Can the Butterfly Blade (slayer archetype) use two speed weapons?


Rules Questions


Pathfinder SRD wrote:

Deadly Butterfly: At 19th level, a butterfly blade becomes a bloody whirlwind in combat. When he strikes a foe with a butterfly sword, he automatically confirms critical threats. In addition, any butterfly sword he wields is treated as if it has the speed weapon special ability. If the weapon already has the speed weapon special ability, this doesn’t stack.

This ability replaces improved quarry.

I realize that the text prohibits the use of stacking a speed weapon with this ability (hence the last sentence). However, it makes no mention about restricting the benefit if a character is wielding two butterfly blades for the purpose of two-weapon fighting.

Thoughts?


As far as I know, Speed doesn't stack with itself (or Haste), so while they could Two Weapon Fight, they'd only get the benefit of Speed once.


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Frustratingly, Scythia is correct. Since the ability doesn't specifically say that the abilities stack with each other, only one works at a time. I strongly encourage you to houserule it.

I'm glad to see folks taking an interest in the archetype, though! ^_^


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Isabelle Lee wrote:

Frustratingly, Scythia is correct. Since the ability doesn't specifically say that the abilities stack with each other, only one works at a time. I strongly encourage you to houserule it.

I'm glad to see folks taking an interest in the archetype, though! ^_^

I strongly suggest houseruling in general. :)


Why would you house rule it? I don't see any indication that the intent is to give two free attacks, an unprecedented ability.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Why would you house rule it? I don't see any indication that the intent is to give two free attacks, an unprecedented ability.

This!

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Two speed weapons have never stacked or ever intended to stack.


Quote:
When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

So, it depends what is meant by the last sentence. But I'm pretty sure that's what keeps you from getting an extra attack from each weapon.


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Why would you house rule it? I don't see any indication that the intent is to give two free attacks, an unprecedented ability.

I'm assuming because Isabella wrote the Archetype and the intent was to work that way.


Scythia wrote:
Isabelle Lee wrote:

Frustratingly, Scythia is correct. Since the ability doesn't specifically say that the abilities stack with each other, only one works at a time. I strongly encourage you to houserule it.

I'm glad to see folks taking an interest in the archetype, though! ^_^

I strongly suggest houseruling in general. :)

Even with that accident, this is one of my favorite slayer archetypes.


Talonhawke wrote:
Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Why would you house rule it? I don't see any indication that the intent is to give two free attacks, an unprecedented ability.
I'm assuming because Isabella wrote the Archetype and the intent was to work that way.

I'd guess the developer changed it with intent and a good reason then.


Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
Why would you house rule it? I don't see any indication that the intent is to give two free attacks, an unprecedented ability.
I'm assuming because Isabella wrote the Archetype and the intent was to work that way.
I'd guess the developer changed it with intent and a good reason then.

She didn't make it sound that way. It sounds more like a simple oversight. It's not like allowing the extra attack on both weapons is overpowering. It just takes you from 3 to 4 attacks. Or conversely, it's not like missing the one extra attack is going to ruin the archetype.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

I didn't see it mentioned but we have a FAQ clarifying that other speed weapons are similar to haste.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

If that was the intention, the writer was missing this FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Speed Weapons: Can I get two extra attacks per round if I dual-wield two speed weapons?

No. The benefits of speed are not cumulative with similar effects, and "a second speed weapon" is a similar effect.
posted June 2013 | back to top

It is not something new, it has been around for 4 years.

And honestly, it wasn't difficult to see how it did work even before the FAQ.

PRD wrote:
Speed: When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

You need a lot of imagination to read "is not cumulative with similar effects" as "you can use it with another speed weapon".

Just to be fully clear: "the 3.5 open license text" already had that limitation.

Liberty's Edge

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Diego Rossi wrote:

If that was the intention, the writer was missing this FAQ:

Or the writer made a mistake and forgot to account for that FAQ. Y'know like humans occasionally do.

I suspect, based only on her post above, that Isabella Lee is the author for this archetype and that she intended it to work in a way counter to the FAQ. Given that her professionalism has been high enough that I do not believe that she would contradict the developer, her post suggesting it be house-ruled implies to me that she forgot to account for that FAQ, not that the developer changed what she had written.

All that said there any number of different ways to interpret her post and I could be completely wrong.

And none of this changes the fact that, without an FAQ or errata or house-rules of course, your interpretation of the rules is correct.

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