Petition: The Following Races / Classes Deserve Special FCBs!


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Scarab Sages

In no meaningful order, I will present a few unusual races, and non-Core classes that are so in character for them in one way or another that that race really deserves special Favored Class Bonuses for those classes, but has yet to receive them (forgive me if I'm wrong about any of these in that regard):

Aasimar:
Vigilante
Antipaladin
Samurai
Investigator
Swashbuckler
Magus
Medium
Occultist

Tiefling:
Antipaladin
Vigilante
Ninja
Gunslinger
Oracle
Arcanist
Bloodrager
Warpriest
Mesmerist
Occultist

Oread:
Warpriest
Brawler
Hunter
Shaman
Kineticist
Spiritualist

Sylph:
Arcanist
Investigator
Swashbuckler
Ninja
Kineticist
Mesmerist

Ifrit:
Arcanist
Vigilante
Magus
Skald
Ninja
Cavalier
Swashbuckler
Kineticist
Psychic

Undine:
Samurai
Shaman
Warpriest
Kineticist
Medium
Spiritualist

Tengu:
Gunslinger
Alchemist
Inquisitor
Magus
Samurai
Ninja
Investigator
Shaman
Slayer
Swashbuckler
Occultist
Spiritualist

Nagaji:
Samurai
Antipaladin
Ninja
Oracle
Bloodrager
Slayer
Swashbuckler
Mesmerist

Kitsune:
Investigator
Swashbuckler
Ninja
Shaman
Medium
Mesmerist
Psychic
Vigilante

Wayang:
Magus
Witch
Ninja
Investigator
Medium
Occultist
Psychic

Vishkanya:
Alchemist
Oracle
Samurai
Ninja
Bloodrager
Brawler
Slayer
Swashbuckler
Vigilante
Kineticist
Medium
Mesmerist

Dhampir:
Magus
Cavalier
Witch
Oracle
Vigilante
Bloodrager
Investigator
Skald
Slayer
Swashbuckler
Mesmerist
Occultist
Psychic
Spiritualist

Shadow Lodge

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I'd really like to see a FCB for every race/class combination.

But I don't see how many of these suggestions are particularly thematic.

Aasimar magus?
Oread hunter?
Undine samurai?


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Racial FCBs need to be phased out from the game. There doesn't need to be another artificial barrier of entry for a class.

Give each class a set of alternate FCBs that can be picked from. Make it engaging, not binding.


i would also like to see an "other" favored class bonus for non standard races

Scarab Sages

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Secret Wizard wrote:

Racial FCBs need to be phased out from the game. There doesn't need to be another artificial barrier of entry for a class.

It's not an "artificial barrier" at all. Certain races are just better/differently-suited to certain classes. Bear in mind that before 3rd Edition, most races were restricted in the classes they could take at all. This seems very fair and gentle.

Weirdo wrote:


Aasimar magus? You don't think it would (particularly) suit Azata-descended Aasimar?
Oread hunter? They're close to the land, as well as having good ability modifiers for it.
Undine samurai? Some famous Oriental martial arts texts expound on emulating "the way of water."


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I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

Racial FCBs need to be phased out from the game. There doesn't need to be another artificial barrier of entry for a class.

It's not an "artificial barrier" at all. Certain races are just better/differently-suited to certain classes.

This is already predicated by racial bonuses. No need to add something else on top of that.

"Oh, I'd love to make a Monkey Goblin Slayer...! But missing out on stuff like +1/6 of a Slayer Talent is a huge loss..."

That kind of moment shouldn't exist.

Non-race specific FCBs should be a thing.

Here's Mark Seifter on racial FCBs:

Quote:
Frankly, from the perspective I've mentioned earlier in this thread about being heartbroken when someone feels like they can't play their race/class combo concept because some other race has a ridiculous FCB, I think they are probably one of the worst new types of component we have ever added to the game since Pathfinder began. The main problem is that they aren't even remotely balanced with 1 hp, and even worse, some of them like the human spontaneous caster spells known FCB are ridiculously overpowered compared to all the others, which mostly are still way more powerful than 1 hp (the ones that give you like 1/6th of a feat are a real hoot, since after level 6, you can take your feat from them, grab toughness with a normal feat, and be strictly ahead of choosing hp from then on).

Scarab Sages

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Secret Wizard wrote:


"Oh, I'd love to make a Monkey Goblin Slayer...! But missing out on stuff like +1/6 of a Slayer Talent is a huge loss..."

That kind of moment shouldn't exist.

It shouldn't exist because people who are thinking of it as a "loss" have it backwards. It's a bonus. That kind of thinking is a big cause of "power creep."

I agree that Humans have it a bit too good with them in most classes, though.

One great thing about special Favored Class Bonuses by race is that it makes different classes of different races more distinct from one another. I don't want to lose that.


I agree with secret wizard
The barrier is most pronounced with Sorcs, psychics and Oracles, it's extremely hard to justify not getting that extra spell at every level.

EDIT: the cause of power creep is insetivising buying new books because they contain new powerful options.


I also agree with Secret Wizard, but primarily because the overwhelming majority of racial FCBs don't really feel like racial flavor to me, so much as developers scrambling to find another unique fractional benefit for another niche combination. Racial archetypes do a much better job of providing unique racial flavor, even bad archetypes. FCBs are just bonuses you can have for being the right combination of race and class, bonuses so subatomic that balance is a pain in the tuckus.


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I love racial FCBs, but I have to admit, it's power-creep. I've looked at race/class combos and rejected them purely because I didn't like the FCB. And when there isn't a racial FCB even specified, it's downright disappointing. Having the choice of only 1 HP or 1 skill rank just isn't fun, even if you end up picking one of those.

It would be simplest if when designing a new race X, they put in a statement that said something like, "An X is most like a Y when it comes to Favored Class Bonuses. However, an X has a unique approach to the following classes..."

Meaning, "Here's our specified FCBs for this new race X; otherwise, use the ones for Core race Y." Although, come to think of it, there's nothing stopping a GM in a home campaign (not PFS) from figuring out a specific Core race to use as a fill-in for a sparsely-specified race that a player has an interest in.


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

One great thing about special Favored Class Bonuses by race is that it makes different classes of different races more distinct from one another. I don't want to lose that.

That would be an idealized view of the system that's not really there... And probably best achieved with feats.

Most FCBs feel like arbitrary bonuses. Like, I could justify each race having the Occultist FCB they have, but if you shuffled them around, I still could.


I have been slowly fleshing the lists of FCB for my home game, this discussion has settled me on putting together about 3 options for each class and removing race restrictions.


Another problem with the profusion of Favored Class Bonuses is that while some of them are great, some of them are trap options or otherwise just bad, and often in ways that don't even make thematic sense.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think I would go with the idea of making most alternate favored class bonuses generic, but perhaps having a few racially restricted favored class bonuses for particular non-ideal race/class combinations (such as an orc wizard).

Or, more directly, you could provide racial prerequisites in the form of "must have racial penalty to intelligence" or "must not have racial bonus to intelligence".

Scarab Sages

Secret Wizard wrote:

Most FCBs feel like arbitrary bonuses. Like, I could justify each race having the Occultist FCB they have, but if you shuffled them around, I still could.

I can see the reasoning in most cases - if you can't, that's your shortcoming, not the designers'.

That said, I did my own private work on racial Favored Class Bonuses before the Advanced Race Guide came out; I daresay mine were more interesting and thematically-appropriate than a lot of what Paizo's done - thing is, I think they're afraid to be more creative because they're worried people would complain.

I don't mean to be confrontational, but it does always upset me when somebody says "I don't understand what you're doing," and assume the fault for that lies with the other party and not themselves.

This isn't the direction I'd hoped this thread would take.


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David knott 242 wrote:

I think I would go with the idea of making most alternate favored class bonuses generic, but perhaps having a few racially restricted favored class bonuses for particular non-ideal race/class combinations (such as an orc wizard).

My idea is similar... all classes get to pick from a list, but if a designer comes up with something FLAVORFUL, then that can be added as a racial option.

For example:

Rogue Favored Class Options

  • After this option is picked six times, you gain a bonus Rogue Talent.
  • After this option is picked once, gain proficiency with a martial weapon. If this option is picked thrice, gain proficiency with an exotic weapon.
  • After this option is picked once, gain a +1 bonus to a skill of your choice. After this option is picked thrice, if that skill is not a class skill, it becomes a class skill.
  • Dwarf: After picking this option twice, you reduce the armor check penalty of any armor you wear by 1. After picking this option six times, you gain proficiency with medium armor. You still benefit from evasion and improved evasion while wearing medium armor.
  • Tengu: After picking this option four times, you gain a ki pool with 1 point. After this, each additional four times you pick this option, you gain another ki point. You may use this ki point as an immediate action to reroll a Disable Device, Fly, Perception or Sleight of Hand check. You must use this second result, even if it's worse.

So basically the base options are universally appealing, the racial options are thematic but not necessarily game breaking.

Scarab Sages

I'll admit, that doesn't sound terrible - as long as individual races get interesting custom things.

Bear in mind, you led with the foot of "racial FCBs shouldn't be a thing" - what you're suggesting now is entirely different.


Racial FCBs are one of the few things I have banned in my home games. I don't think the teeny bit of flavor they add is worth their unbalanced mechanics.

The players seem perfectly ok with just choosing a HP or skill point.


Secret Wizard wrote:

Racial FCBs need to be phased out from the game. There doesn't need to be another artificial barrier of entry for a class.

Give each class a set of alternate FCBs that can be picked from. Make it engaging, not binding.

For me, the best way to do it is have both. A strong set of race neutral FCB and set of thematic race ones.

As to Mark's quote, I wouldn't expect them to be balance with 1 hp/skill point. ANY option you give is stronger than those so limiting yourself to equivalent bonuses would leave yourself with LOTS of 'meh' options.

As to the "thread about being heartbroken when someone feels like they can't play their race/class combo concept because some other race has a ridiculous FCB"... Well, then what about the guy that was "heartbroken" when they couldn't play a "race/class combo" that gives him an extra feat at 1st? Or +1 to all saves? Or allows him to wield weapons he creates? EVERY combo comes with pluses and minuses and feeling "heartbroken" because you can't have it all seems a bit selfish.

Should I feel heartbroken because a new race from bestiary 6 doesn't have racial feats/FCB/ect yet? Is it the fault of a FCB that I feel heartbroken? I mean it's CLEARLY the fault of the human's FCB's that I'm bummed about the lack of goblin monkey options... :P


Another thing to mull over is that there is a LONG list of races that have an option to pick up human FCB's. 1/2 elf, 1/2 orc, aasimar, gillman, ifrit, kitsune, oread, skinwalker, suli, sylph, tiefling, undine, deep one hybrid and reptoid. So when people say that not getting the human FCB for Sorcs, psychics and Oracles is a big thing, they are talking about an FCB that 16 races [and 16 Variant Heritages] can take [and I may have missed a few]. That's hardly a big barrier.


Did you see my proposal for Rogues later?


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I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

Most FCBs feel like arbitrary bonuses. Like, I could justify each race having the Occultist FCB they have, but if you shuffled them around, I still could.

I can see the reasoning in most cases - if you can't, that's your shortcoming, not the designers'.

That said, I did my own private work on racial Favored Class Bonuses before the Advanced Race Guide came out; I daresay mine were more interesting and thematically-appropriate than a lot of what Paizo's done - thing is, I think they're afraid to be more creative because they're worried people would complain.

I don't mean to be confrontational, but it does always upset me when somebody says "I don't understand what you're doing," and assume the fault for that lies with the other party and not themselves.

This isn't the direction I'd hoped this thread would take.

The reasoning being obvious and the FCB being generic and un-inspired are not mutually exclusive

said un-inspired options often just seem like boring static bonuses and should be available to everyone.

For example humans get more spells
Elves getting half a mental focus point as occultists. There isn't any flavor in these bonuses (which is different to saying it doesn't make sense for the race) they're just class specific and generic bonuses.

The Dwarf rogue one that secret wizard mentioned now thats a flavorful FCB.

Also I disagree with your premise, if a designer designs something and people in their target audience think its boring/don't get it, that is a designer problem, you can't just tell vast swathes of your audience they're wrong.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Did you see my proposal for Rogues later?

After I posted, yes. It's close to what I was thinking.

Scarab Sages

graystone wrote:
Another thing to mull over is that there is a LONG list of races that have an option to pick up human FCB's. 1/2 elf, 1/2 orc, aasimar, gillman, ifrit, kitsune, oread, skinwalker, suli, sylph, tiefling, undine, deep one hybrid and reptoid. So when people say that not getting the human FCB for Sorcs, psychics and Oracles is a big thing, they are talking about an FCB that 16 races [and 16 Variant Heritages] can take [and I may have missed a few]. That's hardly a big barrier.

Wait, what? Can the "planetouched" races take Human FCBs? I knew Half-Elves and Half-Orcs could.

@Chromantic Durgon <3: It's really a much broader issue I'm talking about than just this game. There is this belief that communicators IN ANY SITUATION ought to cater to listeners, who get to just sit there and bat away anything that doesn't immediately jive with their existing awareness and way of thinking. That's not reasonable or fair. Listeners must make an effort to understand the communicator on the communicator's own terms and learn new things - after all, there's countless listeners and only one communicator.


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Wait, what? Can the "planetouched" races take Human FCBs? I knew Half-Elves and Half-Orcs could.

Any race that 'count as humanoid (human)' or have a human subtype can take them.

Just look at the 1/2 elf/orc elf/orc blood abilities and you see 'count as human' and you see the same wording under the planetouched abilities. Why would one 'count as human' work differently than another 'count as human'?

As to subtypes, there is this from the ARG: "Subtypes are often important to qualify for other racial abilities and feats. If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites." So this is a second way to justify the 'count as' idea and shows that races like deep one hybrid can take human options as they have the human subtype.

So there are @ 32 different varieties in races that can take human FCB.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm talking about races that have taken the alternate racial trait to "count as human": for instance, planetouched that take Mostly Human.


@graystone:

You are wrong. You are confusing "humanoid (human)", which is a subtype, and "human" which is a race.

It's one of those inelegant but important distinctions.

Only the race qualifies for the FCB.

And before you list that quote about subtypes as source, I'd remind you that if the rules worked the way you said, neither goblins nor hobgoblins would qualifyfor feats that require you to be of either race, because their subtype is goblinoid which is neither.

Mostly Human only gives a type and subtype, which matters for favoured enemy purposes, but Orc Blood counts them as simply Humans, which largely matters for prerequisites.


For home games, I find that not restricting FCB choice by race allows for more races to seem like interesting choices.


Secret Wizard wrote:

@graystone:

You are wrong. You are confusing "humanoid (human)", which is a subtype, and "human" which is a race.

It's one of those inelegant but important distinctions.

Only the race qualifies for the FCB.

And before you list that quote about subtypes as source, I'd remind you that if the rules worked the way you said, neither goblins nor hobgoblins would qualifyfor feats that require you to be of either race, because their subtype is goblinoid which is neither.

Mostly Human only gives a type and subtype, which matters for favoured enemy purposes, but Orc Blood counts them as simply Humans, which largely matters for prerequisites.

anything that is half human can take human only stuff the devs have even said so(so that means half elves, half orcs, half giants, aasimar, teifling ext.)


Secret Wizard wrote:

@graystone:

You are wrong. You are confusing "humanoid (human)", which is a subtype, and "human" which is a race.

It's one of those inelegant but important distinctions.

Only the race qualifies for the FCB.

And before you list that quote about subtypes as source, I'd remind you that if the rules worked the way you said, neither goblins nor hobgoblins would qualifyfor feats that require you to be of either race, because their subtype is goblinoid which is neither.

Mostly Human only gives a type and subtype, which matters for favoured enemy purposes, but Orc Blood counts them as simply Humans, which largely matters for prerequisites.

Subtype (race) IS the same as race for most things. the ARG quote tells you as much. "Subtypes are often important to qualify for other racial abilities and feats. If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites."

FCB HAVE A RACE PEREQUISITE and what does subtype say about that? "If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites."

As to orc blood, it is totally redundant and moot after the ARG. Subtype explicitly grants race prerequisites so it doesn't need to be put under race.

So I'm going to have to say, no it is you that is wrong here. The point you missed is that just because subtype qualifies for race, that doesn't stop race from qualifying on it's own. Most times race and subtype are the same, so it doesn't matter. However 1/2 elf, 1/2 orc, drow, ect have their own distinct race alone with the subtypes they qualify for. That doesn't stop their the subtypes from working as stated. It even accounts for the issue you bring up, not having your own subtype: "If a humanoid has a racial subtype" is counts as that race. If it doesn't have it's own subtype it only have it's race for prerequisites. The goblin in your post would have the option of using Goblin and Goblinoid for any race prerequisites. Too bad for the goblin I know of nothing that looks for goblinoid other than favored enemy.

You are trying to say because race qualifies for feats that subtype can't. That is nowhere in the rules and in fact it states that both do. The fact that some races don't have their own unique subtypes doesn't mean anything other that they have access to that subtypes prerequisites in addition the race's name prerequisites.

It's simple really. Unless there is a rules that excluded the ARP quote of "Subtypes are often important to qualify for other racial abilities and feats. If a humanoid has a racial subtype, it is considered a member of that race in the case of race prerequisites", subtypes qualify as prerequisites. It's super clear, explicit and doesn't interfere with the actual race qualifying. IF it was ONLY race and not subtype, then the quoted rule is wouldn't be needed and would actually be telling you to do something incorrect.


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
It's really a much broader issue I'm talking about than just this game. There is this belief that communicators IN ANY SITUATION ought to cater to listeners, who get to just sit there and bat away anything that doesn't immediately jive with their existing awareness and way of thinking. That's not reasonable or fair. Listeners must make an effort to understand the communicator on the communicator's own terms and learn new things - after all, there's countless listeners and only one communicator.

See but what you're talking about doesn't correlate with the example you're providing. The people in this thread have obviously read and understood pathfinder to some degree (a fairly reasonable degree I would argue). Said readers have looked into the minutia of FCBs and said some of them are boring and not flavorful, basically acting like a static bonus (the extra 1/2 a mental focus is one of the clearest examples off the top of my head) and some have a pretty clear unique and flavorful link to their races, thats less class dependent and more broadly in world applicable. Thus making it feel more flavor less mechanical.

Elves are more intelligent and focused so if they happen to be this one class that has a resource pool with 'focus' in the name they get more of it, although the flavor for what mental focus actually is, is foggy at best.
Dwarves are good at crafting and wearing Armour, they get better Armour proficiency. You see one seems like a pretty boring static class bonus, one feels like a fairly flavorful and involved ability that is less defined by finding a small in class bonus they can grant without breaking anything and more by having something with a pretty strong and clear correlation with race.

I would argue that then accusing people making said complaint of lazily batting away anything that 'doesn't jive' with their way of thinking to be fairly insulting and dismissive.

As to the Graystone secret Wizard debate, I don't know the answer but I do know that its pretty much impossible to argue that their is a unique focused and flavorful argument for 32 races getting the same FCB because they're vaguely humanoid. If literally 50% of races have something its no longer a unique and interesting bonus and may as well be opened up to everyone, especially for such an incredibly powerful option.

EDIT: Engrish is hard.

EDIT EDIT: One thing I definitly don't think you can call pathfinder fans is dismissive or passive they're too involved if anything xD


Our group banned them as a leftover hatred for exp penalties. After a few years, they came back, but only for classes that fit with a race, and not always what was published. Elves' FC is Sorcerer, Halflings Rogue, etc., are a few, but there are differences that reward following the trope (Elves get a better Sorcerer bump than Humans, who treat all as FC).

They decided to have four forms of the FC bonus. The worst is a class with NO bonus, the next is the skill/HP option, followed by what I call 'trope' reinforcement of the theme and last is the 'extra' rewards for an FC in a particular race/class combo. EG: Elvish Sorcerers are 'more elementally' connected to Arcane magic and taking the skill point can be done as one in each of K(arcana) and Spellcraft...in addition to the spell build up. I run a Eberron Changeling Wizard and get no FC bonus, those go to Rogues and Bards. It really doesn't matter to me that much, and oddly, we currently have no Elf Sorcerers.

Since these are all ancient D&D players (half played before Greyhawk came out), they are a bit ossified and slow to accept changes. They aren't unreasonable, switching from THAC0 literally mid game when 3.0 came out, but work on consensus due to rotating GMs. All GMs must sign off with a majority of the table. Yeah, show up or get out voted!

Always hit Preview! Elf Sorcerers get the full bump if they are chaotic good only.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
graystone wrote:
Another thing to mull over is that there is a LONG list of races that have an option to pick up human FCB's. 1/2 elf, 1/2 orc, aasimar, gillman, ifrit, kitsune, oread, skinwalker, suli, sylph, tiefling, undine, deep one hybrid and reptoid. So when people say that not getting the human FCB for Sorcs, psychics and Oracles is a big thing, they are talking about an FCB that 16 races [and 16 Variant Heritages] can take [and I may have missed a few]. That's hardly a big barrier.
Wait, what? Can the "planetouched" races take Human FCBs? I knew Half-Elves and Half-Orcs could.

It depends on whether they have certain alternate racial traits that let them count as human. Without those traits, they cannot take human FCBs -- but with those traits, they can.

Shadow Lodge

I agree that racial FCB are not balanced properly and that hurts the game. I recently posted in the advice board about making a shaman and there was quite a push towards human (or aasimar with the scion of humanity trait) in order to get the racial FCB. It was a little discouraging.

I think it's still a good concept and that if they are both balanced and flavourful FCB are a great inclusion in the game. However I'm starting to doubt whether it's actually possible to have balanced and flavourful racial FCB for every race-class combination as I would ideally like.

I also do like what Secret Wizard came up with.

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
Aasimar magus? You don't think it would (particularly) suit Azata-descended Aasimar?

No, why?

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
Oread hunter? They're close to the land, as well as having good ability modifiers for it.

Being close to stone and dirt doesn't mean they have any special affinity for animals. You could as easily say that the Undine should have a hunter FCB because they would be really good with aquatic animals, or the Sylph should have a hunter FCB because they would be good with birds - and the Undine has almost as hunter-friendly stat modifiers as the Oread does (+2 Dex +2 Wis -2 Str vs +2 Str +2 Wis -2 Cha).

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
Undine samurai? Some famous Oriental martial arts texts expound on emulating "the way of water."

I can kinda see this one when you point it out...

On the flip side, I'm noticing that you haven't requested an Ifrit Mesmerist FCB, despite the fact that they have an alternate racial trait called "Hypnotic" and suitable stats. That seems like a much better fit to me than the Undine Samurai or the Oread Hunter.

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