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I think 3-7 was chosen for Tome to try to address some of the problem levels where characters get stuck. Particularly 6th level, which can only play 3-7s and 5-9s. There are fewer of those released each season. Level 2 characters have a lot more options.
That being said, and not having played it yet, I wonder about the possibility of making the recent 1-5 quest series replayable at 1-2 instead of just 1. With two replayable level 1 scenarios, a replayable level 1 module, a replayable 1-2 quest, and Tome, you could get unlimited characters to 3.1.
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I've been keeping a list of evergreens and the rules for replaying them. It should be up to date.
I agree on why 3-7 was chosen. The level 6 doldrums can be pretty bad. It would make sense for that to be a part of the rationale.
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So the legwork is appreciated, and the information...
I know there's concern about L2 overpowering a L1-2 scenario, but in say, a L1-3 (like Gallows) would it be as much of a concern?
Trying to learn the rationale here.
As far as it goes, the resistance to playing non-evergreen at L2 stems from this:
Once a 'normal' scenario is played, it's done, save for replay options such as GM credit, CORE, etc.
So treating each non-evergreen scenario/module as a unique play opportunity can dramatically limit play options past 1.2 if modules are not being offered at the play venues I can attend.
I can't be the only one that has run into this issue.
Before folks chime in on the 'well, just play a pregen when a scenario is offered', it doesn't work like that if the table doesn't 'make'.
Also heading off at the pass: I'm not a farmer. I'm not looking for 'nifty things from chronicle'. I'm looking for replayable opportunities to help my characters jump the L2 hurdle (we have a L1 ramp in place already) to be able to play in L3 content.
Before folks say 'Well, just GM more', it doesn't help if I GM three evergreens to get a character to L2, and then they are stuck there, because then it turns either to 'one-off' on an 'evergreen' or 'risk the one GM/play on a scenario I know nothing about'.
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You're looking at it backwards Wei Ji.
Having some level 1 replay means that you can always form a table for new players.
Non level 1 replay does not accomplish that goal.
Tome of the Righteous Repose is a weird experiment.
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I see your post as a strong argument on why replay should not be extended any further. If we add level 2 repayable content then there's this mindset problem where
"Okay, I'll play these scenarios because I want to play level 3 content"
Those scenarios lose their meaning and specialness and just become a means to an end.
This is already a bit of an issue with the level 1 replayables but likely an acceptable cost for making sure that there is always content available for mixed tables of new and old players.
Lets not extend this zone any further.
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You're looking at it backwards Wei Ji.
Having some level 1 replay means that you can always form a table for new players.
Non level 1 replay does not accomplish that goal.
Tome of the Righteous Repose is a weird experiment.
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I see your post as a strong argument on why replay should not be extended any further. If we add level 2 repayable content then there's this mindset problem where
"Okay, I'll play these scenarios because I want to play level 3 content"
Those scenarios lose their meaning and specialness and just become a means to an end.
This is already a bit of an issue with the level 1 replayables but likely an acceptable cost for making sure that there is always content available for mixed tables of new and old players.
Lets not extend this zone any further.
Pirate Rob, I disagree with some of your comments.
Non level one replay may not accomplish that goal, but there are myriad other goals & good-will that it could accomplish. There's also the chronicle mining possibilities to ward against, so it's really a big topic, not limited to one 'goal', and should not be readily brushed aside.Good scenarios do not lose their meaning and specialness. As an example, there's ALWAYS meaning and specialness to Keep on the Borderlands for me. More on topic, Frostfur Captives is always good for laughs and good times.
I recognize the issues inherent in expanded replayability, but I would like to extend the zone further, given due diligence.
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You're looking at it backwards Wei Ji.
I see your post as a strong argument on why replay should not be extended any further. If we add level 2 repayable content then there's this mindset problem where
"Okay, I'll play these scenarios because I want to play level 3 content"
Those scenarios lose their meaning and specialness and just become a means to an end.
This is already a bit of an issue with the level 1 replayables but likely an acceptable cost for making sure that there is always content available for mixed tables of new and old players.
Lets not extend this zone any further.
Having seen the dangers of unfettered replay in other campaigns, I very much understand some of the concerns involved.
Would allowing evergreens to apply at L1 AND L2 really extend the zone all that much?
Alternatively, could a Boon be created that allows a character to waive L1 and/or L2 play entirely and character be granted 'base wealth/prestige'?
(ie, 1PP per scenario 'waived'/2PP for module and the module coin value for L1-2?)
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Chronicle sheet mining is not the issue.
It's about quality of experience.
Sure Frostfur Captives is good, maybe even great.
Is it nearly as good with players replaying it?
I've played Bid for Alabastrine twice and GM'd it once.
All of the experiences had quality, and the scenario was different on each run.
Frostfur isn't an 'evergreen', though, is it?
I'm looking at this possible 'niche' situation, for example:
*Insert Evergreen here* needs a player to launch. Only player who can play it has a bunch of L2 characters available... but has already played it on a different L2 character and is resistant to the idea of playing for either no credit or creating 'yet another' character(via the route of playing a pregen and applying credit).
How can this situation be made to work out for all parties involved without sending anyone home via table cancellation or pushing player to do this thing?
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There has been a charity auction boon in the past that allowed one to create a character at either level 4 or 5 (I don't remember which)
My recollection is that it went for quite a bit so there's at least some demand for skipping lower levels.
You may already know most of this but if you're trying to maximize your number of scenarios played there are a bunch of things you can do. (Not even including GMing/CORE)
Get your first 5 xp from re-playables
Scenario, Scenario, Module.
meaning your characters will not start burning play opportunities until lvl 2 (5xp)
You can play the following evergreen scenarios (read 1 xp play opportunities) once each at level 2
5-08 The Confirmation
6-10 The Wounded Wisp
7-10 The Consortium Compact
We Be Goblins
We B4 Goblins
This will let you bring 5 characters to level 3 without using up your only play opportunity for a scenario.
In addition you can play the following modules/AP legs once at level 2 (in addition to being evergreen at level 1)
Murder's Mark
Crypt of the Everflame
The Godsmouth Heresy
Thornkeep: The Accursed Halls
Emerald Spire 1: The Tower Ruins
Ire of the Storm p1
Gallows of Madness: A Foul Breed
Gallows of Madness: What Lurks in the Woods
Gallows of Madness: The Festering Blot
Mummy's Mask 1: The Half-Dead City
Reign of Winter 1: The Snows of Summer
This lets you bring 11 more characters to level 3.2 without using up your only play opportunity for an adventure.
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If you're willing/able to GM obviously those above all double, getting you from 16 characters to level 3 via only replayables to 32.
Also If you have some GM replays available the most cost efficient expenditure for them assuming the only thing you care about is maximizing xp is to use 3 on Gallows of Madness due to the bonus sheets and ability to play a part at level 1.
Example: Play GoM 1,2,3. Gain 12xp, end at level 5. (Uses your play for parts 2/3)
Then play GoM 2,1,3 Gain 12xp, and end at level 5. (Uses your play for part 1 and your replay for part 3)
Then play GoM 3,2,1 Gain 12xp, and end at level 5. (Uses your replay for parts 1/2)
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*Insert Evergreen here* needs a player to launch. Only player who can play it has a bunch of L2 characters available... but has already played it on a different L2 character and is resistant to the idea of playing for either no credit or creating 'yet another' character(via the route of playing a pregen and applying credit).How can this situation be made to work out for all parties involved without sending anyone home via table cancellation or pushing player to do this thing?
Assuming the level 2 player is unwilling/unable to GM, swap to a level 1 character, use a GM star...
And the GM is unwilling/unable to swap to a different adventure that the level 2 player (as well as the other 2) could play.Everybody is out of luck :(
You could go back in time to the Play, Play Play! era of PFS that said no play opportunity left behind, which allowed players to replay, or play out of tier if it was their only option.
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Also I did remember the re-playable option at level 2:
In fact it's re-playable at any level (1-5): Ambush Under Absalom.
I suspect you'll find it a non-acceptable solution due to its rewards though.
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You could go back in time to the Play, Play Play! era of PFS that said no play opportunity left behind, which allowed players to replay, or play out of tier if it was their only option.
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Also I did remember the re-playable option at level 2:
In fact it's re-playable at any level (1-5): Ambush Under Absalom.
I suspect you'll find it a non-acceptable solution due to its rewards though.
I suspect, however, using that as leverage might persuade someone to play a pregen L1...
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History time:
Play, Play, Play!Our number one rule in Pathfinder Society Organized Play is to get as many people playing as often as possible.
If the rules are preventing you from getting a legal table assembled for play, then the rules need to change. You, as the GM or coordinator, have the ability to stretch the rules in small ways (most of which are stated in this document) in order to ensure that as many players as possible can play.
Never turn away players! If you feel the rules are forcing you to turn someone away, ask on the Pathfinder Society messageboards or email pathfindersociety@ paizo.com for guidance on how to handle your specific situation. Turning away players only serves to build walls between the Society and new players—avoid doing so whenever possible!
Although even this rule wouldn't have solved your problem actually. Because it would have said yes you can play, no you still don't get credit.
Blog from ~6 months later takes most of the teeth away from that very misused rule.
Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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You could go back in time to the Play, Play Play! era of PFS that said no play opportunity left behind, which allowed players to replay, or play out of tier if it was their only option.Noooooo!!!!!!!!!! *Head explodes*
Goodness...I had just finished cleaning up this place after the last play, play, play reference!
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Boon be created that allows a character to waive L1 and/or L2 play entirely and character be granted 'base wealth/prestige'?
The best boon ever is Glutton for Punishment.
The second best boon ever would be "Start a 3rd level character with (1398*2 gp and 9 pp)"Some (like me) kinda hate level 1-3. I GM credit it to 3, 4, or 5 asap.
I often run this sequence for new characters:
1x #Q: Silverhex Chronicles (1; GM)
1x #6-10: The Wounded Wisp (1-2)
3x #M: Murder's Mark (1-2; GM)
Noticed I MUST burn a Tier 1-5 scenario to hit level 3.
I really wish I didn't need to do so.
I really wish there was a 2-4 replay scenario.
I'm aware a lot of Tier 1-2 exist for 2nd level play. I never do so, because it is a "precious resource" and I'll hold it to then end of time to make sure I have it available if needed. I'm not alone in this way of thinking. It sucks.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Levels 1-3 are where ...
level 1-5 scenario Judge credits on my 5th level guys ...
time they hit 7th level, I normally loose a lot of interest
"To each his own..." I guess
Yep!
I'll avoid 1-5 when possible.
I'll usually play level 5-7.
If I manage to get a level 7, I'm in "ONLY THIS GUY" to level 12!!!! And it's the most fun possible.
This means I'll go home if I can only play level 1-5 scenario. I'll apply most if not all credit to a new PC GM blob.
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Now that would be a cool boon? Character trading. Seems just like selling toons in Everquest/World of Warcraft.
Except in most MMOs that'd be shady, to say the least.
With a Boon and official support, it's far less so.
However, it should merit noting that if such a boon became available, it'd probably be exceptionally rare (we're talking Goblin boon/PFS Red Mantis/Catfolk territory here) so it'd cost as much to acquire as some folks spend on a new car, if history bears any indication...
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Looking to trade Farak, Most Powerful Mage in ALL Absalom.
Has Grand Convocation unique sheets including inherent Wisdom bonus from Know Your God.
Looking for US Treasury Reserve Note gift certificates (definitely not cash). Or cool minis (like the entire set of Kingdom Death along with rules and box)
Or 2x Glutton for Punishment.
Ive also got a grandfathered Mystic Theurge. A couple characters with grandfathered exotic heirloom weapons and chronicle sheets from all the retired season 0 scenarios.
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I'm a bit of James and nosig.
I abhor playing 1, and dislike playing 2. When it comes to classes like Wizards I'd rather yank out my toenails than play until about 4.
But I do really enjoy 3-7 and once I like a character a lot, I find 8 & 9 enjoyable here and there. That's where I begin to struggle though - I'm okay running, but I don't particularly like playing level's 10 and 11. I think primarily I start getting frustrated with the way Pathfinder doesn't handle higher level play as well (combats lasting two rounds, poor scaling).
So when I'm GMing I'll puppy pile GM credits on a character until they're 3, and then try hard not to spend too many on any one given character until they hit 8. After that, I really could not care less how much I get to play, so I'll GM credit like mad.
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I still like the idea of removing the level two restriction on Tier 1-2 replay...not to mention removing a rule that is hard to track ("have I played this one at level two yet?") and annoying to have to explain to new players.
That is perhaps the best worded argument I've ever heard allowing evergreens to be evergreen at 1 and 2. Color me convinced.
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It's hard to explain sure, but a level 2 have 2500 gp more in items and double the class features. Kinda translates to owning the scenario.
They're all tier 1-2 scenarios, designed to have level 2's in the mix. If that weren't the case they'd be "Level 1 only" scenarios. I've watched a group of half level 2's get destroyed by Consortum Compact. So this isn't exactly a solidly backed up rationale.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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It's hard to explain sure, but a level 2 have 2500 gp more in items and double the class features. Kinda translates to owning the scenario.
But if that was really the concern, why are they allowed to play in the scenario in the first place?
Rather, I think the tier 1 replayability of the Confirmation et al. is just the continuation of the policy that existed already for First Steps.
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It would certainly make things easier to have replayable scenarios simply... replayable at whatever levels are in tier.
Tome of Righteous Repose (the 3-7) is replayable at every level. Have there been any concerns or complaints about that level of replayability? I haven't seen any.
I'm wondering because it's not simply tier 1-2 that would be affected. You have the replayable tier 1-3 Gallows of Madness modules (as well as the 1-5 quest arc, House of Harmonious Wisdom) that would need to be updated, or else things get even more inconsistent than they are now. If you don't update the rules for them, or you up the replayability cap to 2 but not to every level in tier, you still end up with the same problem--only now, it's for an even smaller list of special snowflakes. I'm not sure that's better overall.
If you do update the rules to include replay at all levels in tier, that could have a larger effect than what we've been discussing. I like the idea--if it's replayable, it's replayable--but there is more risk there to the campaign.
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...as well as the 1-5 quest arc, House of Harmonious Wisdom) that would need to be updated, or else things get even more inconsistent than they are now...
That is an interesting question to me. What prompted adding a replayable 3-7, but saying "yeah, you can't replay this 1-5", other than the obvious "how it's designed".
I still don't like the idea of replay, but in some cases (Tome of Rigteous Repose) I can see how it made sense.
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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I still like the idea of removing the level two restriction on Tier 1-2 replay...not to mention removing a rule that is hard to track ("have I played this one at level two yet?") and annoying to have to explain to new players.That is perhaps the best worded argument I've ever heard allowing evergreens to be evergreen at 1 and 2. Color me convinced.
It would make the sceduling of the evergreens so much easier if people would not need to dig trough their paperwork to see if theycanplay atlvl 3 or would nwed to make a new.lvl 1
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I thought all the tier 1-2 were designed for 1st level and made tier 1-2 only due to the limited number of times you will see a 2nd in them.
It's possible. But I think it's only half top-down planning and half design drift based on how things worked with the previous year's one.
The Confirmation is a bit feeble at L2. But the L2 Wounded Wisp can have some spicy moments. Depending on which enemies you select in the final encounter in particular, and how well they take positions. Same in Consortium Compact.
Those adventures aren't designed to be bloodcurdlingly deadly, but rather to showcase a wide variety of challenges that your still-rebuildable (L1) character should have a plan for (swarms, social, mindless, traps etc.).
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Those adventures aren't designed to be bloodcurdlingly deadly, but rather to showcase a wide variety of challenges that your still-rebuildable (L1) character should have a plan for (swarms, social, mindless, traps etc.).
My personal experience running and prepping the evergreens is to try and get 'stuff what folks haven't seen before' starting with myself. So my 'opponents' for the Confirmation weren't what typically gets tossed into the encounters for the 'random' parts.
In fact, the first one of Confirmation (aside from briefing) was really memorable due to it, even!
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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And that's great and all, but what portion of the player base is even aware of that tool, let alone actually use it?It would make the sceduling of the evergreens so much easier if people would not need to dig trough their paperwork to see if they can play at lvl 3 or would need to make a new lvl 1.Or we could ask Simon to add a played at 2+ option to the pfstracker.
Locally 99%.
If you have scheduling issues and don't require your playerbase to use a tool like www.pfstracker.net, maybe you should try it out!
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And that's great and all, but what portion of the player base is even aware of that tool, let alone actually use it?It would make the sceduling of the evergreens so much easier if people would not need to dig trough their paperwork to see if they can play at lvl 3 or would need to make a new lvl 1.Or we could ask Simon to add a played at 2+ option to the pfstracker.
Here in MN it's used to coordinate "flex tables" at game days. Nearly everybody is registered and/or knows about it.
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Thornkeep level 2 replayability would not be too easy.
Having gmed murders mark it I would not sure how much fun playing it multiple times would be knowing the spoilers to a murder game. The maps might still make the combat interesting.
With people not registering for games and just showing up this could make making a whole new table if nesecary a whole lot easier if someone has all the maps for the confirmation like in their car in a box they bring for gming just in case too many show up.