Ghosts Wielding Ghost Touch Weapons


Rules Questions


Maybe I'm crazy, but I thought that Ghosts - and any Incorporeal creatures, for the matter - wielding Ghost Touch weapons added their Charisma modifiers to the weapon's damage, replacing Strength, but I can't find anything supporting this in the rules. Can anyone confirm one way or the other?


dot. If so, it's well hidden!

Scarab Sages

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My biggest complaint about incorporeal creatures is that they should have STR scores, but They just can't normally use them. You have all kinds of edge cases like ghost touch weapons, Tetoris grappling them and so on that just don't work with them having a null score.


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I know I'm a bit late to the thread, but since this has gone unresolved -

Cuup wrote:
Maybe I'm crazy, but I thought that Ghosts - and any Incorporeal creatures, for the matter - wielding Ghost Touch weapons added their Charisma modifiers to the weapon's damage, replacing Strength, but I can't find anything supporting this in the rules. Can anyone confirm one way or the other?

According to UMR:

Universal Monster Rules: Incorporeal (Ex) wrote:
...It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB.

By RAW this states that melee attacks gain the attack bonus from Dex (but this does -not- imply Dex bonus to damage according to the glossary definition of "Melee Attack").

Concerning Incorporeal creatures and applying Str Damage to Melee Attacks:

Ability Scores: Strength (Str) wrote:
...A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious. Some creatures do not possess a Strength score and have no modifier at all to Strength-based skills or checks.

By RAW, they don't get to apply Str Bonuses (or penalties) at all to melee damage or any other strength based skills or checks.

However, I can't see why by RAW an incorporeal creature with both a weapon finesse feat and an agile + ghost touch enchanted light melee weapon wouldn't gain Dex to damage.

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Imbicatus wrote:
My biggest complaint about incorporeal creatures is that they should have STR scores, but They just can't normally use them. You have all kinds of edge cases like ghost touch weapons...

The UMR rules I quoted should resolve issues about incorporeal creatures using ghost touch weapons.

Imbicatus wrote:
...Tetoris grappling them and so on that just don't work with them having a null score.

This is about the Inescapable Grasp ability, correct?

Tetori: Inescapable Grasp (SU) wrote:
...At 17th level, the tetori’s unarmed strike gains the ghost touch special ability, and an incorporeal creature that he strikes gains the grappled condition (Reflex negates, DC 10 + 1/2 the wrestler’s level + his Wisdom modifier). Inescapable grasp is a swift action and lasts until the beginning of the wrestler’s next turn.

That is a very interesting ability. It says that when the monk uses an unarmed strike, the incorporeal creature itself gains the grappled condition. It doesn't actually say that the Tetori participates in that grapple as part of the attack or has the ability to use normal rules to initiate a grapple maneuver and maintain it against incorporeal creatures, just that he simply imparts the grapple condition to the creature "until the beginning of the wrestler's next turn". It isn't even allowing the incorporeal creature to use the usual "resist grapple" Combat Maneuver/Escape Artist check against Opponents CMD when struck, instead using a specific Reflex save just for that ability. Because of this, it seems like a strength score for incorporeal creatures is a non-issue for this specific ability's special mechanics. That doesn't downplay how devastating this can be to an incorporeal creature though; without the Tetori being in a grappled condition himself (which is a major beneifit), he imparts the following grappled penalties to the creature:

*-4 to Dex
*Can't move
*-2 penalty on all attack rolls and CMB checks
*Can't take action that requires 2 hands to perform (might be a non-issue except for ghost touch weapons I suppose)
*When casting spell must make concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level) or lose the spell
*No AOO's allowed
*Can't use stealth even if normally allowed

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