Reassigning Pregen death in specials

[Blackbot]

Hi there,

has there been any clarification how to handle the death of a pregen in a special (e.g. Serpent's Ire)?

From what I've seen, there are two trains of thought and I wonder if this has been clarified. I certainly cannot find anything.
First, to make this FAQ-markable:

Do the rules preventing reassigning the death of a pregen to the specials which force use of a pregen?

Second, the trains of thought from what I've gathered:

Version 1:
No pregen death can ever be reassigned. The new rules are written with all pregens in mind to raise the stakes and prevent players from being "careless" with their character.
If you decide to apply the chronicle sheet to one of your characters before the scenario and your pregen dies, your character dies.
Since the guide makes no exception for pregens in specials, it's obvious those rules apply to them as well.

Version 2:
The pregen deaths in specials can be reassigned. The new rule is intended to "protect" the "real" characters from reckless pregen use. Since everybody plays a pregen, nobody is in real danger and it would be unfair - you are forced to play a pregen from a very limited pool and do not even have the option to play a character up to this level.
The rules are introduced with step one ("Choose one of the pregenerated characters available in Community Use Package: Pathfinder Society Pregenerated Characters at paizo.com/communityuse/package") which cannot be fulfilled in the mentioned special scenarios.
Also, the rule about resurrection ("The Roleplaying Guild character must contribute a minimum amount of gp before spending the pregenerated character’s wealth in this way, depending on her level: 0 gp for a 1st-level pregenerated character, 1,000 gp for 4th-level, and 2,000 gp for 7th-level.") cannot be applied since some pregens have levels which are not exactly 1, 4 or 7.
Concluding: It is obvious those rules do not apply to them.

Sooooo...have they ever said one way or the other?

[Gary Bush]

Version 1 I believe is the answer.

[SCPRedMage]

Version 1 is absolutely the correct answer; you choose which character to assign the pregen credit to at the beginning of the adventure, and there is no longer any option to change that.

That said, it was officially stated in a blog post that the rule about having to spend from your own wealth before selling the pregen's gear to pay to remove conditions (including death) does not apply to scenarios that inherently require you to play a pregen, such as any of the We Be Goblins series.

[FLite]

Also, some of the specials have special rules. For example:

Maelstrom:

At the end, the concordance offers to pay to remove all conditions gained

[Alanya]

Clearly I am ready for Starfinder - I read the title of this thread as Reassigning Pregen death in space...

[Starglim]

Jared Thaler wrote:

Also, some of the specials have special rules. For example:

** spoiler omitted **

Likewise, at least two of the We be Goblins series.

[Lune]

Yeah, there are some specials where you play pregens and party cohesion is not assumed and the ban on pvp is lifted. Motivations are even given to characters for the party to dysfunction. Sometimes you are even rewarded for killing a party member. And sometimes when these things are true it doesn't even have special rules for not having to assigning a dead chronicle to your character.

I can understand why, in these circumstances, it doesn't seem fair to have to apply your dead chronicle to your character. In many of these situations I can see one feeling forced into playing a character they didn't want to play, doing things they didn't want to do, having motivations they hadn't planned for and don't like playing and this all culminating in the death of a character that they DO like and have invested their own time and money into. Not just in game time and money but actual real world time and money.

[Blackbot]

So the consensus is that there is no consensus:

Gary says "I believe 1 is right".
SCPRedMage says "Version 1 is completely right but the rez thing has been changed in some blog post" - great, by the way, that this is not in the FAQ as well - which I have been unable to find.
Jared Thaler says that it doesn't matter because some scenarios have special rules about that stuff, which doesn't help for the older ones.
Lune agrees with me that it is stupid for scenarios where PvP is not directly encouraged, but not frowned upon either to enforce the rule of killing the main character.

Okay, no consensus is saying a bit much.
More like "It seems to be version 1 but we agree this is stupid."

I'm gonna expect table variation then. ;)

[Gary Bush]

I wouldn't say there is no consensus. The method is laid out in the Season 8 guide. But it has been acknowledged in a blog that the wording was not good and this one of the reasons they are working on a Season 8A guide (however i think it will just become Season 9).

When you play, at the beginning of an adventure, you have to declare what character number the pre-gen will be applied to. The character will gain the benefits (chronicle) and consequences (death and conditions) from the adventure. The only thing not clear is what to if said pre-gen dies.

[TimD]

The last word was that it was going to be reexamined, but we've not seen anything yet since then.

[YogoZuno]

Gary Bush wrote:

The character will gain ...consequences (death and conditions) from the adventure. The only thing not clear is what to if said pre-gen dies.

You realise you just contradicted yourself, right? In actual fact, it currently is pretty clear that if the pregen dies, the character dies. It's just a consequence some people aren't happy with.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

Michael Clarke wrote:

Gary Bush wrote:

The character will gain ...consequences (death and conditions) from the adventure. The only thing not clear is what to if said pre-gen dies.

You realise you just contradicted yourself, right? In actual fact, it currently is pretty clear that if the pregen dies, the character dies. It's just a consequence some people aren't happy with.

And why the new 'take this pregen or shove it' specials haven't been as successful, I believe?

[Gary Bush]

Michael Clarke wrote:

Gary Bush wrote:

The character will gain ...consequences (death and conditions) from the adventure. The only thing not clear is what to if said pre-gen dies.

You realise you just contradicted yourself, right? In actual fact, it currently is pretty clear that if the pregen dies, the character dies. It's just a consequence some people aren't happy with.

While that is true, I was more speaking to the manner in which the death is handled.

[andreww]

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

And why the new 'take this pregen or shove it' specials haven't been as successful, I believe?

I have found them to be extremely popular, especially Serpents Rise.

[Ascalaphus]

I distinctly remember there being a statement somewhere that the death tax only applied to the iconic pregens. As in, when you choose to play a pregen instead of a regular PC (even if it's because you specifically don't have a PC of the right level) then the pregen's risk is also the PC's risk.

But in scenarios where you don't choose to but, have to play a pregen, you're clearly not trying to hide behind an expendable pregen to cowardly avoid risk. So the reason for the death tax doesn't exist in that case.

I haven't been able to dig up the reference yet though.

[GreySector]

Tonya posted about it here.

Tonya Woldridge wrote:

As for the dead pregen issue - Any resources on the chronicle in question may be used to resolve the character "deductible" owed if raising a pregenerated iconic character. How this applies to pregenerated specials is something I want to discuss with the team before proceeding.

I'm not aware of any followup to that statement.

[Jim Cirillo]

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

I distinctly remember there being a statement somewhere that the death tax only applied to the iconic pregens. As in, when you choose to play a pregen instead of a regular PC (even if it's because you specifically don't have a PC of the right level) then the pregen's risk is also the PC's risk.

But in scenarios where you don't choose to but, have to play a pregen, you're clearly not trying to hide behind an expendable pregen to cowardly avoid risk. So the reason for the death tax doesn't exist in that case.

I haven't been able to dig up the reference yet though.

If this is the case then it's the most logical outcome I can think of for this issue. If you play a pre-gen in a scenario that you could normally play a PC then pre-gen death would apply to your character but if you're playing in a scenario that only allows you to play pre-gens then your pre-gen's death should not apply to your character.

[nosig]

Jim Cirillo wrote:

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

I distinctly remember there being a statement somewhere that the death tax only applied to the iconic pregens. As in, when you choose to play a pregen instead of a regular PC (even if it's because you specifically don't have a PC of the right level) then the pregen's risk is also the PC's risk.

But in scenarios where you don't choose to but, have to play a pregen, you're clearly not trying to hide behind an expendable pregen to cowardly avoid risk. So the reason for the death tax doesn't exist in that case.

I haven't been able to dig up the reference yet though.

If this is the case then it's the most logical outcome I can think of for this issue. If you play a pre-gen in a scenario that you could normally play a PC then pre-gen death would apply to your character but if you're playing in a scenario that only allows you to play pre-gens then your pre-gen's death should not apply to your character.

This is not the case though.

Death in a scenario where you are required to play a provided PC (other than the Goblin scenarios that have their own instructions provided in the scenario), will reflect back onto the PC the player assigned it to.

Take the current special 7–98: Serpents' Ire. The instructions I have been repeatedly given before running it are:

Players sit down, and sign in, marking which PC number they will be assigning this game to. After the sign-up sheet is filled out (after they have committed to which PC the game applies to), provide the characters so that the players can decide which they each will be using - what they will be playing today. For 4 player tables, remove the 2 "optional" PCs, so that only the 4 main characters are available. PC Deaths and Conditions Gained all have to be resolved before the Players leave the table. PCs unable to resolve/remove conditions are to be marked "dead".

(Edit: as a side note, the only thing I am short for my 5th start is running one more Special. Two of the times I have prepped 7–98: Serpents' Ire, the table has failed to "make". These table failures were at least partly, I think, due to the policy change on re-assigning Pre-gen deaths.)

As I have said before, as far as I can tell, this was a bad rule change. I have still not seen anything good come of it, and have seen it negatively impact play.

[SCPRedMage]

Again, this has already been ruled on.

Quote:

Any scenario or module that mandates you play a pregenerated character, like 6-99 Through Maelstrom Rift or We Be Goblins!, will not require the pregenerated character contributions listed in the guide. Refer to the applicable sanctioning documents or chronicle sheet for changes to base resolution costs. For example, We Be Goblins, Too! lists the cost to raise as 5 PP. This change is scheduled to appear in the revised version of the guide.

[Blackbot]

Thank you so much.
This blog has indeed been mentioned several times, but I was unable to find it myself and nobody provided a link.
That stuff should go into the FAQ!

Also, please do not let this thread devolve into another round of "Are the new rules good or bad?"
That was not my intention and I think it has been discussed to death.