Blade Barrier and a 10ft corridor


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My DM did something last night that is under review as a possible miss use of the spell.

He cast blade barrier in a 10 by 10ft corridor and said that we the players didn't get a save because it took up the entire length of the corridor, a hallway that was very long, at least 70ft.

Given the length of the effect he definitely used the curtain/wall version of the spell. It nearly killed 2 of us.

So the question is does Blade Barrier in its wall form take up 10ft or 5ft. My argument is that the spell isn't 10ft wide, plus +20ft per caster level in length, but rather that form is 5ft wide and 20ft per caster level long, and that if you use that version of the spell you can't loop it back around to take up another 5ft, effectively making it take up 10 ft wide plus the length, because that negates the entire purpose of it being a wall and the ring version of the spell.

In other words you can't reshape the wall into double lines or boxes.

am i wrong?


The Blade Barrier spell does not indicate it has any real thickness.
If it were cast down a hallway, there should be room on either side to squeeze by if you make your saving throw.


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Yeah, blade barrier has effectively no thickness.

If you make the save you avoid the damage for it being created in your square.

It lack the (S) descriptor in the spell that would make it shapeable under the magic rules. So you definitely can't do that with the spell.


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Effect: wall of whirling blades up to 20 ft. long/level, or a ringed wall of whirling blades with a radius of up to 5 ft. per two levels; either form is 20 ft. high

By default it'd be 20ft wide, and 20ft high, so it would easily block off one square of the corridor entirely, but once you get past it you should be safe.

Since it also says you can create it on top of creatures, gotta assume it takes an entire square. Arguably he could cast it perpendicular to the corridor's direction and cover either left or right side.

With Quick Cast you could cast two and cover the both rows of squares of the corridor (left and right 5ft) for minimum 20ft. Still would get a save though to halve the damage taken.


Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

Effect: wall of whirling blades up to 20 ft. long/level, or a ringed wall of whirling blades with a radius of up to 5 ft. per two levels; either form is 20 ft. high

By default it'd be 20ft wide, and 20ft high, so it would easily block off one square of the corridor entirely, but once you get past it you should be safe.

Since it also says you can create it on top of creatures, gotta assume it takes an entire square. Arguably he could cast it perpendicular to the corridor's direction and cover either left or right side.

With Quick Cast you could cast two and cover the both rows of squares of the corridor (left and right 5ft) for minimum 20ft. Still would get a save though to halve the damage taken.

the last part i agree with, with two casting you could do something like that but i disagree with the 20ft wide thing. As others have said it doesn't really say how wide or thick the spell is, but it does say how high the effect is and how long or how big the radius is given the 2 versions of the spell.

Grand Lodge

It's a wall of whirling blades. You have the ability to duck/jump the blades... you definitely should get a Reflex Save, regardless of the shape thing, right?

Grand Lodge

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Blade Barrier wrote:

BLADE BARRIER

School evocation [force]; Level cleric 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect wall of whirling blades up to 20 ft. long/level, or a ringed wall of whirling blades with a radius of up to 5 ft. per two levels; either form is 20 ft. high
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Reflex half or Reflex negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
An immobile, vertical curtain of whirling blades shaped of pure force springs into existence. Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6), with a Reflex save for half damage.

If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. Each such creature can avoid the wall (ending up on the side of its choice) and thus take no damage by making a successful Reflex save.

A blade barrier provides cover (+4 bonus to AC, +2 bonus on Reflex saves) against attacks made through it.

The spell, like any spell, occupies squares, so your GM should have picked a 5' line of squares (much like casting lighting bolt) that the wall exists in. It's a wall spell except the wall is made of blades instead of stone or fire

One could pose the question about placing the "wall" along the edge of squares, but placing them in a square is pretty clearly an option...

Quote:
If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall.

...while placing them between squares starts making wall spells really confusing to manage, and I think intent was fairly clear.

It's still a wicked spell to throw in a hallway, and two castings would have made it quite uncomfortable to be around there, but you always get a save. It represents you weaving around the spinning blades. Personally, I'd of had you make an additional save for every turn you end in the AoE if there was nowhere dive to. Maybe treat it as rough terrain if my players were particularly powerful so I could provide a challenge appropriate to their ability. However, there is no reason to claim the wall is 10' thick, or impacts more than one line of squares.

tl;dr: y'all shoulda gotten a save and scooted to the 5' side of the hallway that wasn't full of death


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First, a wall spell doesn't fill a 5 ft. square. It gets drawn on the map as a line, usually from a corner of one square to a corner of another square. Alternatively if it's a circle, pick an intersection on the grid and measure distance from this intersection, then draw your circle from the four points equal distance from this centre intersection.

Once the wall is drawn on the board, it either blocks movement (such as a Wall of Force) or causes damage when crossing through it (such as a Blade Barrier) or when on the appropriate side (such as Wall of Fire).

If the hallway is 10 ft. wide, putting the Blade Barrier directly down the centre would let players avoid the spell. Putting it diagonally down the hallway would leave one side free of danger whilst the other side contains a wall of blades, meaning movement through that square would require a save.


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Mako Senako wrote:

My DM did something last night that is under review as a possible miss use of the spell.

am i wrong?

Pathfinder Players handbook Page 402

Quote:


Likewise, don’t feel bound to the predetermined plot of an encounter or the rules as written. Feel free to adjust the results or interpret things creatively

Also from the same page:

Quote:


GM Fiat: The GM is the law of the game. His reading of the rules should be respected and adhered to.

I appreciate what you are trying to do here - but the proper way to work this out is to talk to your GM. No amount of posts here can change how walls work in your game without him being on board. If you are working with him on finding the correct way to run it - fine - but trying to build support as to why he is wrong isn't the way to handle this kind of thing.


Ckorik wrote:
Mako Senako wrote:

My DM did something last night that is under review as a possible miss use of the spell.

am i wrong?

Pathfinder Players handbook Page 402

Quote:


Likewise, don’t feel bound to the predetermined plot of an encounter or the rules as written. Feel free to adjust the results or interpret things creatively

Also from the same page:

Quote:


GM Fiat: The GM is the law of the game. His reading of the rules should be respected and adhered to.

I appreciate what you are trying to do here - but the proper way to work this out is to talk to your GM. No amount of posts here can change how walls work in your game without him being on board. If you are working with him on finding the correct way to run it - fine - but trying to build support as to why he is wrong isn't the way to handle this kind of thing.

That might be fine and good in pathfinder society tables where your playing for some social experiment or whatever makes those games unique, but that's no way to run a good group play table, it takes input from both sides, our DM(s) and players are open minded and as people none of us are infallible, so our DM in this particular game being the good guy that he is is willing to listen if we discover an issue with something that has happened, and we as players are not going to interrupt an entire game to stop and debate rules, hence we do things after the fact and if necessary make changes and resolve issues when next we come back to the table. Yes we recognize the DM has final say when quelling disputes usually between players, but that final say is a double edge sword, last thing a good DM wants is to upset his players or lose them simply because he was unwilling to acknowledge a mistake during the game and rectifying it.


Mako Senako wrote:


That might be fine and good in pathfinder society tables where your playing for some social experiment or whatever makes those games unique, but that's no way to run a good group play table, it takes input from both sides, our DM(s) and players are open minded and as people none of us are infallible, so our DM in this particular game being the good guy that he is is willing to listen if we discover an issue with something that has happened, and we as players are not going to interrupt an entire game to stop and debate rules, hence we do things after the fact and if necessary make changes and resolve issues when next we come back to the table. Yes we recognize the DM has final say when quelling disputes usually between players, but that final say is a double edge sword, last thing a good DM wants is to upset his players or lose them simply because he was unwilling to acknowledge a mistake during the game and rectifying it.

I can appreciate that - I'm actually ok with the GM changing things as long as it's consistent - and it works for the players the same way it works for the npc's. Your first post came off a bit like you were looking to got'cha the GM - that never ends well.

Blade barrier doesn't give a width of the wall - it does say "An immobile, vertical curtain". The spell also doesn't stipulate that the wall needs anchors or that it must be in a straight line, only that it is 20 feet per level.

All that I'm thinking to block a 10 foot wide hall - 10 feet - 5 feet down the hall - 10 more feet across - 5 feet down the hall - etc.

Every 5 foot of hallway can be blocked by using 25 foot of wall (on both sides of the square) - 70 foot of hallway would require a caster level of 18 to block in this way. If they only blocked every 10 foot of corridor (10 foot across 10 foot down) they could block the hallway with a caster level of 7.

How many saves did you have to make?


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A wall must be in a straight line or circular if the rules allow it. Other shapes, including having it zig-zag across the hall back and forth, aren't rules legal unless the spell is shapeable.


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JDLPF wrote:
A wall must be in a straight line or circular if the rules allow it. Other shapes, including having it zig-zag across the hall back and forth, aren't rules legal unless the spell is shapeable.

Citation?

I'm not finding that rule (that a wall must be a straight line) anywhere I look.

On the flip side people have made wall of ice/stone/iron horizontal for decades. I'm not seeing anything that couldn't make the blade barrier 'wall' vertical - did anyone try to duck? A horizontal blade barrier would fill the entire hallway.


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Ckorik wrote:
JDLPF wrote:
A wall must be in a straight line or circular if the rules allow it. Other shapes, including having it zig-zag across the hall back and forth, aren't rules legal unless the spell is shapeable.

Citation?

I'm not finding that rule (that a wall must be a straight line) anywhere I look.

On the flip side people have made wall of ice/stone/iron horizontal for decades. I'm not seeing anything that couldn't make the blade barrier 'wall' vertical - did anyone try to duck? A horizontal blade barrier would fill the entire hallway.

This:

Quote:
(S) Shapeable: If an area or effect entry ends with "(S)," you can shape the spell. A shaped effect or area can have no dimension smaller than 10 feet. Many effects or areas are given as cubes to make it easy to model irregular shapes. Three-dimensional volumes are most often needed to define aerial or underwater effects and areas.

The wall spells can be made horizontal or vertical, as the spell only cares about the total area. It gives no limitations on orientation.

Blade barrier, on the other hand, specifies the barrier is 20 feet tall and is vertical. You can't make it a horizontal plane of blades.

Quote:
An immobile, vertical curtain of whirling blades shaped of pure force springs into existence. Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6), with a Reflex save for half damage.


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JDLPF,
A line is 5ft wide. Look at the diagrams in the magic section for reference. Picking a corner is picking the 5x5 square it originates from. You'll notice in the diagrams the corners and line are slight bold.

You've been doing "lines" wrong, buddy. It's not as thin as a gridline.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

If he wanted to fill the hallway, he could have cast it as a circle.

A 5-ft radius circle is a 10-ft diameter circle. In other words, a circle 10 feet wide, cast in a 10 foot wide corridor. Even as a 2nd level caster, it would fill the hall.

Sovereign Court

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Koi, the effect of Blade Barrier is "wall" not "line."

Walls, (such as wall of stone) are inches thick at most. They do not take up a full square's width, they exist on the gridlines.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Wall of Fire says it is a "sheet"

CoreRuleBook wrote:

opaque sheet of flame up to 20 ft. long/level or a ring of fire with a radius of up to 5 ft./two levels; either form 20 ft. high

....
An immobile, blazing curtain of shimmering violet fire

Sovereign Court

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The examples I looked at, wall of force and wall of flame were described as a plane and a sheet, respectively. Neither implies any meaningful thickness.

Grand Lodge

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KingOfAnything wrote:

Koi, the effect of Blade Barrier is "wall" not "line."

Walls, (such as wall of stone) are inches thick at most. They do not take up a full square's width, they exist on the gridlines.

So, unless you can point out where it says it exists on lines of the grid, you're making an assumption, though it's not an uncommon perception. However, having it occupy squares as an area IS covered in the rules of the spells. Like every other spell that has an effect area.

I'd really like someone to post an actual reference here for this walls = on the lines of grids, because I've never heard where that comes from.


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Diagram from Core Rule Book showing "lines" (scroll about halfway down the page)

From that same page:
When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
...
A line-shaped spell shoots away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect. A line-shaped spell affects all creatures in squares through which the line passes.

From the Wall of Fire spell
An immobile, blazing curtain of shimmering violet fire springs into existence. One side of the wall, selected by you, sends forth waves of heat, ,

in which you choose which side of the 'wall' the damage is dealt from.


Jeraa wrote:
Ckorik wrote:
JDLPF wrote:
A wall must be in a straight line or circular if the rules allow it. Other shapes, including having it zig-zag across the hall back and forth, aren't rules legal unless the spell is shapeable.

Citation?

I'm not finding that rule (that a wall must be a straight line) anywhere I look.

On the flip side people have made wall of ice/stone/iron horizontal for decades. I'm not seeing anything that couldn't make the blade barrier 'wall' vertical - did anyone try to duck? A horizontal blade barrier would fill the entire hallway.

This:

Quote:
(S) Shapeable: If an area or effect entry ends with "(S)," you can shape the spell. A shaped effect or area can have no dimension smaller than 10 feet. Many effects or areas are given as cubes to make it easy to model irregular shapes. Three-dimensional volumes are most often needed to define aerial or underwater effects and areas.

The wall spells can be made horizontal or vertical, as the spell only cares about the total area. It gives no limitations on orientation.

Blade barrier, on the other hand, specifies the barrier is 20 feet tall and is vertical. You can't make it a horizontal plane of blades.

Quote:
An immobile, vertical curtain of whirling blades shaped of pure force springs into existence. Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6), with a Reflex save for half damage.

But the effect of blade barrier is custom and so none of that section applies...

Quote:
Other: A spell can have a unique area, as defined in its description.

Wall of Force says the same thing.

Quote:
The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10-foot square per level

Yet I'll say again - using it as a flat wall to summon big heavy things on and dismiss the wall (for example) have been done for decades.

Question...

A kineticist alters gravity in the hallway so it's on the wall and then the blade barrier is cast - then the gravity returns to normal.

Does the wall move?


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Ckorik wrote:
Yet I'll say again - using it as a flat wall to summon big heavy things on and dismiss the wall (for example) have been done for decades.

So you're saying that An immobile, vertical curtain of whirling blades is exactly the same thing as An immobile curtain of whirling blades?

That the word 'vertical' is meaningless and you can ignore it?


Intersecting guidelines to determine area of effect. It's not pencil thin. Look at the corresponding diagrams.

area wrote:

Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.

Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.

You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell's area, anything within that square is within the spell's area. If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.

line of effect wrote:
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.

This passage exists because a line is actually represented in a 5ft square.


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science wrote:
Lightning's heat exceeds 50,000 degrees F. or three times hotter than the surface of the sun. Its' speed is 90,000 miles per second (one hundred million feet per second). The average thickness of a bolt is 1-2 inches.

I know its a fantasy game, but if your 1 inch thick lines exist on guidelines, then I'm not rolling reflex saves anymore.


Mako Senako wrote:
Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

Effect: wall of whirling blades up to 20 ft. long/level, or a ringed wall of whirling blades with a radius of up to 5 ft. per two levels; either form is 20 ft. high

By default it'd be 20ft wide, and 20ft high, so it would easily block off one square of the corridor entirely, but once you get past it you should be safe.

Since it also says you can create it on top of creatures, gotta assume it takes an entire square. Arguably he could cast it perpendicular to the corridor's direction and cover either left or right side.

With Quick Cast you could cast two and cover the both rows of squares of the corridor (left and right 5ft) for minimum 20ft. Still would get a save though to halve the damage taken.

the last part i agree with, with two casting you could do something like that but i disagree with the 20ft wide thing. As others have said it doesn't really say how wide or thick the spell is, but it does say how high the effect is and how long or how big the radius is given the 2 versions of the spell.

The spell can be cast on the squares you occupy as it says in it's description, unless it's some new mechanic I never heard of where you take damage from spells you're adjacent to. Do I take Fireball damage since it's on the "line" to my square like you feel Blade Barrier should be?

With other wall effects it might have been different, but specifics always trump, and specifics here is that it fills a square and damages anyone in it or passing through, not anyone near the "grid line"

I think the case is that you might be taking the word "wall" too literal here, it's a mass of magic blades whirling around in a square, not a 2D plane an inch thick.


Koi Eokei wrote:

JDLPF,

A line is 5ft wide. Look at the diagrams in the magic section for reference. Picking a corner is picking the 5x5 square it originates from. You'll notice in the diagrams the corners and line are slight bold.

You've been doing "lines" wrong, buddy. It's not as thin as a gridline.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't too clear with my wording. I was saying you draw a line on the grid between two intersections, not that you use the line rules for a spell.

Wall spells aren't line spells like a Lightning Bolt. They don't need to start at a corner of your square, for example. Others have quoted the rules for how you target the wall spells above, so I won't bother repeating them.

You could cast a wall spell, like Wall of Fire or Blade Barrier, to occupy a 5 ft. square by selecting the close corner of the starting intersection and the far corner of the end intersection, effectively going diagonally across all the intervening squares and therefore subjecting the creatures in those squares to its effect.

Alternatively, you could simply create a wall such as Wall of Force across a grid line. For example, suppose you were a wizard adjacent to a red dragon. You really don't like this, so you cast Wall of Force defensively, then draw your wall across the grid between you and the dragon, separating you by an immobile invisible wall of pure force. You don't need a 5 ft. gap between you and the dragon to do this. In fact, the spell automatically fails if you try to create it through a creature's square.


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Ckorik wrote:
Yet I'll say again - using it as a flat wall to summon big heavy things on and dismiss the wall (for example) have been done for decades.

Sorry mate, vertical means no flat surface to summon things onto. Check Wall of Stone for example.

Unlike a wall of iron, you can create a wall of stone in almost any shape you desire. The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone. It can be used to bridge a chasm, for instance, or as a ramp. For this use, if the span is more than 20 feet, the wall must be arched and buttressed. This requirement reduces the spell's area by half. The wall can be crudely shaped to allow crenellations, battlements, and so forth by likewise reducing the area.

This one and Wall of Ice are about the only solid surface summoning spells you've got that can create a horizontal surface, and it's restricted to being attached to existing stone or another surface respectively. Wall of Force can't be created horizontally, only vertically, so no summoning a whale onto a Wall of Force mid-air and then dismissing the wall and dropping it on your enemies sadly.


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I'd say your GM abused the spell in that scenario by allowing it to bend and turn. In case the baddie did actually cast two separate BB's (one on each square), then it'd clearly be a PK passageway, but at least legit.

Talk with him, if he considers he's right, start abusing similar spells and he'll soon reconsider once his game quickly derails because of the vast amount of power he granted to many eligible wall spells.

Mako Senako wrote:
So the question is does Blade Barrier in its wall form take up 10ft or 5ft

If a BB it's placed in a square it's expected to affect the entire square it's in, will not extend to adjacent squares.

Mako Senako wrote:
In other words you can't reshape the wall into double lines or boxes.

Per RAW, the spell only states is a vertical curtain or a ring, nothing says it can or can't be bent or turn although it is EXPECTED to be placed in a straight line.

In fact, a BB allowed to bend and turn would become an exceptionally damaging spell, also in open areas... just think of the Snake game with something in the middle. Maybe your cleric would be interested in this idea...

Mako Senako wrote:
He cast blade barrier in a 10 by 10ft corridor and said that we the players didn't get a save because it took up the entire length of the corridor

In that scenario, I'd say he's actually right because of the following sentence.

Quote:
If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. Each such creature can avoid the wall (ending up on the side of its choice) and thus take no damage by making a successful Reflex save.

Your GM placed the wall in the middle of a square and actually bent the wall so it also occupied all available "safe" squares. In that scenario there's no safe square to jump since every square a character can move would be threatened by the BB.

It would also force creatures to roll ST's the next rounds for each square they navigate, since all would have a blade barrier (So a creature would always be considered as "crossing" a square)

KingOfAnything wrote:

Koi, the effect of Blade Barrier is "wall" not "line."

Walls, (such as wall of stone) are inches thick at most. They do not take up a full square's width, they exist on the gridlines.

The Blade Barrier targeting descriptor is EFFECT. You can perfectly place effect spells in the middle of a square if you want (in fact, in many cases you actually have to). Grid intersections and PoO are mainly required for spells with AREA targeting descriptors.

You can also place walls (not just "wall spells", but any wall) anywhere you please. The fact that you normally will place walls on grid intersections or grid lines for easines of use inside of tactical combat doesn't mean you are forced to always place them there.


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So what im getting from some of you is that you can draw it down the middle of a line between the 2 5ft squares, and it basically affects everyone on either side, (really making it effectively 10ft across) with the stipulation that medium sized people and smaller have to now squeeze in the squares they are standing in despite it not actually running through their squares.

Wall of fire is one thing because it produces heat on one side that spreads out across 10ft to 20ft so it makes sense that people on the wrong side of it can be burned when it comes to the wall version of the spell, but Blade Barrier doesn't have such a stipulation, it doesn't give a effective area unless people are passing through the wall, you're not passing through a wall if it's just running alongside you, so it makes way more sense to draw the line through creatures effective squares,

"If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. Each such creature can avoid the wall (ending up on the side of its choice) and thus take no damage by making a successful Reflex save."

How can i effectively choose to be on either side of the wall if its not even in my square? How am I suppose to chose to be on the left or right side when it's just running along the side of my square? Do i instantly get to move 5ft to the opposite square i was now standing in? isn't it still running alongside me if its just drawn on a grid line do i now make infinite checks every second and play hop scotch until my next turn when i can move, all the time making reflex saves?

Also people keep overlooking the real issue, do we get a reflex save or not? The short answer from what some of the earlier poster said is yes you do, so in that sense it was a mistake to say we got no save because we can't move anyway where, when the spell itself doesn't say it takes up the entire 10ft square throughout the hallway.


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Mako Senako wrote:
So what im getting from some of you is that you can draw it down the middle of a line between the 2 5ft squares, and it basically affects everyone on either side, (really making it effectively 10ft across) with the stipulation that medium sized people and smaller have to now squeeze in the squares they are standing in despite it not actually running through their squares.

Yes and no.

Example Hallway

Let's start with your scenario. A spellcaster puts the Blade Barrier straight down the centre.

Example One

Example One is where you draw a line straight down the middle. If you were to put a Blade Barrier in a straight line along the grid line down the exact centre of a 10 ft. wide hallway, nobody needs to make a reflex save when it's cast because it isn't passing through their square. However, it's blocking their movement to the other side of the hallway. If they moved across the line from column d to column e in Example One, they'd need to roll their reflex save as they crossed the wall's effect.

Example Two

Example Two is where you fill a column with blades. Instead of drawing the wall down the grid line, you could draw the line from one corner of the column d to the opposite, and it therefore passes through all the squares in column d. In that case all creatures in column d roll their saves. Whether they succeed or fail, they're still in the same square afterwards, but success means you avoid damage and you can choose which side of the Blade Barrier you're standing on your turn (hint: it's probably a good idea to choose the side facing column e). If you fail, you're standing in the blade barrier, not on any one side. Success doesn't mean you move the square you're standing in, any more than success on a Fireball means you get a free move action.

Example Three

In Example Three, the caster has put the Blade Barrier all the way across the hallway. Anyone in column d, rows 1 to 4, need to roll a reflex save. Anyone in column e, rows 5 to 8, need to roll a reflex save. Anyone moving from d5 to e4 needs to roll a reflex save too. The other squares are safe, so long as you don't enter a square containing the blade barrier or cross through its line.


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An effect that has no width as part of its description, has no width. Strange though that may sound, it makes no difference, geometrically, or spatially. A plane without width can still intersect a three-dimensional space, or body in case of a creature. But really, no width? Why not, it's magic!

With Blade Barrier, the only thing that's unclear is whether or not you're restricted to drawing it along a straight line. If that is the case, and I haven't seen it played differently (except of course for the circular option), casting it along a 10' wide corridor will only have it go through one of every 2 squares that are adjacent perpendicularly to the lenght of the hallway. So, there would be plenty of safe spaces in that hallway, 50% of its 5' squares, in face.


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JDLPF is correct.

But you will notice that in all those scenarios you get a reflex save to avoid damage, and after the initial casting you aren't forced into a position where you will take damage. Only if you want to move through the wall will you take damage, which is inconvenient, but not a death sentence.


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Yep, Blade Barrier is a 'mildly inconvenient area of avoidable damage' rather than a 'murderous wood-chipper of unavoidable death' spell.


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CrystalSeas wrote:
Ckorik wrote:
Yet I'll say again - using it as a flat wall to summon big heavy things on and dismiss the wall (for example) have been done for decades.

So you're saying that An immobile, vertical curtain of whirling blades is exactly the same thing as An immobile curtain of whirling blades?

That the word 'vertical' is meaningless and you can ignore it?

No - was talking about wall of force - I do think the wall isn't shape-able, however there is no 'wall' definition in the magic section. This is an effect (and as such doesn't have to start at a grid intersection as claimed) and could fill a 5 foot section of the hallway making it impassible.

Wall of force however has been used (in countless ways) horizontally - heck using it as a bridge is almost a trope. The question to me is the vertical line just giving a framing dimension (x feet per level x 20 feet) or is it meant to be restrictive, and how that reacts in a game where 'vertical' can change based on the rules.

*edit* Fill here means that it is in the center of the 5 foot square - I assume someone could take the squeeze penalty and be against the wall on one side - but anyone trying to cross the square would take the damage.


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While wall of force is often used as a bridge, doing so is incorrect. Wall means wall, as in a vertical object. Wall of force cannot actually be made horizontally by the rules.


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Claxon wrote:
While wall of force is often used as a bridge, doing so is incorrect. Wall means wall, as in a vertical object. Wall of force cannot actually be made horizontally by the rules.

Actually, disagree here... while the WoF's description states it must be a vertical plane...

Quote:
The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10-foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.

...There's no minimum height requirement, and nowhere is stated that height must be the highest value of the wall. Since WoF must be a vertical plane you cannot flip height so it rests horizontally, but as long as you can declare a legit height value (commonly 1ft since you're working with square areas) you're good to go and can spend most of your area on width and length.

*edit* alfways effing thinking in meters.


That some interesting mental gymnastics to avoid admitting that you're making the wall horizontally instead of vertically and I don't buy it one bit.


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Yorien wrote:


Quote:
The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10-foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.
...There's no minimum height requirement, and nowhere is stated that height must be the highest value of the wall. Since WoF must be a vertical plane you cannot flip height so it rests horizontally, but as long as you can declare a legit height value (commonly 1ft since you're working with square areas) you're good to go and can spend most of your area on width and length.

Except planes are two-dimensional. One of the dimensions (height, width, length) needs to be zero.

The plane is vertical, so it can't be oblique. Furthermore, the height dimension needs to be non-zero, for the same reason. So the upper surface of this "vertical wall" must be a line, and you're not going to be able to use it as a bridge unless you are the most awesome tightrope walker in the multiverse.

Or as Claxon put it, "I don't buy it one bit."


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Think of a graph, |-5|-4|-3|-2|-1|0|1|2|3|4|5. Yes, you cast the spell starting on an intersection touching your square, if it's a wall (I don't care if it's 1 foot thick or half an inch) NOTHING EXISTS ON THE ZERO AXIS.

Imagine your property line, you want to build a wall and not ask your neighbor's involvement, so you build it on your side of the property line.

If its a 2 inch thick wall, it's either on this side of ZERO or that side. If it's on this side, and goes through your square, then you're effected.

IT CAN'T BE ON BOTH SIDES.

A 10 foot wide hallway, assuming the caster is size medium, that blade barrier has to be on the same side of the hallway and him (if the OP was accurate and said it was the "wall" version).

The reason wall of fire says hot side/cold side is because it's on one side of the axis. the cold side is the cold side because it's not in any of those squares.

The rules are clear about area of effect. Doesn't have to be 5 feet wide area of effect, is determining which 5x5 squares are effected.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I really hope this encourages Paizo to finally make a FAQ as to whether wall-based spells run along intersection lines or down middle of squares as line spells. That would help this back-and-forth discussion on this thread.


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ckdragons wrote:

I really hope this encourages Paizo to finally make a FAQ as to whether wall-based spells run along intersection lines or down middle of squares as line spells. That would help this back-and-forth discussion on this thread.

Since no one has phrased a comprehendible FAQ question and no on has clicked the FAQ button for anything in this thread that doesn't seem very likely.


Yorien wrote:

Actually, disagree here... while the WoF's description states it must be a vertical plane...

Quote:
The caster can form the wall into a flat, vertical plane whose area is up to one 10-foot square per level. The wall must be continuous and unbroken when formed. If its surface is broken by any object or creature, the spell fails.

...There's no minimum height requirement, and nowhere is stated that height must be the highest value of the wall. Since WoF must be a vertical plane you cannot flip height so it rests horizontally, but as long as you can declare a legit height value (commonly 1ft since you're working with square areas) you're good to go and can spend most of your area on width and length.

*edit* alfways effing thinking in meters.

Nice hair-splitting, but sorry, no dice.

The spell creates a square, not a cube. The wall only has height and length, no width. It'd take a DC 20+ Acrobatics check to even attempt to stand on top of the wall. No DM is gonna let that count as "an open location on a surface capable of supporting" a summoned creature.

Of course, that's not saying I wouldn't let players use a Wall of Force to bridge a gap. If they wanted to try their luck with Acrobatics across the top, I'd be happy to go for it. By the time they're capable of casting this spell, most players should have access to some form of temporary or permanent flight anyhow.

Grand Lodge

CrystalSeas wrote:

Diagram from Core Rule Book showing "lines" (scroll about halfway down the page)

From that same page:
When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
...
A line-shaped spell shoots away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect. A line-shaped spell affects all creatures in squares through which the line passes.

From the Wall of Fire spell
An immobile, blazing curtain of shimmering violet fire springs into existence. One side of the wall, selected by you, sends forth waves of heat, ,

in which you choose which side of the 'wall' the damage is dealt from.

Well damn. I never looked at that section that way, but rather as an explanation as to how to measure burst effects, rather than in the context of measuring all spells. That offers another way of looking at the intersecting rules... large creatures or diagonals. Aight, I'm convinced.


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Divvox2 wrote:
Well damn. I never looked at that section that way, but rather as an explanation as to how to measure burst effects, rather than in the context of measuring all spells. That offers another way of looking at the intersecting rules... large creatures or diagonals. Aight, I'm convinced.

That sentence does not apply to a Blade Barrier. It only affects Area targeting spells.

Blade barrier has Effect targeting and does not have the spread subtype, so it doesn't mind about grid intersections unless you actually want to place a wall at one (and lose the initial damage it deals unless you catch a L+ sized creature in the middle).

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Koi Eokei wrote:

JDLPF,

A line is 5ft wide. Look at the diagrams in the magic section for reference. Picking a corner is picking the 5x5 square it originates from. You'll notice in the diagrams the corners and line are slight bold.

You've been doing "lines" wrong, buddy. It's not as thin as a gridline.

A Wall isn't a Line.

Read the spell below and note how it lack an "{b]Area[/b]" in the description. It has an Effect. An effect that don't define any thickness.

PRD wrote:

Blade Barrier

School evocation [force]; Level cleric 6

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)

Effect wall of whirling blades up to 20 ft. long/level, or a ringed wall of whirling blades with a radius of up to 5 ft. per two levels; either form is 20 ft. high

Duration 1 min./level (D)

Saving Throw Reflex half or Reflex negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes

An immobile, vertical curtain of whirling blades shaped of pure force springs into existence. Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6), with a Reflex save for half damage.

If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. Each such creature can avoid the wall (ending up on the side of its choice) and thus take no damage by making a successful Reflex save.

A blade barrier provides cover (+4 bonus to AC, +2 bonus on Reflex saves) against attacks made through it.

Note that "It can't be saved because it fill the whole area" fall in the same rule fallacy as "you can't make a reflex save because you are paralyzed".

FAQ wrote:

Reflex Saves: If I’m paralyzed, held, dying, or otherwise completely immobilized or insensate, can I still attempt a Reflex save?

Yes, you can still attempt a Reflex save, but since your Dexterity is set to 0, you’ll have to replace your Dexterity bonus with a –5 penalty, so you’re not likely to succeed. If you do succeed, it might be due to the power of your cloak of resistance, a good angle for cover, or even luck. Either way, follow the rules of the spell for a successful Reflex save, even if this would change your space, like create pit. However, you lose evasion in these circumstances. If you are under the influence of a rare effect that causes you to be immobilized or insensate and allows ongoing Reflex saves to escape the effect, as an exception to the rule, you can use your full Dexterity bonus (instead of a –5 penalty) for the purpose of attempting those ongoing saves only, since your full Dexterity is at work within the confines of the spell, trying to break free.
posted Oct 21, 2016 | back to top

From that FAQ I think it is clear that the PDT don't agree with the idea that a save can be denied (unless a specific the rule explicitly say that).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Yorien wrote:
It would also force creatures to roll ST's the next rounds for each square they navigate, since all would have a blade barrier (So a creature would always be considered as "crossing" a square)

You roll only once for the whole spell. Unless a spell expressly call for saving for every square you pass, the save and the damage happens only once/round.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
You roll only once for the whole spell. Unless a spell expressly call for saving for every square you pass, the save and the damage happens only once/round.

Don't you have to save each time you cross (say, if the barrier is a ring that blocks the whole corridor)?


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Diego Rossi wrote:
Yorien wrote:
It would also force creatures to roll ST's the next rounds for each square they navigate, since all would have a blade barrier (So a creature would always be considered as "crossing" a square)
You roll only once for the whole spell. Unless a spell expressly call for saving for every square you pass, the save and the damage happens only once/round.
Quote:
Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6)

You roll once every time you pass through the wall, not just once per round.

If you're in the left side of the barrier and chose to cross to the right side you roll. If later this same round you change your mind and chose to cross it again to end on the side you started, you roll again. If in a single round you chose to run at x4 or x5 movement and zig-zag through the barrier to prove how macho your character is, you get chopped down everytime you cross it, not just once. Toll is paid every time you cross, there's no frequent flyer discount.

Same would happen if you zig-zag forward or backwards while staying inside the barrier line, for every square you move you're passing through a square the barrier is in.

You'd roll just once per round if you stand in the barrier and chose to take a picnic in that square, though.


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I'm still curious about the grid line thing. If it's a wall along the grid lines, then how do you summon it on top of someone?

Blade Barrier wrote:
If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. Each such creature can avoid the wall (ending up on the side of its choice) and thus take no damage by making a successful Reflex save.

So it either fills a square like and affects those inside, or it starts in a square and magically skips half a square onto a grid line, or it starts on a grid line and affects all squares it touches?

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