What actions can be taken with hand that has a light shield?


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Light shield description in the Core Rulebook on page 152, clearly states:

You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

I know I can't attack with any weapon, including two-handed ones, with out some kind of special ability or feat; while using the hand.

I don't think using the hand to hold a weapon for a short time is a problem. Free action to change weapon from hand to hand. DM can enforce a reasonable limit.

The treads I've read seem to agree you can cast spells with with the hand.

1)But could I hold a Rod of Absorption and gain all the benefits of the Rod and Shield?

2)Can I use Wands?

3)If yes to 2, would I lose the shield AC?

4)If yes to 3, What can I do to keep the Shield AC?

I can see this light shield hand being used for some very powerful combinations.

FYI, I use a light shield instead of a buckler to shield bash with the improved shield bash feat.


As it says carry but not use:
1: yes
2: no
3 and 4:N/A

The Upsetting Shield Style chain lets you bash with a buckler and provides other benefits.


To Gallant Armor,
Why no to wands? They are not weapons after all.
What's the difference between casting spells and using a wand?


Wands

Activation:
Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for non-humanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

It's probably that "pointing" bit, especially if you're using an attack spell.


Magic

Somatic(S):
A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.

If one could perform "measured and precise movement of the hand", one could point with a wand.


To Gallant Armor, Great tip with Upsetting Shield Style.


I would not allow a character to cast spells, or use any item held in that hand while using a Light Shield.
The rules are intended to be read Permissively, and nothing in the description of a Light Shield permits the character to cast spells or use items with that hand (which is explicitly described as being occupied).
The Light shield only permits you to hold items in that hand. So you could hold a potion, but not drink it with that hand.


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I think the Light shield lets you hold, as in a torch or an unready weapon, but not use, as in a quill pen or a wand.

'Hold' as in 'four grocery bags already, but that hand can take a fifth'.

Try spreading peanut butter with a knife while holding a gallon of milk in that same hand, and imagine the havok of trying to use a wand.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The key point would be the timing of the actions. Since a hand that is holding a light shield could hold but not use a one-handed weapon, you can always shift the weapon over to your shield hand, take an action with your free hand, and then shift the weapon back.

But since a buckler offers the exact same protection as a light shield, you are probably better off using that for the flexibility to keep a wand or similar item in hand (in the shield hand) for when you need it.


Vince,
Your hand holding the light shield is not free. The buckler specifically calls out you can use that hand for casting, at a cost of its armor bonus. The light shield does not. The QuickDraw shield exists though, so you can approach that functionality.


Please reference "rules are intended to be read Permissively" for me.

Otherwise, Core Rulebook page 9.

The Most Important Rule:

The rules in this book are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their
thoughts when the rules are in doubt.

This suggest that the rules are subjective, not permissive.

As for casting with light shield, there are dozens of treads on the topic. Boiled down to this:

1) Use free actions to gain free hands, via move weapon or sheath quickdraw shield.

2) You may cast spell, but lose AC like a buckler.


I will most likely invest in a quickdraw shield to avoid most of the my wand problems.

Thank you, Daw.

The Exchange

Make sure you are running the quickdraw shield properly (unless your GM approves of it handled differently. By default Quickdraw Shield only lets you equip or put away the shield as a swift action performed during a move. If you're not moving then you still take a move action to do either.

Unless you also take the quick draw feat, then you're at free actions both ways!


A good reminder Glorf Fei-Hung. Thank you.


If there are rules for being able to cast with a light shield but losing ac I would apply that to wands and similar items. The reason I would say no to that without an official source is that according to the text you are still holding the shield with a hand so it is not completely free to use items, cast spells, etc.

I would say the buckler would be about as feat intensive as the quick draw shield method and the buckler has some additional benefits with Upsetting Shield Style.

Also, from an RP perspective if this is something you are planning on doing frequently it is a little odd to be removing a donning a shield every 6 seconds.


Vince Frost wrote:
Please reference "rules are intended to be read Permissively" for me.

As much as I would love to, I cannot provide a citation. It is one of those "Unwritten Rules", like "Hands of Effort", which nevertheless remains true. Most game systems are written to be read permissively.

However, it is fairly easy to test the principle that Pathfinder's Rules Are Read Permissively. Contemplate the following examples:

Read Permissively:
Bob the 1st Level Human Fighter can begin play with Dodge, Power Attack, and Cleave. Reasoning: The rules explicitly state that 1st level characters get one Feat, that Humans get one Bonus Feat, and that Fighters get one Bonus Combat Feat at 1st level.

Read Prohibitively:
Bob the 1st Level Human Fighter can cast Wish as an at-will Spell-Like Ability. Reasoning: The rules do not explicitly prohibit 1st Level Human Fighters from casting Wish as an at-will Spell-Like Ability.

The first example is obviously correct, and the second example is obviously incorrect. Therefore we can establish that the rules only function properly when read permissively.


Of course... it is also worth noting that the Developers themselves have admitted that the rules were written "conversationally" (I.E. Like a conversation). I'm sure you can find the quote somewhere... but I don't care enough to hunt it down. What that means is that the rules were written in much the same way you would explain them verbally. As a result there is a lot of information they omit because it seemed obvious to them.
For example, there are any number of weapons which don't explicitly state what material they are made from for the purpose of determining what special materials they can be made from... which leads to all sorts of arguments on these forums. You are expected to use common sense, or talk to your GM about it and come to a reasonable consensus (which is fine and dandy if you aren't playing at a PFS table).

It is probably about the stupidest way you could possibly try to write an RPG ruleset, but it is what we're stuck with if we want to play Pathfinder.


It allows you to hold items in that hand but can't make use of it. Clerics can essentially use it to grasp their holy symbol and use their free hand for the rest. Wizards typically aren't using shields.

If you're not gripping it, then by rules its not a readied shield. It's a move action to ready a shield.

It's a free action to swap hands. You can hold a wand, but if you can't use your wand as an improvised weapon with that hand because of rules, I'm certainly not allowing it cast a spell when there may be an attack roll. Maybe i'll let you use wands to cast spells with a target of "you."


While everyone may have an opinion, I am looking for references, citation or any binding/official information. That's why I am on Rule/Question and not on Advice or Discussion. The better answer will be RAW, not opinions.

If one is unwilling or unable to provide references, citation or any binding/official information on interpretations of the rules. Then one may need to rethink their views.

If I have offended anyone with my statements; please note it is not my intention. My intention is to merely to point out any view/opinion is stronger when supported by references, citation or any binding/official information.

We know, without a doubt, That items can be held in the light shield hand. Everything else is conjecture, until references, citation or any binding/official information is revealed.

Please note, I have my solution to my wand/shield. It's quickdraw shield. Other solutions included, change of grips, and buckler. If there are more solutions, feel free to post them. If there are any rules, that allow or prevent using a wand in the light shield hand, please post them.

If anyone does not have any constructive criticism or useful information on this subject, What actions can be taken with hand that has a light shield? , Then please do not post any unsupported views, insulting comments, or personal allowances. If I have posted something one does not like, ignore the post. If I have posted something that goes against the Community Guidelines; inform me or report me.

I wish I could be a fun loving, understanding, and flexible being, but I'm not. I'm am mostly a logical, by the book, kind of person.


If you consider James Jacobs a reliable source, the rules are in your favor:

James Jacobs wrote:
Sammy123 wrote:
Can a paladin do LoH with during combat when holding a sword and light shield?
I believe so. A light shield allows spellcasters to use their hand to cast, and lets you carry an object; the only thing it actually prevents is wielding a weapon. Since lay on hands only requires you to touch someone, you could indeed use this ability while wearing a light shield.


Who is James Jacobs?
Why would this person be a considered reliable source?

Again, not trying to be mean, I simply don't know.

I will Research James Jacobs while waiting for an answer.


There's a feat in Armor Masters' Handbook that allows for casting somatic spells while using a shield; Shielded Mage.


That is a great catch Lord Twitchiopolis.

But not sure how this would applies to wands yet.

It does however gives support that one can not spell cast with a light shield hand.

Bravo. +1


James Jacobs is the creative director for Pathfinder, the feat that Lord Twitchiopolis found seems to contradict what James said and I would trust a published feat much more than a forum post.


As for James Jacobs, creative director of Paizo. If this was a question of Monsters, NPC, or Campaign Setting. I would label him as expert of a high or highest degree.

But for anything else, he would be an experienced person to whom we should listen to, but not taken as law. Simply put, he's smart and creative person, but is still human and can make mistakes.

His Pathfinder works are in Bestiarys, Campaign Settings, and the NPC Guide. Not in Combat, Rules, or Magic.


You are correct, that is why I added that caveat to the quote. His opinion can help to inform a GM when making a table rule if nothing official exists, but as you said it shouldn't be taken as law.


Vince Frost wrote:
What actions can be taken with hand that has a light shield?

RAW, you can "carry other items in that hand" and "You can bash an opponent with a light shield."; that is all. You can't cast spells because you need a free hand to do so (and the light shield doesn't permit you to treat the hand as Free), and you cannot wield weapons with that hand because the light shield explicitly prohibits it. Everything else is as you put it, conjecture.

The rules are written permissively (the fact that the light shield has a clause which permits you to carry items proves that). So you need to find a rule that permits you to use a spell trigger item (i.e. a Wand) in the same hand you are holding a light shield. Not one that prohibits you from doing so.

For example,
The Activation section for wands indicates you merely have to hold the wand, point it at the target, and expend a standard action. Which supports the idea you can use one with a Light Shield because it allows you to hold an item, and a wand is an item.
Further, the Quick Draw feat explicitly prohibits using the feat on wands. "Wand" also does not appear on any of the weapon lists, nor does anything in the rules for wands refer to them being weapons or even weapon-like. All of which support the argument that Wands are not Weapons (despite having some weapon-like applications).


The feat, Shielded Mage, supports the idea that a light shield prevents spells from being cast with that hand.

Wands are Spell Trigger items.

Spell Trigger require no gestures.

The only thing not accounted for is the Wands' need the be pointed it in the general direction of the target or area.


Spell Trigger items don't require Somatic Components as a general rule, but wands specifically do require that you be able to point in the general area of the target (which isn't a somatic component, but might still be prevented by wearing a shield on that arm.

Now, this isn't a game-rule based argument... but:
If I can hold a full cup of coffee with my middle and ring fingers, and use my thumb, index, and pinky fingers to manipulate a pencil to point in any given direction; then I can point a wand the same way without even letting go of my shield...
Honestly it is even easier because shields strap loosely to the forearm and the second strap loops around your palm and the back of your hand, leaving all five digits free to manipulate an object without dropping the shield.

But to be fair, realistically there is actually nothing preventing you from using a long enough weapon in the same hand as a round shield except your own strength and endurance. You just can protect yourself with it as well while doing so.


I think the wands' pointing may have to fall under either "The Most Important Rule" or GM's ruling.

I will keep searching for more solid proof.

FYI, If one wish to get wands in hand quickly, one should buy spring loaded wrist sheaths or vanishing sheath. One sheath per wrist, one wand per sheath, swift actions to activate. Swift actions restrictions still apply.


If you are able to craft and add items to slots at 1.5x cost the monkey belt could help as well as it has a swift action to activate and can "hold or manipulate objects about as well as the wearer’s normal limbs".


LOL

Wand with a monkey tail.

(Group Leader)Watch out! He's armed!
(Follower)But isn't his hands are empty sir?
(Group Leader)He has a wand of fireballs in/on his tail.

Grand Lodge

Shielded Mage lets you cast with a Heavy Shield, so I don't think it really goes one way or the other.

I'd always assumed the Cleric was supposed to have Weapon plus Light Shield and be able to cast.


Still spell is the standard feat for bypassing a somatic component and Arcane spell Falure as it removes the need for a somatic component completely. I would imagine Shielded Mage would be chosen for being a combat feat and not a metamagic feat as it is the lesser of the 2 feats.

Unfortunately neither makes any different when it comes to wands.

Grand Lodge

Well, it doesn't increase spell level like Still Spell. I wouldn't call it the lesser.


Good point. Missed that part.


After much thought and searching I have no specific information on what kind action wielding and pointing a wand is.

But the description of the wand does state that it can be used while grappling or being swallow whole. Both use the grapple rules. In order to point with a wand while in a grapple, it must be a free action, and still a standard action to use the wand spell trigger , activating a wand usually does not provoke attack of opportunity.

If pointing a wand is a free action, then one can most certainly point a wand with a light shield hand.

This is not solid proof, but logical reasoning. Please feel free to point out faults in it. In the long run, the more time we hammer out the details, find examples and situations with Pathfinder materials, the stronger the view is that one can use a wand in a light shield hand.

After all a thing isn't truly strong until it has endured relentless testing and no faults are to be discovered.


Based on my current understanding, references, citation, and all binding/official information provided by everyone. I believe I can now come to some Pathfinder legal and logical conclusions.

1)Could I hold a Rod of Absorption and gain all the benefits of the Rod and Shield?

Yes, a light shield’s state you can carry other items in that hand and a Rod of Absorption must only be held in hand to function.
Please note that some rods may have other conditions to active and no rod may be used as a light mace while in light shield hand.

2)Can I use Wands with a light shield hand?

Yes, a wand is a spell trigger item and spell triggers do not need gestures to function. A wand only needs are to be pointed in the general direction of the target or area and be held in hand.

3)If yes to 2, would I lose the shield AC?

No, Pointing a wand in the general direction of the target or area is a free action. Please note that a GM may place a reasonable limit on free actions.

Question 4 need not be answered.


I would like to thank everyone one for posting on this tread. You have all been helpful.

Special thanks to Cantriped, for without you, I could not have reached any solid conclusions. I hope to meet you on future treads.


I would like to point out something that seem to have been omitted:

You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

So to effectively use it to get AC, it is clear that you need to use that hand to grip the shield by the end of your turn, otherwise, it doesn't make any sense because it comes down to being a buckler, but his heavier.

But it doesn't preclude you from releasing it, cast, use an item, switch grip, etc.

It clearly stated that you cannot use it to use a weapon (so no two-handed switching grip thing).

So, for a paladin who is gripping is shield at beginning of round he could release as free, use lay on hand with the hand, and then regrip to use AC when his turn is over...


Here's a wrench. Can you hold two wands in one hand and use one of them? I think it boils down to one object per hand that's in use.

So while you can hold a wand, your hand isn't free to use it if you also have the shield grip in that same hand.

So, you have to drop your hand from the grip, at which point you would lose the AC, and its a move action to ready a shield.


Since this is a non-obvious subject, it's worth checking the rules for the buckler.

Quote:
Benefit: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an offhand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler’s Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler’s Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can’t make a shield bash with a buckler.

The only significant disadvantage of a buckler compared to a light shield is that you can't use it for shield bashing. The clear advantage is that you can attack with a sword held in your buckler hand.

The buckler specifically calls out that you can cast spells with your buckler hand and adds a rule for it: you lose the your shield's AC bonus for one round. (It says nothing about wands.)

The lack of a similar clause in the light shield description might suggest you're not supposed to be able to cast spells with your light shield arm.


Light shield description in the Core Rulebook on page 152, clearly states:

You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

Can I use Wands with a light shield hand?

Yes, a wand is a spell trigger item and spell triggers do not need gestures to function. A wand only needs are to be pointed in the general direction of the target or area and be held in hand.

Please note that wands are spell trigger items, not weapons and can be held in a light shield hand. Also, one can not quickdraw a wand because it is not a weapon.

A light shield grip does not interfere with a wand in anyway. A light shield grip does not count as holding an item as the description of light shield clearly state you can hold items with while using a light shield. The is no need to release the grip of a light shield to hold a wand.

While everyone may have an opinion, I am looking for references, citation or any binding/official information. That's why I am on Rule/Question and not on Advice or Discussion. The better answer will be RAW, not opinions.

If one is unwilling or unable to provide references, citation or any binding/official information on interpretations of the rules. Then one may need to rethink their views.

Sovereign Court

A light shield does seem to count as occupying a hand - you can't use Slashing Grace with if for example. It's not totally occupied so you can still hold an object, but complex use of an object is probably what you need a buckler for. A buckler occupies your hand so little that you can't even shield bash with it.


Ascalaphus wrote:
A light shield does seem to count as occupying a hand - you can't use Slashing Grace with if for example. It's not totally occupied so you can still hold an object, but complex use of an object is probably what you need a buckler for. A buckler occupies your hand so little that you can't even shield bash with it.

While everyone may have an opinion, I am looking for references, citation or any binding/official information. That's why I am on Rule/Question and not on Advice or Discussion. The better answer will be RAW, not opinions.

If one is unwilling or unable to provide references, citation or any binding/official information on interpretations of the rules. Then one may need to rethink their views.

After saying that. What is there that is complex?
Wands are Spell Trigger items. A Wand only needs are to be pointed in the general direction of the target or area and be held in hand.

Spell Trigger:
Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.


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Vince Frost wrote:


While everyone may have an opinion, I am looking for references, citation or any binding/official information. That's why I am on Rule/Question and not on Advice or Discussion. The better answer will be RAW, not opinions.

If one is unwilling or unable to provide references, citation or any binding/official information on interpretations of the rules. Then one may need to rethink their views.

Or you can accept that no such official rules, citation, or clarification exists, and that no such official rule citation or clarification is likely to be forthcoming, or people wouldn't be defaulting to common sense/ realism/extrapolation into gray areas of the rules. The rules are not so complete that this is avoidable. You shouldn't dismiss the answers of posters as worthless because they're not official enough for you. By all means take them with salt, but take them.


I have dismiss nothing. I have not claim anything to be worthless.

The core rulebook is over 500 pages long and I haven't grasp this one book yet. I do not know if there is no information on the subject of a wand in a light hand shield yet. I know this on the subject:

One can hold items in a light shield hand.

I can not wield a weapon in a light shield hand.
Wands do not count as light, one-handed, or two-handed weapons.

Wands are spell trigger Items.

Wands can not be quickdraw with the quickdraw feat.

To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.

I have mentioned all of these and more in my earlier post on this tread.
I have provided references each time.

I fail to see how slashing grace has anything with wands in a light shield hand.

If you have a problem with me asking for logic, references, citation or any binding/official information on a Rules Question tread. Then ask yourself this:
What is the point of a Rules Question tread if I can't ask for the information I need to make a informed decision or conclusion?


Vince Frost wrote:


What is the point of a Rules Question tread if I can't ask for the information I need to make a informed decision or conclusion?

its not can you ask but HOW you ask, and how you respond to the answer. If there is no rule anywhere that says Z or not Z, then posters saying "x provides a good argument for z" or "y provides a good argument for z" is the best that you're going to get.

Yes. The rules say "x" we think that means "z" is in fact part of the rules discussion. It's not advice, home rules, home brew , shennanigans, or any other label you want to put on it. Its a very large part of rules interpretation, which is why you're getting that answer on the rules forums.

Its a commonly accepted practice to pass the weapon from your main hand to the light shield hand (. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.") and then pass it back at the end of the round. Those SHOULD work like gripping and regripping a weapon (free actions) but i don't have any raw to throw at the dm if they have a problem with it.


That is good information about grips. It has been discussed already.

I do not under the hostility. Answers should be supported by the rules of the game and cited to confirm those rules.

How is asking for this somehow unreasonable?

If there was any part that could be considered offensive would be "If one is unwilling or unable to provide references, citation or any binding/official information on interpretations of the rules. Then one may need to rethink their views".

This was my poor attempt at saying, "I would like some facts and rules to support what you say. If you can not do so, how can you be sure what you say is true?"

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