Light Source Specifics


Pathfinder Society

Dark Archive 4/5 Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane aka YogoZuno

Can somebody please point me to an official answer to the following questions? Or at least point out RAW? Basically, I'm not interested in any opinions, just facts.

These questions are all about Ioun Torches and Everburning torches in PFS play. Both Ioun and Everburning torches are described as being items with a Continual Flame cast on them.

1. Do the items count against the limit of one Continual Flame per character? i.e. you can't have both of these items in your possession. Or, are they considered manufactured items, and therefore don't count against that limit? Or is the answer different for each item?
2. Is there any official spell level for the Continual Flame? Do you assume it is cast by a wizard, similar to potions, scrolls and wands, or do you specify when you buy it as one or the other? Does the price change if you want a higher level version?
3. Is the spell level different between the two items? Does the increased cost of the Everburning Torch indicate a higher level of spell, and therefore a higher caster level?

Shadow Lodge

Michael Clarke wrote:

Can somebody please point me to an official answer to the following questions? Or at least point out RAW? Basically, I'm not interested in any opinions, just facts.

These questions are all about Ioun Torches and Everburning torches in PFS play. Both Ioun and Everburning torches are described as being items with a Continual Flame cast on them.

1. Do the items count against the limit of one Continual Flame per character? i.e. you can't have both of these items in your possession. Or, are they considered manufactured items, and therefore don't count against that limit? Or is the answer different for each item?

I would assume so but the Everburning torch is an Item in the Core book so maybe it plays differently

Michael Clarke wrote:
2. Is there any official spell level for the Continual Flame? Do you assume it is cast by a wizard, similar to potions, scrolls and wands, or do you specify when you buy it as one or the other? Does the price change if you want a higher level version?

Official level is 2 and buying a higher level is not an option

however IF you adventure with a PC that has the Highten Feat you can get a Higher level Version

Michael Clarke wrote:
3. Is the spell level different between the two items? Does the increased cost of the Everburning Torch indicate a higher level of spell, and therefore a higher caster level

by the way it reads its a standard Continual flame and the cost doesnt add up to higher level

[3(Spell level) X 5 (Caster Level)x10] = 150
[4(Spell Level) x 7 (Caster level)x10] = 280

TBH Im not sure why an Everburning Torch is more expensive than an Ioun Torch asidse from the fact that the Ioun Torch is in Seeker of Secrets IIRC

Dark Archive 4/5 Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane aka YogoZuno

Wraith235 wrote:


Michael Clarke wrote:
2. Is there any official spell level for the Continual Flame? Do you assume it is cast by a wizard, similar to potions, scrolls and wands, or do you specify when you buy it as one or the other? Does the price change if you want a higher level version?

Official level is 2 and buying a higher level is not an option

however IF you adventure with a PC that has the Highten Feat you can get a Higher level Version

What's your source for that assertion?

Wraith235 wrote:


Michael Clarke wrote:
3. Is the spell level different between the two items? Does the increased cost of the Everburning Torch indicate a higher level of spell, and therefore a higher caster level

by the way it reads its a standard Continual flame and the cost doesnt add up to higher level

[3(Spell level) X 5 (Caster Level)x10] = 150
[4(Spell Level) x 7 (Caster level)x10] = 280

TBH Im not sure why an Everburning Torch is more expensive than an Ioun Torch asidse from the fact that the Ioun Torch is in Seeker of Secrets IIRC

Ioun Torch is actually from APG, not Seeker of Secrets. The Everburning Torch is also listed as normal equipment, while Iuon Torch is listed as a Wondrous Item, and apparently actually requires Craft Wondrous Items to build! Now that I look at it, the Ioun Torch is costed as 25gp for the burned out Ioun stone, and 50gp for the material component for the Continual Flame. Nothing is charged for the spellcasting. For an everburning torch, it appears to be costed at the material component, plus 60gp for the 2nd level caster and 3rd level spell.

Shadow Lodge

Michael Clarke wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:


Michael Clarke wrote:
2. Is there any official spell level for the Continual Flame? Do you assume it is cast by a wizard, similar to potions, scrolls and wands, or do you specify when you buy it as one or the other? Does the price change if you want a higher level version?

Official level is 2 and buying a higher level is not an option

however IF you adventure with a PC that has the Highten Feat you can get a Higher level Version

What's your source for that assertion?

IIRC in the Guide to organized play anything bought is bought at Minimum caster level unless it shows up on a chronicle sheet at a higher caster level
e.g. Wand of Magic missile CL 5 (8 charges) 600gp is an example of one that shows up on a season 8 chronicle

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Due to the PFS rules Wraith235 mentioned both are spell level 2 and CL 3, despite pricing differences.

How many of those items you can purchase (and how an additional continual flame casting interacts) might benefit from a clarification.

Silver Crusade 2/5

The question about continual flame is because it is a 2nd level spell on the wizard list, and a 3d level spell on the cleric list. The question isn't about caster level, and there isn't a need for Heighten Spell to get the increased spell level.

So, my question is: can you have an NPC cleric cast your continual flame for you? Or does it require a PC cleric to get spell level 3?

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

No.

Yeah.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Relevant Citations:

Roleplaying Guild Guide, v8.0, page 20 wrote:

Use the following rules for purchasing potions, scrolls,

and wands.

If a spell appears at different levels on two different
lists, use the lower level spell to determine cost (for
example, poison would be priced as a 3rd-level druid
spell instead of a 4th-level cleric spell).

So in the case of continual flame, you assume it is based on the lower spell level, which is 2.

As for the other, my search-fu is failing me, but Mike Brock did indicate that you can only have one (1) continual flame effect carry forward from adventure to adventure. This includes items such as ioun torches and everburning torch.

This passage certainly more than implies this is the case:

Roleplaying Guilde Guide, v8.0, page 21 wrote:

• A character can have one each of the following spells

on an item or items that carries over from adventure
to adventure: continual flame, masterwork transformation
(Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 228), secret chest, and
secret page.

In this case, the item or items would be the ioun torch or everburning torch.

Dark Archive 4/5 Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane aka YogoZuno

Quote:
So in the case of continual flame, you assume it is based on the lower spell level, which is 2.

Both you and Wraith have asserted the same thing, but look at the text you quoted - that assumption is explicitly only for potions, scrolls and wands. An Ioun Torch is none of these, and there is no similar rule for other items.

Quote:
In this case, the item or items would be the ioun torch or everburning torch.

That's what I'm trying to clarify. Although the description for both items seems to say they are just continual flame castings, there are a number of details missing, like the caster level and the spell caster. In addition, the Ioun Torch is a magic item that requires Craft Wondrous Item to create - doesn't this actually indicate it is a manufactured item? Or is the feat only required to build the gray ioun stone? I'd like to confirm this. If the Ioun Torch counts as an item, and doesn't count against the limit of continual flame castings, then it has extra use and value. If not, then you are better off paying the few gold extra to have an NPC cast Heightened Continual Flame onto an Ioun Stone that you purchase.


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You can't have an NPC cast Heightened Continual Flame.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1hh#v5748eaic9vhv

Can I buy a magic item or spellcasting services with a metamagic feat applied, such as a scroll of maximized fireball, a wand of empowered shocking grasp, or employ the services of a wizard to cast extended mass bull's strength?

Generally, no. You may not apply metamagic feats when purchasing magic items or spellcasting services. The only exception is when the item or service is specifically listed as a reward on a Chronicle sheet.

Scarab Sages

As for the Ioun torch, if you lock up the item description it states it is a dull gray stone with Continual Flame cast on it. It is Caster Level 12 in the item write up.

Given the rules for PFS that spells are cast from the lowest level spell caster able to do so the Ioun Touch would act as a Level 2 spell with Caster Level 12. It can cancel Darkness but not Deeper Darkness, and has a caster level 12 if the target of a Dispel..

EverBurning Torch as for the description given I believe would be Spell level 2, Caster Level 3 from a wizard.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Michael Clarke wrote:
Quote:
So in the case of continual flame, you assume it is based on the lower spell level, which is 2.

Both you and Wraith have asserted the same thing, but look at the text you quoted - that assumption is explicitly only for potions, scrolls and wands. An Ioun Torch is none of these, and there is no similar rule for other items.

Quote:
In this case, the item or items would be the ioun torch or everburning torch.
That's what I'm trying to clarify. Although the description for both items seems to say they are just continual flame castings, there are a number of details missing, like the caster level and the spell caster. In addition, the Ioun Torch is a magic item that requires Craft Wondrous Item to create - doesn't this actually indicate it is a manufactured item? Or is the feat only required to build the gray ioun stone? I'd like to confirm this. If the Ioun Torch counts as an item, and doesn't count against the limit of continual flame castings, then it has extra use and value. If not, then you are better off paying the few gold extra to have an NPC cast Heightened Continual Flame onto an Ioun Stone that you purchase.

I don't think you are going to find a specific citation for what you are looking for.

But I do think using the rule on potions, scrolls and wands as precedent for any other items where the spell level may be called into question is completely legit. And its the way I'd rule it at any table I was GM'ing.

Silver Crusade 5/5

Tallow wrote:
Michael Clarke wrote:
Quote:
So in the case of continual flame, you assume it is based on the lower spell level, which is 2.

Both you and Wraith have asserted the same thing, but look at the text you quoted - that assumption is explicitly only for potions, scrolls and wands. An Ioun Torch is none of these, and there is no similar rule for other items.

Quote:
In this case, the item or items would be the ioun torch or everburning torch.
That's what I'm trying to clarify. Although the description for both items seems to say they are just continual flame castings, there are a number of details missing, like the caster level and the spell caster. In addition, the Ioun Torch is a magic item that requires Craft Wondrous Item to create - doesn't this actually indicate it is a manufactured item? Or is the feat only required to build the gray ioun stone? I'd like to confirm this. If the Ioun Torch counts as an item, and doesn't count against the limit of continual flame castings, then it has extra use and value. If not, then you are better off paying the few gold extra to have an NPC cast Heightened Continual Flame onto an Ioun Stone that you purchase.

I don't think you are going to find a specific citation for what you are looking for.

But I do think using the rule on potions, scrolls and wands as precedent for any other items where the spell level may be called into question is completely legit. And its the way I'd rule it at any table I was GM'ing.

+1

Shadow Lodge

Yuri Sarreth wrote:

As for the Ioun torch, if you lock up the item description it states it is a dull gray stone with Continual Flame cast on it. It is Caster Level 12 in the item write up.

Given the rules for PFS that spells are cast from the lowest level spell caster able to do so the Ioun Touch would act as a Level 2 spell with Caster Level 12. It can cancel Darkness but not Deeper Darkness, and has a caster level 12 if the target of a Dispel..

EverBurning Torch as for the description given I believe would be Spell level 2, Caster Level 3 from a wizard.

minimum level create an Ioun Stone is CL 12

OGC because its easier to quote wrote:


Aura faint universal; CL 12th

Slot none; Price: 25 gp; Weight —.

DESCRIPTION
These are ioun stones that have been burned out or otherwise rendered all but powerless. They retain the ability to float and orbit, and are useful as the target of spells such as continual flame, daylight, and silence, allowing you to keep your hands free. They may be any shape (cabochon, disk, ellipsoid, and so on).

Cracked: This stone has no powers. Price: 25 gp.

Flawed: This stone has no powers. Price: 25 gp.

See Inferior Ioun Stones for details on cracked and flawed variant stones.

caster level of Continual flame is 3 (Minimum) .. vs Dispel magic you would check vs the CL of the Spell not the Ioun stone... and dispelling the Ioun Stone would only make it stop floating for 1d4 Rounds

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