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"Jingasa, table of six? Jingasa?"
Considering the designer who made the archetype clearly stated that it was something they felt was an inherent part when they created it, I find that statement just not true. It is not like after the fact he came back and said, "you know I think this would work better as only for Sarenae worshipers." Waiting 2+ years after it went to print and now saying it should get fixed is a bit much.
That is a mechanical fix, not a flavor one.
Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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While I'm normally on the 'inclusion' side of the fence, the idea of that much cultural blend in two nation-states that traditionally have warred with each other for centuries seems a bit 'off'.While there is a valid argument 'since it is not written in the description SPECIFICALLY', when the discussion came up in the other thread I had a disconnect because the Dervish seemed very much to be devoted to Sarenrae, much like Bladed Brush is devoted to Shelyn.
The fact that a developer has indicated that their initial design idea was that this was related to the sacred path of a given deity, even if it doesn't have 'full weight' in PFS, should be a telling point as well.
EDIT: Figured out the disconnect for me, at least. It feels sort of like Lawful Good paladins of Asmodeus...
I always thought it was just some fancy schmancy fighting style given that the origins of the whole archetype and fighting style never mentions Sarenrae at all. It just says some people sword fight this way which is the most generic description ever for a book that has setting requirements.
While the developer has spoken his intention, the fact the deity requirement did not make it into the final product is equally telling to me. Plenty of archetypes and PrC were printed prior to the ACO with deity requirements clearly stated, and for this to be 2+ years later to now be an issue only brought up by the possible interaction of it with a deity specific feat seems ridiculous on some level. If the requirement was so important, then it should have been addressed before this point.There's PrCs that have Deity requirements that are clearly listed but I don't know of any Archetypes that had Deity requirements.
There are a bunch. None outside of the one that aren't for Paladins and the like.
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It only doesn't mention Sarenrae if you're reading it on d20 where they have to scrub the the flavor, the full and unedited text mentions Sarenrae a LOT.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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It only doesn't mention Sarenrae if you're reading it on d20 where they have to scrub the the flavor, the full and unedited text mentions Sarenrae a LOT.
Im referring to the progenitor of all of those archetypes Dervish Dance which is just a generic combat feat.
As for the Archetypes aside from a few requiring a deity with a certain domain I've not been able to find any aside from the Dawnflower Dervish from before ACO.
Huh.... I thought Green Faith Initiate had a requirement because of its name but nope.
EDIT:There isn't a single diety based archetype I can find that lists worship as its requirement. I can find a half of dozen of them but no requirement listed.
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Not exactly, in Qadira, Gateway to the East where it was introduced the Dervishes are specifically called out as servants of Sarenrae (in Golarion Dervish is shorthand for Dervish of Sarenrae), and the sidebar containing the feat contains a Sarenrae only trait as well as a magic item by Sarenrites. So the whole book talks about what Dervishes are and then there's the Feat that lets you fight like them so saying it's a generic combat feat is kind of a misnomer.
Iroran Paladin was in Inner Sea Combat which came before ACO and also doesn't explicitly say "must worship Irori" despite the fact that you probably should.
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The Iomedaen Enforcer archetype for Paladins doesn't have a bolded callout stating "must worship Iomedae" with their abilities but it does state they are servants of her in the information text to the archetype.
So while it, Iroran Paladin, and Whirling Dervish don't have callouts like feats and prestige classes it's very clear that you have to be a worshipper of the deity in question in order to have the archetype.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Not exactly, in Qadira, Gateway to the East where it was introduced the Dervishes are specifically called out as servants of Sarenrae (in Golarion Dervish is shorthand for Dervish of Sarenrae), and the sidebar containing the feat contains a Sarenrae only trait as well as a magic item by Sarenrites. So the whole book talks about what Dervishes are and then there's the Feat that lets you fight like them so saying it's a generic combat feat is kind of a misnomer.
Iroran Paladin was in Inner Sea Combat which came before ACO and also doesn't explicitly say "must worship Irori" despite the fact that you probably should.
And yet the setting book which largely is about the entire continent mentions none of that. Hell more wordage is spent on the fighting style of goblins than Dervish Dancers in that book so yeah it comes off as a generic combat feat if you don't own that book.
Sounds like keeping this as is would be pretty consistent then.
EDIT:
There isn't a single diety based archetype I can find that lists worship as its requirement. I can find a half of dozen of them but no requirement listed.
I can name a dozen archetypes that actually have it as a requirement. Mind you I agree with the sentiment old content should remain the same but still they have been fairly consistent with it after ACO.
EDIT:Nithveil Druid, Asmodean Advocate, Reaper of Secrets and Kraken Caller are all diety specific archetypes I can think off of the top of my head. Though this does make me wonder as to why Dirty Tactics Toolbox has three of them.
So while it, Iroran Paladin, and Whirling Dervish don't have callouts like feats and prestige classes it's very clear that you have to be a worshipper of the deity in question in order to have the archetype.
No. Its really arbitrary as to whether or not its actually the case. Hell in one of the newest Sarenrae themed archetypes the artworks is a completely different deity.
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And yet the setting book which largely is about the entire continent mentions none of that. Hell more wordage is spent on the fighting style of goblins than Dervish Dancers in that book so yeah it comes off as a generic combat feat if you don't own that book.
Uh, the setting book does mention that stuff, I just listed it off. And lots of things will come off as completely generic if you haven't read the lore or own the book so that's not really an argument.
No. Its really arbitrary as to whether or not its actually the case. Hell in one of the newest Sarenrae themed archetypes the artworks is a completely different deity.
It's not really arbitrary when they explicitly call themselves servants of Iomedae, in his service (Iroran Paladin), and followers of Sarenrae in the very archetype.
And what latest Sarenrae Archetype are you talking about? The only thing I can think of that mentions her is the Angelfire Apostle, but it also mentions Ragathiel and that's what the art matches.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Uh, the setting book does mention that stuff, I just listed it off. And lots of things will come off as completely generic if you haven't read the lore or own the book so that's not really an argument.
And why would a person completely new to the setting buy a book about Qadira? They wouldn't. The book which they would buy literally just says its a generic fighting style.
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The Feat was first published in the Qadira book, so if they wanted to use it in PFS they had to have it.
They then later republished the Feat in Inner Sea World Guide (THE Golarion lore book), which has this opener for the feats,
The following feats are available to all characters and creatures that qualify for them. Note that some of these feats have strong ties to specific regions, races, or religions, but in most cases that shouldn’t preclude you from taking one of these feats for any character you wish—provided you include elements in your character’s history that satisfy world verisimilitude and justify your choice to your GM’s satisfaction.
The ISWG also talks about Dervishes in it as well, so again, "generic fighting style" Dervish Dance is not.
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I think the gist of it is that Dervish Dance set a precedent that you don't necessarily have to worship a god to know a highly practiced fighting style that orginated from worshippers of one.
Obviously if the feat/archetype says you do, you certainly do. But otherwise it's perfectly reasonable to say that your character simply picked up the fighting style or simply venerates that god rather than full on worship.
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The Feat was first published in the Qadira book, so if they wanted to use it in PFS they had to have it.
They then later republished the Feat in Inner Sea World Guide (THE Golarion lore book), which has this opener for the feats,
The following feats are available to all characters and creatures that qualify for them. Note that some of these feats have strong ties to specific regions, races, or religions, but in most cases that shouldn’t preclude you from taking one of these feats for any character you wish—provided you include elements in your character’s history that satisfy world verisimilitude and justify your choice to your GM’s satisfaction.The ISWG also talks about Dervishes in it as well, so again, "generic fighting style" Dervish Dance is not.
Added in some italics to emphasize while that it is a predominantly Kelesh/Sarenrite feat and isn't a generic fighting style, that doesn't mean other characters can't take it, as long as they can provide a reason for having the feat/archetype. While the bard archetype clearly specifies Sarenrae only, the swashbuckler archetype doesn't and I feel it should stay that way.
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I know, I just listed it to show that the feat isn't a generic fighting style, in regards to the whirling dervish however,
In Qadira and throughout the Padishah Empire, Sarenrae’s worshipers praise the Dawnflower through dance. Her more warlike followers adapted these dances into graceful martial forms, and their swashbuckling style is feared throughout the Inner Sea region and beyond for its ability to devastate foes with a scimitar through motion and agility regardless of strength of arms.Dervish Finesse (Ex): A whirling dervish can treat a scimitar as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler’s finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon. She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit. This ability alters swashbuckler finesse.
Dawnflower’s Mercy (Ex): While violence is sometimes necessary to cleanse evil, Sarenrae’s desire for redemption prevents her dervishes from reveling in a foe’s defeat. A whirling dervish does not gain any panache for dropping a foe below 0 hit points unless that foe is an evil outsider or undead, or if the damage she dealt was nonlethal. Additionally, she gains 1 panache point if she causes an evildoer with a number of Hit Dice equal to at least 1/2 her character level to surrender to her. She can gain this benefit no more than once per round, even if multiple enemies surrender. This ability alters panache.
Dervish Dance (Ex): At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse. She counts as having the Dervish DanceISWG feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.
Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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Added in some italics to emphasize while that it is a predominantly Kelesh/Sarenrite feat and isn't a generic fighting style, that doesn't mean other characters can't take it, as long as they can provide a reason for having the feat/archetype. While the bard archetype clearly specifies Sarenrae only, the swashbuckler archetype doesn't and I feel it should stay that way.The Feat was first published in the Qadira book, so if they wanted to use it in PFS they had to have it.
They then later republished the Feat in Inner Sea World Guide (THE Golarion lore book), which has this opener for the feats,
The following feats are available to all characters and creatures that qualify for them. Note that some of these feats have strong ties to specific regions, races, or religions, but in most cases that shouldn’t preclude you from taking one of these feats for any character you wish—provided you include elements in your character’s history that satisfy world verisimilitude and justify your choice to your GM’s satisfaction.The ISWG also talks about Dervishes in it as well, so again, "generic fighting style" Dervish Dance is not.
Changed the italicized phrase. That proviso is much more important in the PFS context. It changes the meaning of the sentence from "any character at all!" to "Limited by region, race and religion with exceptions at the GM's discretion."
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Restricting it to Sarenrae worship causes a ton of immediate problems with the number of people have already made non-Sarenrite Dervish Dancers, along with problems down the road when you have issues with what happens if a character takes an alignment infraction or stops worshipping Sarenrae. If this had been caught two years ago when the archetype first came out then sure, whatever, restrict it. The cats already out of the bag, just let it be.
How many non-Sarenrite Dervish Dancers are actually out there?
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Contributor
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How many non-Sarenrite Dervish Dancers are actually out there?
Possibly quite a few, at least based on forum threads. The idea is to exploit the 4th-level ability for Dex-to-damage with whatever weapon strikes one's fancy - this thread sprang from a suggestion to use it with Bladed Brush for Dex-to-damage with the glaive.
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I'm considering building one now. Abernathy Cailean, an orphan raised by a priest of Cayden Cailean. Started a three day bender in Absalom, woke up three days later in the camp of a group of Sarenrites in Qadira. Won them over with his charm, and stayed with them for a while, learning their ways. Eventually decided to make his way back home, joined the Society on a lark.
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True, but it does open with this,
Not every Calistrian who dedicates himself to the goddess can channel divine magic to track down those who deserve punishment. Like a bounty hunter following his own rules, a Calistrian hunter tracks down elusive prey using his wits and delivers long-overdue retribution while easily ignoring his own injuries thanks to the joy he receives from a job well done.
So the intent is there, and we do have the martial Deity specific combat style feats.
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I would not be shocked if that archetype gets a clarification at some point that limits the dex to damage option to scimitars, which frankly seems to have been the intention.While I can take or leave the deity requirement, I'm strongly in favor of this clarification.
If that does happen, they may as well just give Dervish Dance for free to the archetype. Since they did not, I do not think the intention was to be scimitar specific. Also it makes the archetype pretty subpar, since I can just use that feat to get the best parts of the archetype.
I am not in favor of that change, and honestly after this long, I think making changes to the archetype is just more harm then good.
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There's a reason it doesn't work that way, and it has to do with Paizo writing styles.
All of Paizo's books are written with the assumption that you only need the CRB and the PRD. Since Dervish Dance is not on the PRD, making it a load-bearing part of an archetype is a pretty big no-no. That's an easy explanation for why it spells out what it does, and "counts as Dervish Dance for prerequisites" (as of now, nothing has DD as a prerequisite). That's as close as you can get to "gains Dervish Dance as a bonus feat".
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I would not be shocked if that archetype gets a clarification at some point that limits the dex to damage option to scimitars, which frankly seems to have been the intention.While I can take or leave the deity requirement, I'm strongly in favor of this clarification.If that does happen, they may as well just give Dervish Dance for free to the archetype. Since they did not, I do not think the intention was to be scimitar specific. Also it makes the archetype pretty subpar, since I can just use that feat to get the best parts of the archetype.
I am not in favor of that change, and honestly after this long, I think making changes to the archetype is just more harm then good.
There is a pretty big difference between the current wording and the archetype just giving dervish dance, what you do with our off-hand really does not matter. This this archetype, like all most swashbucklers likely will use a buckler.
EDIT: And this would not be a change to the archetype, just a clarification how it is supposed to work. I am pretty sure that there are enough GMs who already came to the conclusion that this does not work with other weapons, where others weren't so sure.
Surprisingly, with or without the clarification this archetype is very good for two-weapon fighting.
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There's a reason it doesn't work that way, and it has to do with Paizo writing styles.
All of Paizo's books are written with the assumption that you only need the CRB and the PRD. Since Dervish Dance is not on the PRD, making it a load-bearing part of an archetype is a pretty big no-no. That's an easy explanation for why it spells out what it does, and "counts as Dervish Dance for prerequisites" (as of now, nothing has DD as a prerequisite). That's as close as you can get to "gains Dervish Dance as a bonus feat".
How is it good for TWF? The ability to dex to damage only works when using your swashbuckler's finesse
Isabelle: You are incorrect about all the abilities spelled out assuming you only need a PRD and CRB. The Dawnflower Dervish Bard archetype hands out Dervish Dance as a bonus feat. Also if they clarify that the Whirling Dervish's dex to damage only works with Scimtars, the ability is now Dervish Dance the feat.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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The Dawnflower Dervish is in the same product line as the Inner Sea World Guide. I can see the Player Companion and Campaign Setting lines having different guidelines, and frowning on cross-product line references specifically.
Isabelle, are you speaking from experience in contributing to Paizo?
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Regarding Dawnflower dervish: that was written years before I started writing for them, so their policies may have been different then. It could also be an error, which (as I have been told multiple times) does not act as precedent for more recent products. That said, if you have different information on their policies, that's news to me - my information is based on how they tell me to do things when I write for them.
In any case, given that the tone of discourse is starting to become unpleasant, I'll let you have the thread all to yourself.
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I admit my bias and will state that I like the filing off of serial numbers of most mechanics. I never liked RP requirements for mechanics. Call it "world verisimilitude" if you want it is just how my brain operates. I could name any number of world traveling characters from popular fiction who learned fighting styles from different cultures that they neither hailed from or were raised. Like all three male leads from the Wheel of Time series which seems particularly relevant to Bladed Brush conversation that this thread sprang from.
But others have made an even better point in that changing it now could affect several characters that already exist. Grandfathering doesn't really fix this. In my opinion it creates a worse RP divide than leaving it be as then we have characters who could learn how to fight like other cultures along side ones who are just too bullheaded to get it through their head. Ironic coming from me, right? That is what it comes down to for me for people who are pro/con on this issue too.
I feel that those who are for it's use by other cultures have a more open mind about what kinds of things people can learn to do. This is reflected in real world culture as well as popular fiction. Those who believe that it cannot be done by other cultures... well, I just can't follow that line of thinking.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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There's a reason it doesn't work that way, and it has to do with Paizo writing styles.
All of Paizo's books are written with the assumption that you only need the CRB and the PRD. Since Dervish Dance is not on the PRD, making it a load-bearing part of an archetype is a pretty big no-no. That's an easy explanation for why it spells out what it does, and "counts as Dervish Dance for prerequisites" (as of now, nothing has DD as a prerequisite). That's as close as you can get to "gains Dervish Dance as a bonus feat".
How is it good for TWF? The ability to dex to damage only works when using your swashbuckler's finesse
Isabelle: You are incorrect about all the abilities spelled out assuming you only need a PRD and CRB. The Dawnflower Dervish Bard archetype hands out Dervish Dance as a bonus feat. Also if they clarify that the Whirling Dervish's dex to damage only works with Scimtars, the ability is now Dervish Dance the feat.
Well if you go by the assumption that the limit from the Dervish Finesse class feature only applies to the use of a scimitar (I am not so sure about that bit, I hope I made that big clearer earlier in the thread) then there is nothing stopping you from dual wielding anything that works with the vanilla Swashbuckler Finesse.
At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefit of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of her Intelligence score as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purpose of meeting feat prerequisites.
Since the Dervish Dance archetype feature, only talks about swashbuckler finesse.
At 4th level, a whirling dervish
can use her Dexterity modif ier instead of her Strength
modif ier on melee damage rolls when using her
swashbuckler f inesse. She counts as having the Dervish
DanceISWG feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.
Which is pretty much my reason, why I think that the limitation applies to all weapons used with swashbuckler finesse, otherwise the scimitar is just plain worse in this archetype.
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There's a reason it doesn't work that way, and it has to do with Paizo writing styles.
All of Paizo's books are written with the assumption that you only need the CRB and the PRD. Since Dervish Dance is not on the PRD, making it a load-bearing part of an archetype is a pretty big no-no. That's an easy explanation for why it spells out what it does, and "counts as Dervish Dance for prerequisites" (as of now, nothing has DD as a prerequisite). That's as close as you can get to "gains Dervish Dance as a bonus feat".
How is it good for TWF? The ability to dex to damage only works when using your swashbuckler's finesse
Isabelle: You are incorrect about all the abilities spelled out assuming you only need a PRD and CRB. The Dawnflower Dervish Bard archetype hands out Dervish Dance as a bonus feat. Also if they clarify that the Whirling Dervish's dex to damage only works with Scimtars, the ability is now Dervish Dance the feat.
Well if you go by the assumption that the limit from the Dervish Finesse class feature only applies to the use of a scimitar (I am not so sure about that bit, I hope I made that big clearer earlier in the thread) then there is nothing stopping you from dual wielding anything that works with the vanilla Swashbuckler Finesse.
At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefit of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of her Intelligence score as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purpose of meeting feat prerequisites.Since the Dervish Dance archetype feature, only talks about swashbuckler finesse.
...At 4th level, a whirling dervish
can use her Dexterity modif ier instead of her Strength
modif ier on melee damage rolls when using her
swashbuckler f inesse. She counts as having the Dervish
DanceISWG
Wow, you are correct. I had it stuck in my head that swashbuckler's finesse had the same requirements as Precise Strike. That is sweet for TWF.