How much should this item cost?


Advice


Hi, one of my players asked me to create a custom item. The problem is that he is being a little unreasonable about the price and capabilities.
What he wants is either some googles or bracers that allow him to cast True Strike as a free action, if possible, several times a day.

Already, that is too powerful for my liking, and I did not find a way to calculate a price for that with the rules of item creation. The solution I came up to was to calculate the cost as if the spell was casted with the quickening metamagic setting the level to 5 instead of 1 and make it a switf action and using the command word column in the table to work the numbers.

That gave me the following price: 9th casterl level x 5th spell level x 1800 = 81,000 gp.
However, what I don't get is how to add the daily uses for it. According to the table it says: Divide by (5 divided by charges per day), and to my understanding, that makes 5 uses divide the final price by 1 and 1 use divide by 5? Which makes no sense to me. It is the opposite?

In any case, I'm not sure about letting him create this item or looking for another alternative. Is there an item out there that works in a similar fashion?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

You have the correct interpretation of the division effect. So 5/day would appear to be 81,000, while the 1/day equivalent would be 1/5 that price (16,200).

I don't think it's a good idea to allow the item, but your modifications are a good start. And at least you have the math right. ^_^


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OldRolero wrote:
Is there an item out there that works in a similar fashion?

There are a few items that function as free actions: boots of speed, torc of bloody rage, the sneaky weapon ability. But it's rare for good reason. IMHO true strike is a 1st-level spell in the first place only because of its cumbersome action economy. Take that away and it would be much higher.

I wouldn't allow the item at all, even with a swift action.


In fact, the boots of haste were what gave him the idea :P

In any case, with their current gold, he will only be able to afford the one per day use version, and for 16,200 that is reasonable for me. Thanks for the clarification Kalindlara ;)

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Remember the first thing to do when pricing is compare to a similar item. Don't look at it as a 1/day quickened spell, look at what it actually does. The player wants an item that x/day gives him +20 to hit and ignores miss chance. A +20 weapon would run about 800000 gp so that should be your starting point. Cut it in half because there's no damage bonus, and I'd call the miss chance thing a wash with this item not helping pierce DR the way a true +20 weapon would. So 400000 for the 5/day version. 1/day 80000gp.


if it can help, there was a similar item in the Magic Item Compendium in 3.5.

Just look on the internet for: Gauntlets of True strike. It's a 1/d item, that cost 3500 gp, but on command = Std action (not free).

I personnally would not allow free as it is too strong in my opinion, but a would agree with your quickened true strike evaluation. IF you compare with the gauntlets, your calculation would sound good.

Roric provided another good way to look at it. I've seen the same argument when there was a debate about the Continous ring of true strike.

I tend to agree with him for an item that would be continous, as the cost for a weapon bonus assume a continous effect. But a continous true strike is way overpowered I think....

Personnaly, I would not pay for 80,000 gp for a 1/day free true strike. Maybe 20-30,000 gp, but more than that, I believe I probably could get better things...but of course, it depends on your build!


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
OldRolero wrote:
Is there an item out there that works in a similar fashion?

There are a few items that function as free actions: boots of speed, torc of bloody rage, the sneaky weapon ability. But it's rare for good reason. IMHO true strike is a 1st-level spell in the first place only because of its cumbersome action economy. Take that away and it would be much higher.

I wouldn't allow the item at all, even with a swift action.

I agree.

I would not allow such an item if it allowed for activation and an attack in the same round. So, nothing less than Standard Activation would exist on my table.


I don't see a problem with creating this item if it requires the same standard action to activate.

If you use the use-activated/contonious, you could argue the cost could be 8,000g. Spell Level (1) x caster level (1) x 2000g x 4 (for durations of rounds/lvl). I'd say probably a times 8 since it is one attack, not rounds/lvl, increasing the total cost to 16,000g.

This might be a rare or very unique item. A spell caster may require you pay him for his time too, materials, or other things.


The answer is no.

First off, you can't really create this item as a command word or spell trigger item, because activating such an item is always a standard action. Placing a quickened spell in, for example, does not change the game mechanics of how you get the effect out. It's the same reason why it's silly to put Feather Fall in a wand, scroll, or potion. By the time you were able to activate it, you'd already hit the ground.

I'm with ryric that you have to look at the effect of the item to figure out how to model it. What it really does is let you produce a spell trigger effect as a faster-than-standard action, N times per day. And the problem there is that there is no magic item to my knowledge that lets you do that, save for rings like Feather Falling and Counterspells--and only then because they have an automatic-trigger condition that is easily defined. So there's no basis for modeling this True Strike thing as a spell trigger item, much less calculating a cost.

If you want the "treat it as a magic weapon" approach, you have two problems. The first is that the spell produces an effect that weapons cannot: a +20 bonus is not a legal weapon enchantment. On top of that, the spell applies to any attack, not just to a specific weapon. So it's much more broad in its application.

So you see the problem. The request is for something that just doesn't exist, and I don't mean conceptually: I mean philosophically. The game system design doesn't support its existence at all.

Items that break game design rules like this exist as artifacts, when they exist at all. So. Offer them an extremely dangerous quest to obtain the Mystical Artifact of Striking True, and then maybe you have something (edited to add: which is not a bad idea, though admittedly I am biased). But otherwise? No.


All custom magic items are only allowed if the GM says so.

You have every right to just say, 'No'.

Many GMs fail to do this and then in a few weeks time realize the error and try and counter it in game.

Player gets annoyed.

Everyone starts posting on forums 'What to do with problem GM/Player' probably with multiple explanation marks.

Save your self endless plain now and say 'No'


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Spacelard wrote:

All custom magic items are only allowed if the GM says so.

You have every right to just say, 'No'.

Many GMs fail to do this and then in a few weeks time realize the error and try and counter it in game.

Player gets annoyed.

Everyone starts posting on forums 'What to do with problem GM/Player' probably with multiple explanation marks.

Save your self endless plain now and say 'No'

Agreed 100%.

I would say "no" to this item in my game.


I think you math and methods are right on. While I certainly wouldn't allow an at-will or constant item like this, at 5 times a day it isn't that broken. The only thing I might add is that it could not be activated in the middle of an attack routine, as getting a +20 on your first attack is generally quite a bit less powerful than getting it on your last iterative.

Really I don't think that this is nearly as broken as people seem to think. What it probably does most of the time is change the chance of an attack succeeding from maybe 50% to 95% (we'll assume they will only use it on a hard to attack foe, but they are martial focused enough to have a fairly good chance of hitting anyway). It doesn't add any damage at all to an attack.

Really the biggest chances for this to be exploitative are either combat maneuvers or touch attack spells. While a nearly guaranteed success on a maneuver can be quite handy, it probably isn't going to break the game, especially compared to what other things that sort of money could be spent on. Similarly, so many opponents have low enough touch ACs that it probably won't make or break anything there either.

One thing for all the naysayers about how broken this is, a 3rd level magus with want wielder can basically do this every round for 50 rounds for 750 gold. To the best of my knowledge, that hasn't 'broken' the game.


Dave Justus wrote:
One thing for all the naysayers about how broken this is, a 3rd level magus with want wielder can basically do this every round for 50 rounds for 750 gold.

...as a full round/full attack action, with a -2 penalty on all the attack rolls made that round, with a weapon in one hand and the other hand free.

And that's for a very specific class that is literally designed for spell combat, with a specific class feature.

The ask is for a True Strike item which can be activated as a free action with no other penalties or restrictions.


I mean, it's not like a fighter using Power Attack with a two-handed weapon does more damage than a non-spellstriking magus.

Really, the situations are virtually identical.


I would allow it at the 16,200 per charge (up to 5) as a move action. I wouldn't go down to swift or free.


John Mechalas wrote:


The ask is for a True Strike item which can be activated as a free action with no other penalties or restrictions.

The OP was already talking about changing that from swift to free. I was referring to what the OP proposed.

Honeybee wrote:

I mean, it's not like a fighter using Power Attack with a two-handed weapon does more damage than a non-spellstriking magus.

Really, the situations are virtually identical.

As I pointed out, the Fighter isn't all that likely to miss anyway, particularly if this is limited to the first attack.

Achieving an attack roll of 45 doesn't do extra damage against an AC of 25.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

Agreed that the first-attack limitation does change things for the fighter (and various other users). I'd expect them to use it on the second or third to maximize potential damage.


Dave Justus wrote:
John Mechalas wrote:


The ask is for a True Strike item which can be activated as a free action with no other penalties or restrictions.
The OP was already talking about changing that from swift to free. I was referring to what the OP proposed.

Fair enough. There's still a difference between swift action and a full attack action. As a swift action, the character still gets a standard action and a move action to play with. The magus example locks the player into a full attack, and they only get one weapon.

It's not so much the +20 to hit as it is that plus no significant downside while also messing with the action economy. That's a bridge too far in my book. YMMV.

Making it an artifact would be sensible. Back in the AD&D days, artifacts came with drawbacks that manifested when you used them (or didn't use them as the case may be). Maybe incur a -4 penalty to initiative rolls while the item is in your possession or something, and it has to be in your possession before entering initiative for it to work.


I agree with the penalty idea. Maybe less damage?


maybe instead of a flat 20 have it double all his current non bab non ability score to hit bonuses and ignore mischance when using the ability(weapon focus, weapon training, weapon enchantment ect.) and have it be activate able as a swift action 5/day this way he also needs to invest into other increases to hit to get the most out of the ability.

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