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I'm still curious about the grid line thing. If it's a wall along the grid lines, then how do you summon it on top of someone?
If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. Each such creature can avoid the wall (ending up on the side of its choice) and thus take no damage by making a successful Reflex save.So it either fills a square like and affects those inside, or it starts in a square and magically skips half a square onto a grid line, or it starts on a grid line and affects all squares it touches?
Creatures larger than Medium sized. Or a diagonal line (basically, you pick two intersections and draw a straight line between them).
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It would also force creatures to roll ST's the next rounds for each square they navigate, since all would have a blade barrier (So a creature would always be considered as "crossing" a square)You roll only once for the whole spell. Unless a spell expressly call for saving for every square you pass, the save and the damage happens only once/round.Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6)You roll once every time you pass through the wall, not just once per round.
If you're in the left side of the barrier and chose to cross to the right side you roll. If later this same round you change your mind and chose to cross it again to end on the side you started, you roll again. If in a single round you chose to run at x4 or x5 movement and zig-zag through the barrier to prove how macho your character is, you get chopped down everytime you cross it, not just once. Toll is paid every time you cross, there's no frequent flyer discount.
Same would happen if you zig-zag forward or backwards while staying inside the barrier line, for every square you move you're passing through a square the barrier is in.
You'd roll just once per round if you stand in the barrier and chose to take a picnic in that square, though.
Half true. If you pas back and fort between the different sides, you sre right. If you run along the wall for its whole length you pas it once, and it require a single roll for damage.
BTW, a character with evasion can negate all damage with a successful reflex save.
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The OP stated that his General Manager put the wall straight down the gridline of a 10x hallway and said it affected everyone on both sides.
Everything takes up some amount of space. Nothing exists on the gridlines, so the wall would have to be on one side or the other.
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Nice find, Side.
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I'm going to throw another piece of info into the fray on horizontal walls of force. From the CRB,
Transparent floors, made of reinforced glass or magic materials (even a wall of force). allow a dangerous setting to be viewed safely from above. Transparent floors are sometimes placed over lava pools, arenas, monster dens, and torture chambers. They can be used by defenders to watch key areas for intruders.Resume debate at your leisure.
Count as an enchanted structure. Those don't follow the same rules as casting spells.
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The OP stated that his General Manager put the wall straight down the gridline of a 10x hallway and said it affected everyone on both sides.
Everything takes up some amount of space. Nothing exists on the gridlines, so the wall would have to be on one side or the other.
Where you have found this "information" that nothing exist on the gridlines?
You know, doors exist and they aren't 5' thick.
Don't confuse the artist design of a dungeon and the rules about magic effects.
The OP stated that his General Manager put the wall straight down the gridline of a 10x hallway and said it affected everyone on both sides.
Everything takes up some amount of space. Nothing exists on the gridlines, so the wall would have to be on one side or the other.
A Blade Barrier doesn't take up any space at all, because it lacks width.
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Find the word "gridline" in any book 3.X or PF. If it is on a gridline, its not in my square, so no save. If it takes up no space, it couldn't possibly be in my square, no save.
It is a spell. It uses area of effect to determine which squares it effects. Intersection to intersection to determine which squares their in. Look at the diagram for clarification if you have to. In the 17 years I've been playing, never even had to argue about this.
Read all of my previous posts.
Or post a coherent question for FAQ.
Sure, it affects all the squares it intersects, but cast along a gridline, it doesn't intersect any squares. If it's on the gridlines, it doesn't extend into any square at all because it has no width. It might intersect a creature occupying squares on either side of the spell effect of course.
Something can be somewhere without taking up any space. The center point of a sphere, for example, is inside a sphere, but lacking any height, width, or depth, the point doesn't take up any space.
There is no way in all of RAW that that spell occupies a gridline and effects creatures on either side.
If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are (in my square), each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall.
Each such creature can avoid the wall (ending up on the side of its choice) (still in my square, but for purposes of further movement, declare a favorable side) and thus take no damage by making a successful Reflex save.
Flaming sphere comes to mind. Reflex save to avoid but it's still in my square til I move.
Any further arguments!?
Area of effect isn't about the width of the wall, its about what squares it effects. Doesn't need a width to effect a space. I've already made my point with my lightning bolt description in a previous post. And my graph description in another post.
Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell's area, anything within that square is within the spell's area. If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.
Look at the diagrams for reference if you need to imagine what near side means in correlation.
If the spell affects an area, then the spell stays with that area for its duration.Creatures become subject to the spell when they enter the area and are no longer subject to it when they leave.
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None of that applies because Blade Barrier has no area.
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By the way, when I posted this "It might intersect a creature occupying squares on either side of the spell effect of course" I meant to say "It might intersect a creature occupying squares on both sides of the spell effect of course".
I couldn't edit anymore when I noticed the flub.
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As blade barrier is not an Area spell, I don't think you even have to start it at a grid intersection.
If you wanted to damage creatures standing in a 10-foot-wide corridor, putting it straight down the middle (five feet away from each wall) would be foolish. You want to "evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are", so you'd be better off putting it down one side or the other, or at an angle across the corridor in order to catch as many of the creatures as possible.
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One advantage to putting it on a gridline, even if it does not damage anyone, is that no one could end up on the favorable side of the barrier. If anyone wants to cross from one side of the hall to the other, they'll have to take damage. Also, if they want to attack someone on the other side, that character would have cover. If you place it on top of one side, and the characters make their saves, then they can declare themselves to be on the side closest to the other row of squares and move to the other side of the hall/attack freely.
I'm going to throw another piece of info into the fray on horizontal walls of force. From the CRB,
Transparent floors, made of reinforced glass or magic materials (even a wall of force). allow a dangerous setting to be viewed safely from above. Transparent floors are sometimes placed over lava pools, arenas, monster dens, and torture chambers. They can be used by defenders to watch key areas for intruders.Resume debate at your leisure.
Cube of force also uses horizontal walls - but 'magic items' are different... (some also create hemisphere walls of force - it's apparently a very versatile spell if you aren't ... actually casting it).
None of that applies because Blade Barrier has no area.
RULES FOR SPELLS ALWAYS APPLY. Site references if you're going to argue.
By your statement, if it has no area, then the area rules for "intersection to intersection" wouldn't apply either. Because that reference is to "area." So, why would you even think you could put it on a gridline? Or put it anywhere for that matter?
Read the entire magic section. It has a range. It has an effect. Read the effect section. Who does it effect? How does it effect them? That's in the spell's description.
Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.
You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear..
Effect wall of whirling blades up to 20 ft. long/level, or a ringed wall of whirling blades with a radius of up to 5 ft. per two levels; either form is 20 ft. high
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Reflex half or Reflex negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
An immobile, vertical curtain of whirling blades shaped of pure force springs into existence. Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6), with a Reflex save for half damage.
If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. Each such creature can avoid the wall (ending up on the side of its choice) and thus take no damage by making a successful Reflex save.
A blade barrier provides cover (+4 bonus to AC, +2 bonus on Reflex saves) against attacks made through it.
Within the rules of magic, if you don't put it in a square, then it's not going to effect anyone unless they're just passing through.
Please don't state your misinterpretation as facts or RAW without siting anything to support your claim.
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FAQ Question:
Would spells without a defined "area" such as Blade Barrier still use the rules for area as "intersection to intersection" when determining which squares are effected? AND could a wall such as this solely exist on the "gridline" and effect both sides accordingly?
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Find the word "gridline" in any book 3.X or PF. If it is on a gridline, its not in my square, so no save. If it takes up no space, it couldn't possibly be in my square, no save.
It is a spell. It uses area of effect to determine which squares it effects. Intersection to intersection to determine which squares their in. Look at the diagram for clarification if you have to. In the 17 years I've been playing, never even had to argue about this.
Read all of my previous posts.
Or post a coherent question for FAQ.
1) it hasn't an area, it as a effect, so rules related to area are irrelevant.
2) the effect isn't a line, so rules related to lines aren't relevant, too.
3) it is a wall, nothing stop the caster for placing it in the middle of a square.
4) I up your 17 years of playing with my 37.
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The rules are pretty clear.
The header of Blade Barrier puts it in the effect category "Other"
"Other: A spell can have a unique area, as defined in its description."
And the description of Blade Barrier only gives dimensions and orientation, so there's no restriction as to the positioning.
Ckorik posted a different FAQ candidate
Koi, can you summarize what you've been saying?
I'll try.
Walls definitely need their own section in the rules. The idea that walls exist on gridlines and can effect the occupant of a square has never been supported by any rule in the magic section.
Area summarized:
Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, the point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.
duration states:
If the spell affects an area, then the spell stays with that area for its duration. Creatures become subject to the spell when they enter the area and are no longer subject to it when they leave.
Effect wrote:
Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.
You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it.
blade barrier wrote:
Effect wall of whirling blades up to 20 ft. long/level, or a ringed wall of whirling blades with a radius of up to 5 ft. per two levels; either form is 20 ft. high
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Reflex half or Reflex negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
An immobile, vertical curtain of whirling blades shaped of pure force springs into existence. Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6), with a Reflex save for half damage.
If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. Each such creature can avoid the wall (ending up on the side of its choice) and thus take no damage by making a successful Reflex save.
Within the rules of magic, if you don't put it in a square, then it's not going to effect anyone unless they're just passing through.
area again states:
The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection.. you count from intersection to intersection.
If the far edge of a square is within the spell's area, anything within that square is within the spell's area. If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.
line of effect wrote:
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.
This passage exists because a line is actually represented in a 5ft square. Or rather the 5ft square it effects.
The spell doesn't list an area, it lists a length, and then describes how it effects creatures who obviously occupy squares. It doesn't matter if its a 2D wall, that's still an area of effect, if its only on gridline, its not effecting my square therefore can't effect me.
If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are (in my square), each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall.
Each such creature can avoid the wall (ending up on the side of its choice) (still in my square, but for purposes of further movement, declare a favorable side) and thus take no damage by making a successful Reflex save.
Flaming sphere comes to mind. Reflex save to avoid but it's still in my square til I move.
Area of effect isn't about the width of the wall, its about what squares it effects. Doesn't need a width to effect a space.
I understand a lightning bolt is a line, but it's only a couple inches thick and effects any 5 foot square it goes through.
If it effects the square then it effects the occupant.
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Thanks, Koi. A key contention that both Diego and I have made is that the rules about Casting Spells that you quote from under the "Area" heading are not applicable to blade barrier, because it is an Effect spell, not an Area spell. These rules are presented working through the spell description format, category by category: Name, School, Level, Components, Casting Time, and Range. The next section is titled "Aiming a Spell" and states:
You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.
Note that the choices you must make about a spell (such as where it is to originate) depend on its type. We're now on to the next entry in the spell description, which is one of three types: Target, Effect, or Area. We have three separate sections of rules, covering the rules for each of those types of spell. So, from the construction of this whole part of the rules, it seems clear that you should only apply the rules from the appropriate section to any given spell; the other sections are talking about different types of spell. Furthermore, the rules in the different sections don't make sense if applied to other types of spell (for example, the Area section says "you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects", which wouldn't make sense if you tried to apply that to a Target spell).
I hope my rather long-winded explanation makes it clear why we think that you shouldn't cite rules for Area spells when talking about an Effect spell (or vice versa).
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Koi, can you summarize what you've been saying?
I'll try.
Walls definitely need their own section in the rules. The idea that walls exist on gridlines and can effect the occupant of a square has never been supported by any rule in the magic section.
Yes, and no. Supported, no. Prohibited? Never.
You are arguing that it is somewhat prohibited.
Area summarized:
Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, the point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection.
Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection.
Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Above are all instances of grid in the magic section.
There is only a "small" problem with your interpretation. Blade barrier don't have an area, it has an effect, and that effect isn't a spread, so you are trying to apply rules that aren't relevant to that effect.
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Effect wall of whirling blades up to 20 ft. long/level, or a ringed wall of whirling blades with a radius of up to 5 ft. per two levels; either form is 20 ft. high
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Reflex half or Reflex negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
An immobile, vertical curtain of whirling blades shaped of pure force springs into existence. Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6), with a Reflex save for half damage.
If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. Each such creature can avoid the wall (ending up on the side of its choice) and thus take no damage by making a successful Reflex save.
Within the rules of magic, if you don't put it in a square, then it's not going to effect anyone unless they're just passing through.area again states:
The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection.. you count from intersection to intersection.
If the far edge of a square is within the spell's area, anything within that square is within the spell's area. If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.
Exactly, read what you say and what you cited:
"area again states" vs "Effect wall of whirling blades".AN AREA ISN'T AN EFFECT!
line of effect wrote:
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.This passage exists because a line is actually represented in a 5ft square. Or rather the 5ft square it effects.
A line spell and a line of effect aren't related in any way.
The spell doesn't list an area, it lists a length, and then describes how it effects creatures who obviously occupy squares. It doesn't matter if its a 2D wall, that's still an area of effect, if its only on gridline, its not effecting my square therefore can't effect me.
Area is a game term and a specific piece of a spell description.
You are confusing the game term with the generic use in the english language. They aren't interchangeable.
Walls in the middle of squares are annoying. Maps are much nicer when walls keep to the edges of the square.
I disagree, depending on the wall. Barriers along grid lines are nice, but damage spells in the middle of squares makes adjudicating effect a lot easier.
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The way I've always thought of it is if a line like blade barrier crosses a square, then it affects a character in that square. I have no problem with putting a blade barrier along a Grid line, but then it is not crossing any squares. It is on the edge of the squares, and so it would not affect anyone unless they pass through the barrier. If you want to drop it on someone, it has to be in the middle (not absolute center) of the square, otherwise it is not crossing an occupied square.
EDIT: "If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall." Creatures are not on the edges of squares. Creatures are in squares. It's fine to place the barrier on a grid line to split a 10 foot hallway, but it's not going to cause anyone to make a saving throw, and it's not going to damage anyone, unless they pass through it.
The way I've always thought of it is if a line like blade barrier crosses a square, then it affects a character in that square. I have no problem with putting a blade barrier along a Grid line, but then it is not crossing any squares. It is on the edge of the squares, and so it would not affect anyone unless they pass through the barrier. If you want to drop it on someone, it has to be in the middle (not absolute center) of the square, otherwise it is not crossing an occupied square.
EDIT: "If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall." Creatures are not on the edges of squares. Creatures are in squares. It's fine to place the barrier on a grid line to split a 10 foot hallway, but it's not going to cause anyone to make a saving throw, and it's not going to damage anyone, unless they pass through it.
Except it can still be in the middle of a creatures space even if it does fall along an edge of a square - creatures larger than medium size have grid lines running through their spaces.
So that bolded part can apply in either case (the middle of the square or the edge), and is not an indication of the spell working either way. Either way you rule the spell to work (middle of a square or the edge), that line would still work.
Thanks Callum and Diego for taking the time to present your findings. I understand now that since it's an effect, I can essentially put the blade barrier wherever I want and not limited to area rules which add confusion, within squares or along the edge (gridline), and came to the same conclusion that Ferious just posted.
If I put it in a square with an occupant, he'll have to save and then it still has the same effect as it's described, cross take damage and provides cover. At that point, anyone entering the square is find until they states they're crossing through it.
If I place it between two squares (gridline), then no one is going to be effected unless they try to cross through it.
So, it depends on where I put it. And I'm not required to put it anywhere originating from a corner of my square or any square.
It's medium range, has multiple functions, offensive, battlefield containment, surround yourself so that any attackers are taking damage and you have cover.
So, if the OP's DM did put it straight down the middle of a 10x hallway, it's essentially just dividing the hall and no one would be effected unless they crossed through it.
Still support Ckorik's FAQ request because an official response on the subject would certainly solve a lot of inclarities. Even something simple, like "a spell that effects a square but isn't an area spell originates from a corner or the center of an edge." So then we're just connecting the dots.
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The way I've always thought of it is if a line like blade barrier crosses a square, then it affects a character in that square. I have no problem with putting a blade barrier along a Grid line, but then it is not crossing any squares. It is on the edge of the squares, and so it would not affect anyone unless they pass through the barrier. If you want to drop it on someone, it has to be in the middle (not absolute center) of the square, otherwise it is not crossing an occupied square.
EDIT: "If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall." Creatures are not on the edges of squares. Creatures are in squares. It's fine to place the barrier on a grid line to split a 10 foot hallway, but it's not going to cause anyone to make a saving throw, and it's not going to damage anyone, unless they pass through it.
Except it can still be in the middle of a creatures space even if it does fall along an edge of a square - creatures larger than medium size have grid lines running through their spaces.
So that bolded part can apply in either case (the middle of the square or the edge), and is not an indication of the spell working either way. Either way you rule the spell to work (middle of a square or the edge), that line would still work.
That's a good point. I guess I should have said passes through a creature instead of passing through a square. If it's a large creature, and the wall is passing through the middle of it, then yes, it should affect it. If it's a medium or smaller creature, and the line is passing along the edge of that creature's square, then it is not passing through the creature's space, and it does not affect it.
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Thanks Callum and Diego for taking the time to present your findings. I understand now that since it's an effect, I can essentially put the blade barrier wherever I want and not limited to area rules which add confusion, within squares or along the edge (gridline), and came to the same conclusion that Ferious just posted.
I doff my hat to you. You show a lot of style.
Still support Ckorik's FAQ request because an official response on the subject would certainly solve a lot of inclarities. Even something simple, like "a spell that effects a square but isn't an area spell originates from a corner or the center of an edge." So then we're just connecting the dots.
A FAQ about walls isn't easy, as I am not sure all the authors have used them in a coherent way, and a general rule could cause some as jet unforeseen problem.
On the other hand a rule would be nice. But it seem something more appropriate to a small blog than a FAQ, that by its nature is generally short.
If you search the messageboards, over the years there have been dozens of posts about blade barrier regarding the same issue and clarification, specifically. So, maybe a FAQ regarding it as an example would be enough. It's not game changing, but if the team steps up and decides to expand on other spells as examples, then we'll have a lot more than what we asked for. Imagine a response that clarifies this spell, wall of fire, etc. You or I may not seem to need it per se, and the magic rules do explain plenty, but the FAQ isn't only for major issues. Reoccurring posts is the definition of a frequently asked question.