a light cross bow with rapid reload and crossbow master and non action reloading also allows you to reload them on other peoples turns when you shoot so you can make use of the snap shot feat lineYou're right, to a point. Reloading will still provoke, that's what I get for going from memory and not rereading the feat. Honestly I've never tried building a crossbow user because they're blatantly worse than bows in ever capacity.
That said, since Snap Shot reduced the range at which you threaten it's really not a great set of feats anymore in my opinion.
And my overall point about provoking was more that most enemies don't have combat reflexes, and if you were going to provoke for reloading you were also going to provoke for firing (unless you find a way to get Point Blank Master). So for most of your career, getting Crossbow Mastery isn't particularly essential .
Not anymore. It used to be.
Now it's 5ft for the first, and an additional 5 for the 2nd feat.
It was worth it at 15ft threaten range, but I just don't think 10ft is enough, not at the expense of 2 feats. At least not until much later in the game when you've gotten all the other archery feats first.
I also think that depending on the environment the ability to shoot at melee without provoking can be really useful. One of my party members in Reign of Winter was an archer and had that feat. It didn't come to play all the time but it did enough to be useful. Most of the campaign takes place on environments where you cannot make a 5ft step because of difficult terrain (even though I admit that there are many means to overcome that). You can also be fighting a creature that threatens more than 5ft because of size and a 5ft step won't be useful.
So being able to do a full attack without threatening can make a difference.
It's a situational feat, but I still find it useful. The optimal would be of course staying out of threat range, but there can be too many reasons for that not being possible. If it comes to play too often you're probably using wrong tactics, but even if it only happens from time to time it might be worth a feat.
Now we don't have the ranger in our group and have an archer inquisitor without that feat, and I'm noticing the difference, specially in surprise attacks. Yesterday a bunch of Huge enemies popped out from the ground and we were surrounded. The Inquisitor had to switch to melee (what he can do fine enough at least).
Anyone suggested tieflings yet?
Their Prehensile Tail racial trait allows you to shift a weapon from your hand into your tail, as it counts as a hand for holding stuff and shifting your grip on weapons. Therefore you can shift a crossbow from one hand into the tail to reload the one you're still holding. This is a pretty important tool for any ranged dual-wielding build.
Let's hash this out as a Tiefling Fighter. Throw in archetypes as you see fit but personally I just like vanilla since you can get AAT and AWT. If you can't get those I'm...so sorry. You'll also have a damage problem. I'm sorry again. Nothing that can be done about that.
Attributes (20pb)
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 8
1st: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2nd: Rapid Reload (hand crossbow)
3rd: Rapid Shot
4th: Deadly Aim
5th: Two-weapon Fighting
6th: Improved Two-weapon Fighting
7th: Weapon Focus (hand crossbow)
8th: Greater Weapon Focus (hand crossbow)
9th: Weapon Specialisation (hand crossbow)
I do agree with the idea that restricting Bolt Ace of all classes is absolutely ludicrous given that it is meant to be a happy medium between gun-haters and people who like Gunslinger, but I suppose it isn't the end of the world.
Although the Shadowshooting enchantment is very nice, and makes Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery obsolete, I find that it requires a good static bonus to damage to actually be worth it. This is why I kept it out of the build I sended in, because that build is quite low on damage until much later.
It isn't a bad enchantment, but it would be so much more useful in combination with the Bolt Ace. Without it, that low Will save DC is just in the way for any potential damage you could be doing (like by taking Advanced Weapon Training: Focused Weapon). Difference might not be much, but people will likely make the save against the enchantment so they only take minimal damage.
Shadowshooting is fantastic for Small-sized characters with one-handed ranged weapons since they get all their damage from bonuses anyways. Even if you're not two-weapon fighting, it means you can forgo using an alchemical cartridge with a firearm (thereby not increasing the misfire range). Kobolds and Goblins rejoice!
For decent damage bonuses, Gunslingers get Dex to damage and Gun Training (or better version for Pistolero), Fighters get Weapon Training and access to Fighter feats, Paladins get Smite Evil, and Cavaliers and Samurai get Challenge (with the latter also qualifying for Fighter feats). High-level Inquisitors might like it with the Destruction Judgement, and an Eldritch Archer Magus might use it for making full-attacks with multi-use spells (at 10th level, they get access to Fighter feats, too, and yes, Eldritch Archer works with firearms and crossbows).
Also, Martial Focus isn't as good as Weapon Specialization by itself, but it's available to anyone with +5 BAB and helps you eventually qualify for Burrowing Shot, which is great and makes it less likely for the opponent to save against further Shadowshooting attacks.
Out of curiosity, why will your GM not allow Bolt Ace?
Another option to look at would be to just use Shadow Shooting Hand Crossbows, they are expensive so you wouldnt have them online until you can afford two +2 weapons but they save massive investments of feats and free up class and archetype choices.
I could see myself denying it; using a physical weapon on Touch AC at lvl. 1 seems a bit much. I'd have to look at it more, but I think undermining general rules that make things fantastically buffed is a sticking point for me.
F.E. The Evocation Wizard -> Now it's impossible to create the wrong spell for the job, and picking spells is always whatever the highest DPS is, rather than trade-offs for the spells' side-effects and whatnot.
That said, I'm a stingy hard-ass though :p
I could see myself denying it; using a physical weapon on Touch AC at lvl. 1 seems a bit much. I'd have to look at it more, but I think undermining general rules that make things fantastically buffed is a sticking point for me.
You expect a Bolt Ace to only fire their crossbow 2-4 times per day? They can't always target touch AC.
Sharp Shoot (Ex) At 1st level, a bolt ace can resolve an attack against touch AC instead of normal AC when firing a crossbow at a target within its first range increment. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point. This deed’s cost cannot be reduced by any ability or effect that reduces the amount of grit points a deed costs (such as Signature Deed).
This deed replaces deadeye.
Emphasis mine.
Or do you really think 1d4 or 1d8 versus touch AC a couple times per day would break the early game?