I have a few questions about the Flytrap, Giant monster.
If I understand correctly, if the flytrap hits 3 different adventurers with its four bite attacks and grapples them all, it then has the option to engulf them on its next turn. However, I'm unsure of whether or not it can (1)engulf multiple grabbed opponents at the same time (2)sustain the grapple on multiple grabbed opponents at the same time (3)continue attacking with its remaining head while it sustains the grapple/engulfs targets.
The rules by themselves seem to indicate that it can actually only grapple one target at a time (due to sustaining limitations) and even if it could grapple multiple targets, could only engulf one at a time... but that doesn't make any sense.
More intuitively, I'd run the flytrap as being able to basically give each of its heads its own standard action (assuming the flytrap doesn't have to move or anything), but I can't find support in the rules.
Thoughts?
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OK the Giant Flytrap is one of those tricky monsters with the Grab special ability. Grab allows a monster to make an attack and if that attack hits start a grapple w/o AoO as a free action.
So Mr. Greenvise here has four mouths that can chomp on your PC's. To do that he has to make a Full attack. Each mouth should NOT get a standard action on its own, it's powerful enough already!
So if Mr. Greenvise attacks the party and hits one or more he does normal damage to them and then rolls his CMB check. Now with Grab the Flytrap can choose to conduct the grapple normally against a single foe or take a -20 penalty and not be considered grappled itself. If it beats a bit creatures CMD then they're grappled.
Now it has a special attack called engulf. This special ability further refines the Plants grab ability. #1 it specifies that it only works on creatures at least two sizes smaller than itself (i.e. < Medium). Grab normally works on creatures one size smaller (unless noted otherwise as in engulf). #2 engulf allows the Flytrap to grapple and pin opponents without penalty, so it doesn't need to take the -20. It merely loses the ability to use that mouth against anyone else.
See what I mean about powerful enough? The Giant Flytrap can grapple up to 4 medium (or smaller) creatures AND engulf them all without penalty!!!
--Vrock Garden
OK the Giant Flytrap is one of those tricky monsters with the Grab special ability. Grab allows a monster to make an attack and if that attack hits start a grapple w/o AoO as a free action.
So Mr. Greenvise here has four mouths that can chomp on your PC's. To do that he has to make a Full attack. Each mouth should NOT get a standard action on its own, it's powerful enough already!
So if Mr. Greenvise attacks the party and hits one or more he does normal damage to them and then rolls his CMB check. Now with Grab the Flytrap can choose to conduct the grapple normally against a single foe or take a -20 penalty and not be considered grappled itself. If it beats a bit creatures CMD then they're grappled.
Now it has a special attack called engulf. This special ability further refines the Plants grab ability. #1 it specifies that it only works on creatures at least two sizes smaller than itself (i.e. < Medium). Grab normally works on creatures one size smaller (unless noted otherwise as in engulf). #2 engulf allows the Flytrap to grapple and pin opponents without penalty, so it doesn't need to take the -20. It merely loses the ability to use that mouth against anyone else.
See what I mean about powerful enough? The Giant Flytrap can grapple up to 4 medium (or smaller) creatures AND engulf them all without penalty!!!
--Vrock Garden
Sorry, I didn't quite explain what I meant. I understand how the initial grab works, and that "Mr. Greenvise" requires a full-round action to make all four of his attacks.
The problem that I'm having is what happens the next round. Suppose on round one Mr. Greenvise loses initiative. The party of four halfling rogues(Sneaky, Stabby, Squishy, and Surly) moves up to flank Mr. Greenvise from 4 directions. Mr. Greenvise responds by full-attacking and grabbing three of them(Surly was missed).
Round 2: The party attacks Mr. Greenvise, but they don't get flanking because three of them can't make opportunity attacks and therefore can't threaten or flank. Their 1d4+2 dagger attacks fail to kill Mr. Greenvise, and it's his turn again. By the rules, Mr. Greenvise "must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold."
The real question I'm having is if he can, as a standard action, sustain the grapple against all of his foes that he has grappled? Or does he have to drop Sneaky and Stabby in order to pin Squishy?
Suppose he can sustain against all three (and therefore pin). What does he do with his fourth head? Surly is over in the corner feeling left out. Since Mr. Greenvise already used his standard action to sustain the grapple, can he not attack Surly?
#2 engulf allows the Flytrap to grapple and pin opponents without penalty, so it doesn't need to take the -20.
I cannot find where this is mentioned...?
EDIT: Nevermind.
"A giant flytrap that is grappling or pinning a foe cannot attack other targets with that bite, but is not otherwise hindered."
That's kind of a round about way of saying it is not treated as grappled, don't ya think?
#2 engulf allows the Flytrap to grapple and pin opponents without penalty, so it doesn't need to take the -20.I cannot find where this is mentioned...?
A giant flytrap that is grappling or pinning a foe cannot attack other targets with that bite, but is not otherwise hindered.
From the PRD: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/flytrap.html#flytrap-giant
#2 engulf allows the Flytrap to grapple and pin opponents without penalty, so it doesn't need to take the -20.I cannot find where this is mentioned...?A giant flytrap that is grappling or pinning a foe cannot attack other targets with that bite, but is not otherwise hindered.
From the PRD: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/flytrap.html#flytrap-giant
Beat you to it by mere seconds. :)
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Hmmm? I don't think that because they can't make AoO's means they don't threaten. You can still make attacks at a -2 penalty while grappled. You certainly threaten the monster grappling you and you don't share the monsters space anymore so if Surly is still in the flanking square you'd certainly get sneak attack damage.
Now as for Mr. Greenvise's round two options, if the three Halfling rogues are still stuck in his mouths then he makes a Combat manuever check against all of them and if successful they are engulfed. You see the Flytrap isn't grappled thanks to his Engulf special ability. He doesn't follow the normal rules of having to blow a standard action to continue the grapple.
After you resolve the Engulfing, he has one more bite attack to take on Surly...
--Vrock Garden
Hmmm? I don't think that because they can't make AoO's means they don't threaten. You can still make attacks at a -2 penalty while grappled. You certainly threaten the monster grappling you and you don't share the monsters space anymore so if Surly is still in the flanking square you'd certainly get sneak attack damage.
Now as for Mr. Greenvise's round two options, if the three Halfling rogues are still stuck in his mouths then he makes a Combat manuever check against all of them and if successful they are engulfed. You see the Flytrap isn't grappled thanks to his Engulf special ability. He doesn't follow the normal rules of having to blow a standard action to continue the grapple.
After you resolve the Engulfing, he has one more bite attack to take on Surly...
--Vrock Garden
I'm not entirely sure where you're getting the ruling for not having to spend Mr. Greenvise's standard action to sustain the grapple. Your ruling makes sense, but I'm having trouble finding support for it in the books. Possibly just an oversight on my part?
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It's part of his Engulf ability, but its kind of an exension of the Grab ability in that its a free action. If he begins his turn with a creature grappled in his mouth (which doesn't hinder him) then he makes the Engulf attempt. The downside is it takes up his bite attack which is it's only means of offense. So if the plant has all four mouths full it would probably run away.
You only spend a standard action to grapple if you are grappling normally and are the grappler (as opposed to the grapplee). The last line of the Engulf ability pretty much states it all. Its an exception to the normal grapple rules and supercedes it.
--Vrock jaw!
It's part of his Engulf ability, but its kind of an exension of the Grab ability in that its a free action. If he begins his turn with a creature grappled in his mouth (which doesn't hinder him) then he makes the Engulf attempt. The downside is it takes up his bite attack which is it's only means of offense. So if the plant has all four mouths full it would probably run away.
You only spend a standard action to grapple if you are grappling normally and are the grappler (as opposed to the grapplee). The last line of the Engulf ability pretty much states it all. Its an exception to the normal grapple rules and supercedes it.
--Vrock jaw!
I can't find any support for this in the rules. Grab doesn't let you sustain a grapple as a free action. It simply lets you attempt a grapple check as a free action when you hit with its associated attack. Consider:
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
The description for Grab (above) indicates in itself that you still have to make checks to maintain the grapple, which still take standard actions.
The line that you say explains everything I find to be very vague:
A giant flytrap that is grappling or pinning a foe cannot attack other targets with that bite, but is not otherwise hindered.
I don't see the line "Is not otherwise hindered" as meaning that the flytrap doesn't need to make grapple checks. I see it as meaning that you avoid:
Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity. A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.
Thoughts?
My thoughts are that the rules for monster grappling are extremely hard to understand and that the designers should clarify how they work (probably with examples). Nobody seems to be sure how any of the rules exceptions for monsters with grab, rake, constrict, snatch, etc. are supposed to work.
Some of them are more obvious than others. The flytrap suffers from two complications that I see. One can be isolated as the same problem that the giant octopus suffers from (how to handle multiple grabs). The other is engulf and how that works.
Oh, I was wrong earlier about the whole not threatening thing with the rogues. Thanks for the correction.
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Some of them are more obvious than others. The flytrap suffers from two complications that I see. One can be isolated as the same problem that the giant octopus suffers from (how to handle multiple grabs). The other is engulf and how that works.
Oh, I was wrong earlier about the whole not threatening thing with the rogues. Thanks for the correction.
The creature's basically making a full attack every round its holding onto multiple foes. It has to use up all the attacks being dedicated to grab, so it has to use the full round action.
The creature's basically making a full attack every round its holding onto multiple foes. It has to use up all the attacks being dedicated to grab, so it has to use the full round action.Some of them are more obvious than others. The flytrap suffers from two complications that I see. One can be isolated as the same problem that the giant octopus suffers from (how to handle multiple grabs). The other is engulf and how that works.
Oh, I was wrong earlier about the whole not threatening thing with the rogues. Thanks for the correction.
The problem is that sustaining a grapple is a "standard action." It's not something that can it can use "in place of an attack action." If it was, then Mr. Greenvise would be able to sustain the grapple on the three held rogues and still get a final attack with his fourth head on the remaining rogue.
Not to say that I'm opposed to that... I just can't find support for it.
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The problem is that sustaining a grapple is a "standard action." It's not something that can it can use "in place of an attack action." If it was, then Mr. Greenvise would be able to sustain the grapple on the three held rogues and still get a final attack with his fourth head on the remaining rogue.
That's exactly what Mr. Greenvise can do!
Continuing a Grapple is a Standard Action IF you are grappling normally. But a creature with Grab that takes the -20 isn't grappling normally and thus breaks the normal rules.
--Figure Four Leg Vrock!
So what rules does he follow at that point?
Creative Director
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So what rules does he follow at that point?
The rules for the grab special attack, found on page 301 of the Bestiary.
When the flytrap or the octopus grabs a foe using only its "grabber" (be that a bite or a tentacle or whatever), it takes a –20 on its CMB check to maintain the grapple but is not itself considered to be grappled. Since it has the grab ability, it can continue to make grapple checks against such foes as a free action, which incidentally frees it up to make any leftover attacks against anyone else who happens to be nearby.
As far as the flytrap's engulf ability, though... once it engulfs a victim, it does its thing to that victim as, essentially, a free action—that's what the last section of the engulf ability says. "A giant flytrap that is grappling or pinning a foe cannot attack other targets with that bite, but it is not otherwise hindered." If it only has one bite attack, it'd simply have to sit and "chew" that victim, but most of these guys have lots of bites to go around.
So what rules does he follow at that point?The rules for the grab special attack, found on page 301 of the Bestiary.
When the flytrap or the octopus grabs a foe using only its "grabber" (be that a bite or a tentacle or whatever), it takes a –20 on its CMB check to maintain the grapple but is not itself considered to be grappled. Since it has the grab ability, it can continue to make grapple checks against such foes as a free action, which incidentally frees it up to make any leftover attacks against anyone else who happens to be nearby.
As far as the flytrap's engulf ability, though... once it engulfs a victim, it does its thing to that victim as, essentially, a free action—that's what the last section of the engulf ability says. "A giant flytrap that is grappling or pinning a foe cannot attack other targets with that bite, but it is not otherwise hindered." If it only has one bite attack, it'd simply have to sit and "chew" that victim, but most of these guys have lots of bites to go around.
Thank you for the reply. I was hoping that was the answer, but I was having trouble getting it from a reading of the rules.
However, I have one last question. Does the flytrap actually have to take the -20 to its CMB check (which lowers its CMB to a mere +2)? The last line, which says that, "A giant flytrap that is grappling or pinning a foe cannot attack other targets with that bite, but it is not otherwise hindered" makes me unsure.
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Creative Director
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However, I have one last question. Does the flytrap actually have to take the -20 to its CMB check (which lowers its CMB to a mere +2)? The last line, which says that, "A giant flytrap that is grappling or pinning a foe cannot attack other targets with that bite, but it is not otherwise hindered" makes me unsure.
If it wants to avoid gaining the grappled condition, which carries with it some pretty big penalties, then yes, it has to take the –20. It probably won't bother unless it's surrounded by multiple foes. It can still attack with its other bites while engulfing or grappling, in any event.
However, I have one last question. Does the flytrap actually have to take the -20 to its CMB check (which lowers its CMB to a mere +2)? The last line, which says that, "A giant flytrap that is grappling or pinning a foe cannot attack other targets with that bite, but it is not otherwise hindered" makes me unsure.If it wants to avoid gaining the grappled condition, which carries with it some pretty big penalties, then yes, it has to take the –20. It probably won't bother unless it's surrounded by multiple foes. It can still attack with its other bites while engulfing or grappling, in any event.
A -20 penalty sure sounds like it is "being hindered" to me. If he avoids the penalty by grappling normally, than he is "hindered" by the grapple. Either way, it doesn't look like the engulf ability has done anything really.
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Creative Director
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A -20 penalty sure sounds like it is "being hindered" to me. If he avoids the penalty by grappling normally, than he is "hindered" by the grapple. Either way, it doesn't look like the engulf ability has done anything really.However, I have one last question. Does the flytrap actually have to take the -20 to its CMB check (which lowers its CMB to a mere +2)? The last line, which says that, "A giant flytrap that is grappling or pinning a foe cannot attack other targets with that bite, but it is not otherwise hindered" makes me unsure.If it wants to avoid gaining the grappled condition, which carries with it some pretty big penalties, then yes, it has to take the –20. It probably won't bother unless it's surrounded by multiple foes. It can still attack with its other bites while engulfing or grappling, in any event.
Normally if you have the grappled condition, you can't "use your hands" to make attacks. While the flytrap doesn't have hands, the idea is that when it's using its engulf, it can continue to fight other foes and take actions normally.
Engulf is, at the root of it all, a variant form of swallow whole, in other words. We don't call it swallow whole, though, because it does a few things differently than swallow whole, like bring with it the danger of suffocation. It's also different from swallow whole in that the bite attack it used to start the action becomes unusable while it's engulfing.
What benefit does the last line of the Engulf ability actually confer? I don't quite get what penalties it avoids because of it. What I'm getting from your comment is that it can still attack other things... but I don't see how they can attack other things if sustaining the grapple is a standard action.
If the flytrap has to take a -20 penalty, it will almost never successfully grapple a character of the proper level for its CR.
What benefit does the last line of the Engulf ability actually confer? I don't quite get what penalties it avoids because of it. What I'm getting from your comment is that it can still attack other things... but I don't see how they can attack other things if sustaining the grapple is a standard action.
If the flytrap has to take a -20 penalty, it will almost never successfully grapple a character of the proper level for its CR.
I concur. I too would like to no what specific penalties/hindrances are avoided.
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Creative Director
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The whole point of the power is (apart from being a variant swallow whole) that it should be able to engulf prey and still keep attacking. Basically; it can sustain its grapples without taking the standard action; engulf lets it use its grab ability each round on foes it's already grappling.
The whole point of the power is (apart from being a variant swallow whole) that it should be able to engulf prey and still keep attacking. Basically; it can sustain its grapples without taking the standard action; engulf lets it use its grab ability each round on foes it's already grappling.
Thank you ^_^
I know this is an old post but it finally came up for my group. Thanks Mr. Jacobs for clearing this up but I got another question about the same monster... The plant grabs and engulfs, then on the next turn succeeds on a -20 check to maintain the grapple. Does it do any actual damage on that second round or do you (the guy in its mouth) just sit there waiting to suffocate? I know in normal grapple you can choose to deal natural weapon damage which would seem to apply but this monster seems to be full of exceptions. Is the acid damage per round or only the intital round you are grabbed by the plant.