[PFS] Making It Work: Slayer-Mesmerist SA-Build

[Selvaxri]

Greetings all, with the prospect of making an effective Sandman build circling the drain, I decided to explore another option that opened up while trying to make the other build.
An Enigma Vanguard build, using the Enigma's "clouded stare" and Moonlight Stalker feat to get an advantage against it's foes, with the Studied Target and Teamwork feat [Precise Strike] of the Vanguard.
And I'm look for opinions, advice, and direction on this build.

I had planned on playing a Nagaji, but with his inherit Int-penalty, I may just try making an Ifrit or Ratfolk [anticipating a boon from PaizoCon]
Of course, i could consider a Brawler to ignore the Int prereq and get a jump on Sneak Attack.

Stats are still in the works, but help me try to work out a possible build.
I don't plan going deep into the Mesmerist, mostly to get the free "concealment" gimmick, a boost to Will saves, and an "at my disposal" spell- like Vanish and knacks.
I could go deeper into the Mesmerist for it's own Sneak Attack die, but compared to the Slayer's "3/3+" SAP the "5/4+" SAP of the Mesmerist takes much longer with a lower BAB.

Possible build:
Slayer 1> Combat Expertise
Slayer 2> Precise Strike [via Tactician Teamwork]
Slayer 3> Blind-fight; SA +1d6
Slayer 4> -
S4/Mesmerist 1> Moonlight Stalker
Slayer 5/M1> -
Slayer 6/M1> Accomplished Sneak Attacker; Slayer Talent; SA +2d6
S7/M1> -
S8/M1> ?, Slayer Talent

[Grandlounge]

You may want build around Perturbing Stare if you are will to go more levels or mesmerist. For a second way to get sneak attack off.

[avr]

The False Flanker trick is another easy way to get sneak attack off. If you're going to use tricks a lot with only one level in mesmerist and probably not a lot of Cha, then you might want the Extra Mesmerist Tricks feat at 9.

[Red Griffyn]

Even though the BAB loss will hurt, it might be a fun dip for a Unchained Rogue. Use the Scout/Swashbuckler Archetype to pick up the elven branched spear. Play as a half elf and take the +2 to CHA and one other racial trait. As a half-elf you treat the elven branched spear as a martial weapon, even without elven weapon familiarity, so you can pick it up via the swashbuckler archetype (also gives you two picks of combat feats in place of rogue talents).

Stats:
STR - 13
DEX - 16 + 2
CON - 14
INT - 10
WIS - 10
CHA - 12 + 2

Get a sneak attack on charges, movement > 10ft, from the False Flanker Trick, and all while using Dex to hit/damage (including 1.5X on double handed and power attack due to the rogues finesse training).

Grab Phalanx Formation/Combat Reflexes with your talents so you don't even have to change your feat progression above. Although I would suggest grabbing power attack somewhere in there.

Throw down a hamper condition on your SA charge, get SA on next turn with false flanker.

[Selvaxri]

Scout doesn't get the Charge/SA until 4th... so, he's out as a "dip"
Swashbuckler would be good, as i could use the additional combat feats- but i'd have to wait until i actually get Rogue Tricks.

Right now, I'd rather focus on making this character a Slayer-Mesmerist, rather than a rogue.

also, why must everyone say "get power attack" I understand it's effectiveness- but honestly, it's not for all builds.
With a character that relies on sneak attack, missing an attack really screws him over- unless i get something like Assault Commander. Though, with this build- the concealment/invisibility catches them flat-footed, rather than depending on flanking.

[Red Griffyn]

Selvaxri wrote:

Scout doesn't get the Charge/SA until 4th... so, he's out as a "dip"

Swashbuckler would be good, as i could use the additional combat feats- but i'd have to wait until i actually get Rogue Tricks.

Right now, I'd rather focus on making this character a Slayer-Mesmerist, rather than a rogue.

also, why must everyone say "get power attack" I understand it's effectiveness- but honestly, it's not for all builds.
With a character that relies on sneak attack, missing an attack really screws him over- unless i get something like Assault Commander. Though, with this build- the concealment/invisibility catches them flat-footed, rather than depending on flanking.

I meant that the mesmerist would be a fun dip for a UnRogue. I only suggested the class swap form slayer because you seem like you are going after sneak attack dice, and the rogue has the best progression for it.

As well, the UnRogue allows you to focus on DEX/CON, have a good AC and mediocre STR instead of a STR based slayer who will be tighter in the point buy to get better AC. Unrogue is the only class that gets the full benefit of Dex to Attack/Damage from two handing and power attack.

In terms of your slayer. I see the strength of picking the Vanguard archetype for the improved initiative/act in a surprise round abilities. However, I'm not convinced on the action economy of getting a teamwork feat to apply to one other person as a standard action. If you had two people in the party with SAP, then giving them precise strike would be fine if you always worked as a team on one opponent. Otherwise it doesn't seem that great.

You could have your Moonlight Stalker feat by level 3 if you went straight slayer. Level 1 take blind fight, level 2 use your slayer talent to take the underhanded ranger style and grab combat expertise, then at level 3 dip into mesmerist and take Moonlight Stalker. It would accelerate your feat chains and not require a standard action to get +1D6, when you could have used that standard to simply attack for more damage. As well getting combat expertise through the ranger style allows you to ignore the 13 int perquisite for that feat and other associated feats, so you can put int to 12 and put the point buy elsewhere. Level 4 you SA, level 5 you use your talent to get accomplished SA.

[Chess Pwn]

The ranger combat feat doesn't let you ignore the int prereqs of associated feats. Moonlight stalker requires 13 int.

[Selvaxri]

I also don't see how you're getting two stat boosts...

More importantly, i like experimenting with niche builds. i already have a rogue in PFS, and she's not really SA focuses. [was planning on two-weapon feint route, but may discard for Butterfly's Sting/Assault Commander strategy.]
I don't have a Slayer... so, why not?

Vanguard also has a nice ability of giving teammates half my Studied Target bonus.

[Grandlounge]

I think getting to level 8 mesmerist for this build is huge. Greater invis is awesome. Before that you are only getting 1 sneak attack every two rounds.

Somethings that may help this build. Some suggestions are not perfectly in line with what you want to do so feel free to discard them.

Traits: shadow stabber (adopted), Blind Zeal (if you want a full on blind character though I don’t think you do), guiding spirit.

Freebooter ranger seems to have a similar set up like you want and may be worth considering. Brawler 1 or 2 mesmerist X may work for what you are trying to achieve. Either snakebite (SA) or base and use Dedicate Adversary as a pseudo study (+2 att and dam).

With shadow stabber, invis, moonlight stalker, vs flatfooted ac your to-hit should be fine with this build. Adding study is fine but getting the damage up would be my focus. Accomplished Sneak Attacker, power attack (though I know you don't want it, which I get it does not fit some builds), or continuing study.

This could be a good ranged build sneak attack at range can be hard this could make it do able.

Sorry the help is not more specific. Maybe my random thoughts will spark something.

[Red Griffyn]

Chess Pwn wrote:

The ranger combat feat doesn't let you ignore the int prereqs of associated feats. Moonlight stalker requires 13 int.

As per the Archives of Nethys:

Underhanded
Source Ultimate Intrigue pg. 40
If the ranger selects underhanded, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: , and if he chooses Combat Expertise, he counts as having 13 Intelligence for the purpose of selecting that feat and others that have Combat Expertise as a prerequisite: , Combat Expertise, Dodge, Improved Dirty Trick, and Improved Steal. At 6th level, he adds Greater Dirty Trick and Greater Steal to the list. At 10th level, he adds Quick Dirty Trick and Quick Steal to the list.

So as long as you pick the right ranger style your are fine. This lets you keep your Nagaji race pick since int doesn't matter for any of your pre-reqs related to downstream feats of Combat Expertise.

Your feats could be:

Slayer 1> Blind-Fight
Slayer 2> Combat Expertise
S2/Mesmerist 1> Moonlight Stalker
Slayer 3/M1> -
Slayer 4/M1> Combat Trick (Gang-Up), Accomplished Sneak Attacker

After build level 5 you have a variety of options since you've achieved all of the feats you wanted in your first post and more. Here are a few suggestions (may not be highly optimized).

Intimidate Build:

Trait: Blade of Mercy (must use slashing weapon no -4 for non-lethal)

Slayer 5/M1> -
Slayer 6/M1> Weapon Training (Weapon Focus),Enforcer
Slayer 7/M1> -
Slayer 8/M1> Shadows of Fear or Dazzling Display
Slayer 9/M1> -
Slayer 10/M1> Feat X or Shattered Defenses (with Dazzling Display)

Moonlight Stalker Chain:
Slayer 4/M1> Combat Trick (Improved Feint), Accomplished SA
Slayer 6/M1> Weapon Training (Weapon Focus), Moonlight Stalker Feint
Slayer 7/M1> -
Slayer 8/M1> Slayer Talent, Moonlight Stalker Master
Slayer 9/M1> -
Slayer 10/M1> Slayer Talent, Improved Critical

Melee Combat Focused:
Slayer 6/M1> Weapon Training (Weapon Focus), Power Attack
Slayer 7/M1> -
Slayer 8/M1> Slayer Talent, Improved Critical
Slayer 9/M1> -
Slayer 10/M1> Slayer Talent, Feat

There are a lot of things that are competing for your swift action because you likely want to re-apply your stare for concealment every round. So if there is a magic item that grants extra swift items that may be of use to you.

[Red Griffyn]

Selvaxri wrote:

I also don't see how you're getting two stat boosts...

More importantly, i like experimenting with niche builds. i already have a rogue in PFS, and she's not really SA focuses. [was planning on two-weapon feint route, but may discard for Butterfly's Sting/Assault Commander strategy.]
I don't have a Slayer... so, why not?

Vanguard also has a nice ability of giving teammates half my Studied Target bonus.

Half elf can trade everything but lowlight vision for +2 to CHA and +2 to one other stat (like a dual talent human but one must be CHA). The RAW vs. RAI of the Elven Branched spear says it is treated as a martial weapon by elves (of which half-elves count). Its a munchkin move, but you can do it. Since you still have low-light you are fine for meeting the Moonlight Stalker feat chains.

[Grandlounge]

Corset of Delicate Moves helps with some swift action economy.

[Red Griffyn]

So the Stare ability is:

Solipsism (Su): At 1st level, whenever the enigma uses hypnotic stare on a creature, instead of applying a penalty on the creature’s saving throws, the enigma begins to fade from the creature’s view. Until the enigma’s next turn, the enigma gains the effects of concealment against that creature (unless it can see invisible creatures). Starting on the enigma’s next turn, he gains the effect of invisibility against that creature. These effects last as long as the enigma continues to use his hypnotic stare, but if he takes an action that would end invisibility, it ends his hypnotic stare immediately. The enigma can reinstate this effect whenever he wishes, but each time it begins with 1 round of concealment. At 8th level, attacks that would end invisibility do not end the enigma’s hypnotic stare, and after 1 round of concealment, he gains the benefit its of greater invisibility against the target of his stare. For the purpose of bold stare improvements, the enigma’s hypnotic stare always has a penalty of –1.

On my reading of that it looks like as long as you take your swift at the end of your turn you are invisible to it next turn and get 1 SA per turn once in combat.

Your actions would look like:

Round 1 - Move to Study, Standard to Ranged Attack (with a bow), Swift to stare.

Round 2 - Start of turn, now invisible, Move to Enemy, Standard to Sneak Attack, Swift to Stare and regain concealment.

Rinse and Repeat. I think you get one SA every round so long as you take your swift after your attack, giving you the round of concealment, then at the start of your next turn invisibility to the one opponent.

As backup you can always trigger the False Flanker trick to get a full round of flanking for full round SA's once iterative are in play.

As well to switch opponents you can use your False Flanker once per combat on the new opponent, gives you SA and instant studied combat to allow a full round attack.

I'm not sure you would gain much going further down the stalker line. Probably better to go for a melee focus or Archery/switch hitter feats to round yourself out.

[Selvaxri]

Red Griffyn wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

The ranger combat feat doesn't let you ignore the int prereqs of associated feats. Moonlight stalker requires 13 int.

As per the Archives of Nethys:

Underhanded
Source Ultimate Intrigue pg. 40
If the ranger selects underhanded, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat, and if he chooses Combat Expertise, he counts as having 13 Intelligence for the purpose of selecting that feat and others that have Combat Expertise as a prerequisite...

I can only skip the Int 13 Prereq when choosing a combat style feat ala the Underhanded style, and only of the ones mentioned in that Style description.

You have me gaining Moonlight Stalker as my standard 3rd lvl feat- which still has the "13 Int" prereq, because it's not gained through a Combat Style, nor is it one mentioned.

Underhanded is like Dirty Fighting; it only benefits some builds.

I could be a human and take Draconic Heritage/Fey Magic alternate traits to get Low-light Vision, and get Moonlight Stalker at 3rd.

[Red Griffyn]

Selvaxri wrote:

Red Griffyn wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

The ranger combat feat doesn't let you ignore the int prereqs of associated feats. Moonlight stalker requires 13 int.

As per the Archives of Nethys:

Underhanded
Source Ultimate Intrigue pg. 40
If the ranger selects underhanded, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat, and if he chooses Combat Expertise, he counts as having 13 Intelligence for the purpose of selecting that feat and others that have Combat Expertise as a prerequisite...

I can only skip the Int 13 Prereq when choosing a combat style feat ala the Underhanded style, and only of the ones mentioned in that Style description.

You have me gaining Moonlight Stalker as my standard 3rd lvl feat- which still has the "13 Int" prereq, because it's not gained through a Combat Style, nor is it one mentioned.

Underhanded is like Dirty Fighting; it only benefits some builds.

I could be a human and take Draconic Heritage/Fey Magic alternate traits to get Low-light Vision, and get Moonlight Stalker at 3rd.

That's not the same interpretation I would have come to. The selecting of a combat style feat gives him the option of combat expertise avoiding the 13 INT. But the wording would need to be more explicit to preclude the using that for subsequent feats. As it stands I think it is too general. It would need to read something like:

"gains a combat style feat, and if he chooses Combat Expertise, he counts as having 13 Intelligence for the purpose of selecting that feat and other feats gained through the combat style that have Combat Expertise as a prerequisite..."

But, I agree, you can go human and get a second feat to maintain it. You just lose out on the double stat bump from going half-elf or using another race altogether. As well, dipping at level 3 means you'll still have 2 BAB (on par with 3/4 BAB classes), and get all the cool mesmerist tricks to give yourself concealment/flanking. That 20% miss chance will make up for having to have a strength build with a lower DEX. With your reading of that ranger combat style you are fairly MAD since you want STR/DEX/CON as any frontliner, but you want a 13 INT, can't dump your WIS (because low will saves suck) and want at least a 11 or 12 in CHA to get spells and trick usage from your mesmerist.

You could try what Grandlounge is suggesting and go ranged. Since you get 1 SA every round depending on when you use your swift action you could go down the list of archer feats after level 3. I would worship Erastil for the Dead-Eye Bowman trait though. That way you generally only get a -4 penalty from being in combat vs. softcover. That also lets you get away with a lower CON. By level 5 you could have point-blank and precise shot.

[Chess Pwn]

I agree with Red Griffyn, you already ignore requirements for combat style feats, so stating that you would ignore int 13 on those feats is redundant, so it lets you take normal feats off of that combat expertise.

[Selvaxri]

I'm still uncertain if Combat Expertise through Underhanded works as you saying it does.

Still, that's why i asked the question is rules forums, it is vague enough to cause some rule conflicts.

I do still like the Vanguard archetype- it's not vital, opens up more damage for my allies. Alternatively, to avoid confusion, i could just take Brawler or Swashbuckler- i am going into Mesmerist, so i aught to have a Charisma of atleast 13; the Guided Blade archetype gets me a Tactician ability.

Nagaji/ Stats: 16/14/14/10/12/13

[Chess Pwn]

Selvaxri, it seems you're the only one having the view that it doesn't work. Can you show what part exactly makes you think it's limited for only combat style feats?

[Selvaxri]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Selvaxri, it seems you're the only one having the view that it doesn't work. Can you show what part exactly makes you think it's limited for only combat style feats?

I'm still in the mindset of "what's learned with a ranger combat style, can only be used with ranger combat styles."

[Chess Pwn]

What made you think that? Does that apply to anything else? Can I use twf from comeat style as a prereq for other feats?

[Grandlounge]

Here is how I think the build would work best.

Brawler1 enigma1 slayerX

Here's my reasoning. The your first turn you use all your actions.

Swift study, move gain a feat (maybe a new team work feat), share a feat (could be precise strike could be outflank or paired opportunist depending on the party and weapons or a boost to saves).

As you advance you will have the choice between gaining a feats and sharing your study.

Now round 2 your going to have to attack before the stare so it remains up and you can be invisible next round. As read griffyn out lined.

I think this is the best us of action economy keeps the build focused and strong. You don't have to worry about 13 int.

I think the third build that red griffyn laid out is the best using all slayer levels.

A side from the trait shadow stabbed. Reflexive Trick would make this build feel really good defensively. Though you would have to trade using a trick for renewing the stare but if you have a flank it would be worth it.

[Selvaxri]

You're forgetting that I'm still getting the Moonlight Stalker attack and damage bonus as long as i have concealment.

Optimally, I'm flanking for the sneak attack, and just stacking concealment for damage. But the stacking won't really come into play until i get iterative attacks.

Brawler fixes the Int requirement without my discard the Vanguard archetype, but slows down the build a little bit.
Just playing straight slayer with the Underhanded style, apparently gets me Moonlight Stalker by 3rd.

Adding Brawler to the mix, i could use Martial Flexibility to get Moonlight Stalker until I take it myself, and open up MF to something like Power Attack/Vital Strike...

Brawler 1/M-/S-> [Snakebite Striker] Blindfight, +1d6 Sneak Attack
B1/Mesmerist 1/S-> [Enigma]
B1/M1/Slayer 1> [Vanguard] Combat Expertise
B1/M1/S2> *Precise Strike
B1/M1/S3> Moonlight Stalker, +1d6 Sneak Attack [2d6 total]
B1/M1/S4> -
B1/M1/S5> Accomplished Sneak Attacker [3d6 total]
9> ?
11> ?

Imagine the hilarity of having Cleave in the ideal situation.

[Grandlounge]

Snake bite loses martial flexibility so I would take the standard brawler. For martials I tend to take versatility over extra damage but to each there own. Neither style is right or wrong.

[Selvaxri]

ah, well. I like the Exemplar's "hey listen!" ability, since the Vanguard is never caught flat-footed, at later levels.

Since i'm only going for a possible level dip, i may try to get the most out of that one level.
All i need to keep of the Brawler is Brawler's Cunning & Martial Flexibility.

Though, now that i'm not taking Snakebite Striker, I may wait longer- atleast til 3rd Slayer, to take Mesmerist.

Brawler 1/M-/S-> [Exemplar] Blind Fight
B1/M-/Slayer 1> [Vanguard] -
B1/M-/Slayer 2> Combat Expertise, Precise Strike*
B1/M-/Slayer 3> +1d6 Sneak Attack
B1/Mesmerist 1/S3> [Enigma] Moonlight Stalker
B1/M1/Slayer 4> -
B1/M1/Slayer 5> Accomplished Sneak Attacker

...

As i said, I don't mind dropping the Vanguard archetype for general Slayer, and getting Moonlight Stalker at 3rd- that doesn't rely on Brawler's Cunning.

[Selvaxri]

Time to bring back an oldie!

It's been a while, my Nagaji Slayer has reached lvl 7 and survived the Daughters of Fury module, and even Nightmarch of Kalkamedes.

So, now comes the choice of several feats and/or slayer talents. Nagaji's have the favored class bonus of an extra Slayer Talent after six levels- so i've been striving for that.

i'm not feeling a Power Attack route, and and with his schtick of using the Enigma's Solipsism of going invisible and striking from that way, Frightening Ambush and Shadows of Fear may be an interesting direction.

I'm thinking currently- getting Weapon Training though my 6th lvl Slayer/Rogue Talent, taking the Frightening Ambush feat, and using my "bonus" Slayer talent to get Trapfinding, as i've nothing else to think of for him to acquire. sure, i could take more Rogue Talents and get Bleeding, Befuddling, etc.

I was pondering taking the Unbalancing Trick doing a whole [Invisible] Trip/Intimidate > AoO/Sneak Attack > Attack; which means: I'd have to take Greater Trip at some point- and don't know how effective it'll be at higher levels- large enemies and non-dedicated build.

Advice? Thoughts for or against the Frightening Ambush/Shadows of Fear direction, or even taking Trapfinding?