I have a few questions on the subject, because I encountered a Barbazu Beard.
Barbazu Beard
Description: A barbazu beard can be used as an off-hand weapon that requires no hands to use; thus, a warrior could combine use of a barbazu beard with a two-handed weapon.
Attacking with a barbazu beard provokes an attack of opportunity. Because it is so close to the wearer’s face, using a barbazu beard against creatures harmful to touch (such as fire elementals and acidic oozes) has the same risks as using a natural weapon or unarmed strike against these creatures.
1)Does Barbazu Beard work as written?
2)Would Monk's unarmed strike work as well?
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved
Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be
with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk
may make unarmed strikes with his hands full.
3)Are there any other examples of this two weapon fighting with a two handed weapon?
I am aware of this FAQ:
"Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
No.
Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks."
4)Are there any rules or any other FAQ I should be aware of?
No, you cannot.
There is a FAQ specifically baring two weapon fighting while using a two-handed weapon.
So Barbazu Beard does not work as written then?
Where may I find this FAQ?
In this case it may be specific trumps general. I don't really see anything implying natural weapon. This isn't a set of armor spikes, so I think it's exempt.
|
The beard works as written, it is an attack that would take the place of a natural attack, such as a gore or tail slap, though the item itself is not natural (except on a bearded devil)
It is an exception to the rule in this case, specifically spelled out in the item's entry.
Another example is the Thunder and Fang feat, where the Earth Breaker (a two handed weapon) is used in one hand, in conjunction with the Klar and is two weapon fighting as one handed/light respectively.
A monk can not use his unarmed attack in conjunction with the Two Handed weapon, though he can flurry with a monk weapon that is two handed, or is used with two hands in the case of one handed weapons.
When a Two Handed weapon is used with one hand because of a feat, ability or magical property, it is treated as if it was a One Handed weapon when Two Weapon fighting with it. It is up to GM call as to if one could use two of them at the same time, as there are no rules for off hand use for the Two Handed weapon, no matter how it is wielded by the character.
It is a contentious issue that has been discussed in the past, and certain items break the usual rule have been mentioned, such as the Bastard Sword, Lance, and the Barbazu Beard you have the question on.
Typically, one can not two weapon fight with a Two Handed Weapon, as all the effort is taken with that weapon, giving the character the added str bonus (1.5).
The discussion on hands-of-effort was a developer post. I've lost track of the original post, but the implications are discussed here.
The barbazu beard is a specific exemption.
Monks can flurry with two-handed weapons, provided the weapon has the monk designation or has some other rules permitting the weapon to be used as part of a flurry. (There are several options allowing the usage of non-monk weapons.)
So Barbazu Beard does not work as written then?
Where may I find this FAQ?
Barbazu Beard doesn't work, Boot Blade doesn't work, Unarmed Strike doesn't work...Natural Weapons, ironically enough, can. Presuming they don't take limbs you normally attack with, of course, and you don't TWF (because I believe Natural Attacks are precluded through TWF). Even then, they'll be Secondary, and only have Half Strength bonus. But other than that, basically nothing works.
Relevant FAQ is Here. The why as to the FAQ is assumed to be through SKR's "Hands of Effort" unwritten rule, and basically, you cannot TWF with a Two-handed Weapon to gain more than 1.5x Strength, either separately or combined, unless you have a special ability or feat allowing otherwise (Double Slice is one example, Dragon Ferocity with Unarmed Strikes is another).
Keep in mind that this doesn't exclude you from using regular iterative attacks (such as a simple Full Attack) and alternate attacks between two weapons, as evidenced by this FAQ here, so if you're ever grappled, you can still fight with the Barbazu Beard.
To Darksol the Painbringer, How is a FAQ for Armor Spikes excluded the use of Barbazu Beard?
To clarify, does this part of FAQ "using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks." Is the reasoning behind not using a two-handed weapon with a weapon that doesn't use a hand?
To thaX,
I think I see your line of reasoning.
Typically, one can not two weapon fight with a Two Handed Weapon, as all the effort is taken with that weapon, giving the character the added str bonus (1.5).
This line of reasoning makes more sense to me.
|
|
Darksol argument is born from the developer posts in several discussions about wielding a 2 handed weapon and two weapon fighting and is the same used by thaX. The dev position was that you have 2 hands of effort, and you can make only 2 hands of "attacks" (unless using natural weapons), even if some weapon don't require hands.
Barbazu beard is in " Cheliax: Empire of Devils Copyright 2009" that was written during the passage from 3.5 to Pathfinder, so the whole book has several items/rules that don't mesh well with Pathfinder.
To Darksol the Painbringer, How is a FAQ for Armor Spikes excluded the use of Barbazu Beard?
Read the question again:
Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
Armor Spikes are a weapon that in normal circumstances do not require a hand to use. It's a major reason why, for example, Reach Builds use Armor Spikes, so they can threaten within their dead zone (the areas where their Reach Weapon cannot affect), without having to sacrifice the action economy and versatility of dropping their Reach Weapon, and drawing another Non-Reach Weapon.
The question refers to whether you can take Armor Spikes, a weapon that doesn't require a hand to wield, and use it for Two-Weapon Fighting while using a Two-Handed Weapon, which requires two hands to wield, in which case the FAQ just simply says "No."
The Barbazu Beard is identical to the Armor Spikes in terms of function and application, in that it doesn't require hands to use, and it's applied in the same place that Armor Spikes is used as. In other words, you can substitute any instance of the item "Armor Spikes" with "Barbazu Beard," and you'll get this:
Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my barbazu beard in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
And the answer will still be the same: No.
So Barbazu Beard does not work as written then?
Where may I find this FAQ?
Barbazu Beard doesn't work, Boot Blade doesn't work, Unarmed Strike doesn't work...Natural Weapons, ironically enough, can. Presuming they don't take limbs you normally attack with, of course, and you don't TWF (because I believe Natural Attacks are precluded through TWF). Even then, they'll be Secondary, and only have Half Strength bonus. But other than that, basically nothing works.
Relevant FAQ is Here. The why as to the FAQ is assumed to be through SKR's "Hands of Effort" unwritten rule, and basically, you cannot TWF with a Two-handed Weapon to gain more than 1.5x Strength, either separately or combined, unless you have a special ability or feat allowing otherwise (Double Slice is one example, Dragon Ferocity with Unarmed Strikes is another).
Keep in mind that this doesn't exclude you from using regular iterative attacks (such as a simple Full Attack) and alternate attacks between two weapons, as evidenced by this FAQ here, so if you're ever grappled, you can still fight with the Barbazu Beard.
Description: A barbazu beard can be used as an off-hand weapon that requires no hands to use; thus, a warrior could combine use of a barbazu beard with a two-handed weapon.
Specific > General
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Keep in mind the beard was written pre THW+Armor Spikes FAQ.
It was probably written by someone using the 3.5 WotC FAQ of "you can TWF with THW and Armor Spikes."
Along comes the PF hands of effort.
Now you have two hands of effort.
Pick which weapon to apply them to.
You can't use one for two different weapons to gain more attacks.
Keep in mind the beard was written pre THW+Armor Spikes.
It was probably written by someone using the 3.5 WotC FAQ of "you can TWF with THW and Armor Spikes."Along comes the PF hands of effort.
Now you have two hands of effort.
Pick which weapon to apply them to.
You can't use one for two different weapons to gain more attacks.
Until the Barbazu beard is subject to an errata, it specifically states it can be used in conjunction with a two-handed weapon.
That specific allowance trumps the general rule regarding hands-of-effort.
So the General rule would be:
1)No, I can't two weapon fight with a two-handed weapon. For 2-handed is a form of effort, not just the number of hands.
2)Unless the item, feat, special ability, etc specifically states it can be used as an off-hand weapon that can be used with 2-handed weapons.
Side question,
Do creatures follow this rule as well? Or is it just to Players? I remember a few 4 armed creatures wielding multiple 2-handed weapons.
The developers have stated many times that the rules assume a standard humanoid body configuration.
Creatures with more than two hands, including pc's, can use more than two weapons / combine two weapon fighting with two-handed weapons.
How does any of this work with Gorum's 2nd sentinel boon, then? What penalties are you taking?
Two-Handed Smash (Ex) If you make a full attack while wielding a two-handed melee weapon, you may make a single unarmed strike in addition to your normal attacks. In essence, after you complete your two-handed weapon attacks, you smash with your elbow, kick out with a foot, or make some other unarmed strike against an opponent. This bonus attack is made at your highest base attack bonus, and provokes an attack of opportunity if you lack the Improved Unarmed Strike feat or a similar ability. If you’re Medium, you deal 1d6 points of damage with this unarmed strike; if you’re Small, you deal 1d4 points of damage. Add half your Strength bonus to the damage dealt. The attack roll for the unarmed strike is subject to the normal penalties for two-weapon fighting unless you have the feats to reduce these penalties.
|
|
How does any of this work with Gorum's 2nd sentinel boon, then? What penalties are you taking?
Two-Handed Smash (Ex) If you make a full attack while wielding a two-handed melee weapon, you may make a single unarmed strike in addition to your normal attacks. In essence, after you complete your two-handed weapon attacks, you smash with your elbow, kick out with a foot, or make some other unarmed strike against an opponent. This bonus attack is made at your highest base attack bonus, and provokes an attack of opportunity if you lack the Improved Unarmed Strike feat or a similar ability. If you’re Medium, you deal 1d6 points of damage with this unarmed strike; if you’re Small, you deal 1d4 points of damage. Add half your Strength bonus to the damage dealt. The attack roll for the unarmed strike is subject to the normal penalties for two-weapon fighting unless you have the feats to reduce these penalties.
I would say "none". It is not an extra attack from two weapon fighting, it is an extra attack from "Gorum Sentinel". It is more similar to the extra attack you get from haste (but it isn't an haste effect, so it stack with it).
|
|
Keep in mind the beard was written pre THW+Armor Spikes.
It was probably written by someone using the 3.5 WotC FAQ of "you can TWF with THW and Armor Spikes."Along comes the PF hands of effort.
Now you have two hands of effort.
Pick which weapon to apply them to.
You can't use one for two different weapons to gain more attacks.Until the Barbazu beard is subject to an errata, it specifically states it can be used in conjunction with a two-handed weapon.
That specific allowance trumps the general rule regarding hands-of-effort.
It is a Player companion, and one halfway between 3.5 and Pathfinder, it is improbable it will ever errated.
Thank You all for your help and input. I've learn a lot from this tread.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
It is a Player companion, and one halfway between 3.5 and Pathfinder, it is improbable it will ever errated.
Ok, that makes it make a lot of sense.
It was written in a 3.5 world with the 3.5 FAQ of "you can THW+armor spikes", when PF had just came out.
PF decided you can't THW+armor spikes, so this item wouldn't be an exception to the PF hand of effort concept.
So the General rule would be:
1)No, I can't two weapon fight with a two-handed weapon. For 2-handed is a form of effort, not just the number of hands.2)Unless the item, feat, special ability, etc specifically states it can be used as an off-hand weapon that can be used with 2-handed weapons.
Side question,
Do creatures follow this rule as well? Or is it just to Players? I remember a few 4 armed creatures wielding multiple 2-handed weapons.
Pretty much. Also note that the portion you questioned about earlier refers that, even if you have the hands to use a greatsword, you cannot alternate hands while performing TWF to utilize other weapons (and a spiked gauntlet was given as an example), because the hands using your greatsword are occupied for the entirety of the TWF action.
As for creatures, they follow the same rules as everything else at the gaming table. Which means that both creatures and PCs alike have special rules governing increased limbs, and the rules are written assuming a bipedal humanoid with two hands.
Incidentally, multi-armed creatures can't use multiple two-handed weapons, as it invalidates the unwritten strength modifier clause SKR implemented for TWF. In other words, because you get too much of a standard Strength modifier (which can be increased further via Double Slice), you can't use multiple two-handed weapons.
There was a post where he basically outright says this is the reason the Armor Spikes FAQ was made the way it was, but I'm too lazy/bored/occupied to find it. I imagine somebody else will do the honors of linking it.
You can TWF with two-handers using Brawler's Flurry, you could even do it with just the two-hander if you want to.
Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler’s flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the “monk” special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.
A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler’s flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands. A brawler can substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of brawler’s flurry. A brawler with natural weapons can’t use such weapons as part of brawler’s flurry, nor can she make natural weapon attacks in addition to her brawler’s flurry attacks.
|
|
I don't think the "Hands of effort" is exclusively a Pathfinder thing. It is a particular that is the guide for what weapons and attacks can do that had been in the background of the original tenants of the 3.0 design. It is referenced as a known quantity in the posts and was explained later in the FAQ that Darksol mentions.
I wonder if the beard might be considered a natural attack (made at a -5 in conjuntion with weapon attacks) instead of an manufactured measure like Armor Spikes? I am unsure, and can see that the beard my not garner any additional advantage above what the application of Armor Spikes would merit.
Would it be able to be used like a gore attack instead, if updated?
Nice find on the Brawler.
@ Ridiculon: You theoretically could. But you'd only ever benefit from 1x Strength at any given time, since Brawler's Flurry overwrites all Strength modifier benefits.
@ thaX: I'd say it is Pathfinder-exclusive. In 3.X, TWF with a two-handed weapon and armor spikes was explicitly allowed, and the developers didn't give two figs about "hands of effort." In fact, "hands of effort" wasn't really a thing until the Armor Spikes FAQ came in, and it was explained by SKR as to why that was the answer.
Nope, the Barbazu Beard is not a Natural Attack. If it was, it'd be called out as being a Natural Weapon (and based on the assumption of what the Beard does, a Secondary Natural Weapon at that). Lacking that text, and considering the factor that it's manufactured (and not built into a character's biological anatomy), the likelihood of it being a Natural Weapon is near zero.
|
|
How it is enforced or ruled in the previous era's rules team doesn't make it a sudden add on for the system later on. It is referenced in the cut and paste rules for Two Weapon Fighting in the Core Rulebook, and Off Hand use for light and One Handed weapons is in the weapon designation section.
The more particular rule that imparts a limit was clarified by the Pathfinder team, but it isn't, in my mind, an added limitation that somehow was not there, but rather an enforcement of the guiding principle that imparts that limit.
Some call it "the unwritten rule." Though it is somewhat vague in the text of the current rulebook, the overall structure is there and referenced throughout.
The main concern here is that the Beard actually provides text that would (if read right) an exception to this limitation. That is what the question really is about here, and I believe the original intent of the item was to use much like how the creature that naturally has it would. Having it as a Natural Attack (via Magical Item properties) would allow for that.
Would you think if the item was changed as such, it would allow for this type of use?
I do think as it is now, the likely ruling is that it can not be used as an extra attack beyond the two hands of effort.
Another thing about the item is that it effectively provides a way to threaten adjacent squares while wielding a reach weapon.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"A barbazu beard can be used as an off-hand weapon that requires no hands to use"
The weapon specifically requires no hands. This would include no hands of effort.
The unwritten rule wasn't a thing when I played 3.X, and we have a 3.X FAQ that specifically allowed two-handed weapons with Armor Spikes. Come Pathfinder, the allowance was revoked; that doesn't make the current rules an "add-on," but a revision of a previously assumed rule.
Even if it has the text, the FAQ says you can't. And if you rule it as a Natural Weapon, you're still running into the FAQ issues of using a Light Weapon with a Two-handed Weapon, not to mention the question of whether you can even use Natural Weapons, either as part of or in place of weapon attacks for TWF, to which I'd say you can't do the former, but the latter is plausible (but also pointless).
Manufactured weapons and natural weapons can be used together, as long as the natural weapons are the secondary ones such as bite, tail slap or a gore.
I agree, though, it would need to be specifically clear and as it is now, the item suffers limits because of the clarification on Armor Spikes.
That's not quite how using natural and manufactured weapons works. You can use primary natural attacks, like claws or bite (not sure why you listed that one as secondary, I don't recall any secondary bite attacks) as long as you aren't using that limb for something else, they just become secondary.
Like you could attack with a Morningstar in one hand and claw with the other.
That simply doesn't mean what you think it means if that's the meaning you get from that."A barbazu beard can be used as an off-hand weapon that requires no hands to use"
The weapon specifically requires no hands. This would include no hands of effort.
A barbazu beard can be used as an off-hand weapon that requires no hands to use; thus, a warrior could combine use of a barbazu beard with a two-handed weapon.
Emphasis mine.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
We keep covering the same topics.
Either what _Ozy_ said, assumed to be used with iterative.
Or
It was written in 3.5 days with the 3.5 understanding of the game that has since been altered by Pathfunder understanding including hands of effort.
Either way, you don't have 3 hands by use of this item.
We keep covering the same topics.
Either what _Ozy_ said, assumed to be used with iterative.
Or
It was written in 3.5 days with the 3.5 understanding of the game that has since been altered by Pathfunder understanding including hands of effort.
Either way, you don't have 3 hands by use of this item.
1. Iterative have never required a callout or a specific statement on number of hands used.
2. Specific > General: The general rule is that you cannot TWF while using a two-handed weapon. The barbazu beard makes a specific statement counter to the general rule.
Until the (very unlikely) event that the Barbazu beard receives an errata, it is legal to TWF with it.
Feel free you house rule it however you wish, but that is what you are doing. House ruling.
A barbazu beard can be used as an off-hand weapon that requires no hands to use; thus, a warrior could combine use of a barbazu beard with a two-handed weapon.Emphasis mine.
If you emphasis "off-hand", it's clear they are talking about two weapon fighting in relation to combining a two handed weapon with the beard.
Good point. The off-hand only exists while TWFing, eliminating the possible ambiguity with iterative attacks.
Considering the time line, I'll happily consider the FAQ on no THW with TWF more recent than the beard and consider TWF with one and a great sword a house rule. But to each their own.
You're treating it like a conflict when there is no conflict though. You can't two weapon fight with a two handed weapon and another weapon unless specified otherwise. And the beard specifies otherwise. It's very much specific vs general.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think the "Hands of effort" is exclusively a Pathfinder thing. It is a particular that is the guide for what weapons and attacks can do that had been in the background of the original tenants of the 3.0 design. It is referenced as a known quantity in the posts and was explained later in the FAQ that Darksol mentions.
It's impossible to tell because... it isn't written anywhere. The whole topic is an effing-hassle because it's impossible to tell what's affected by the unwritten rule and what's an exception. And the unwritten rule was only communicated as part of the message board discussion, not part of the FAQ, so it's ultimately pretty useless for actually interpreting rules by any of us playing the game who aren't part of the design team in the know since it's too freaking hard to find.
That said, I did find the thread again: the 'unwritten rule' makes its appearance
My personal take on it is this: forget the unwritten rule - it's poorly conceived and poorly implemented with lots of ambiguous fallout. Better to just allow someone to use TWF with a two-handed weapon with some limitations - the extra weapon can't be wielded by one of the two hands on the two-handed weapon. Then we don't have to worry about whether or not the barbazu beard is an exception. Just apply the TWF penalties, recognize that TWF allows one and only one extra attack (barring the TWF feats that specifically allow more), and be done with it. It's simpler and it's not as unbalanced as the design team seemed to think when they finally deigned to mention the unwritten rule.
Boot blades, Barbezu beard, armor spikes, dwarven boulder helmet, unarmed knee strikes, some unarmed elbow strikes, and a greatsword!
But seriously, the hands of effort may not be your cup of tea, but it stops some craziness.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Keep in mind the beard was written pre THW+Armor Spikes.
It was probably written by someone using the 3.5 WotC FAQ of "you can TWF with THW and Armor Spikes."Along comes the PF hands of effort.
Now you have two hands of effort.
Pick which weapon to apply them to.
You can't use one for two different weapons to gain more attacks.Until the Barbazu beard is subject to an errata, it specifically states it can be used in conjunction with a two-handed weapon.
That specific allowance trumps the general rule regarding hands-of-effort.
Given the text that you cite, as well as the fact that we have repeatedly been told that FAQ's only apply to the specific situations that they address (in this case armor spikes and gauntlets) I agree that your interpretation is currently the correct one.
Given the larger long-term pattern of FAQ's I'm 99% certain that any FAQ on this topic would consist of a resounding NO WAY, but as you say, that hasn't happened yet.
Boot blades, Barbezu beard, armor spikes, dwarven boulder helmet, unarmed knee strikes, some unarmed elbow strikes, and a greatsword!
But seriously, the hands of effort may not be your cup of tea, but it stops some craziness.
Of course, none of those other weapons actually say they can be used when two weapon fighting with a two-handed weapon.
I'd say the intent is more than clear too. The intent of the beard is to two weapon fight with a two handed weapon, and it has language to that effect. The FAQ was not errata. It was just a declaration of how things are supposed to work. The intent of this specific weapon is to work in a different way than that.
And of course the FAQ above would've been much clearer if it had been "No, because there are no rules for two-weapon fighting with a two-handed weapon, only light and one-handed weapons."
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A barbazu beard can be used as an off-hand weapon that requires no hands to use; thus, a warrior could combine use of a barbazu beard with a two-handed weapon.Emphasis mine.
If you emphasis "that requires no hands to use", it's clear they are talking about using a barbazu beard as a weapon that does not require hands to be free to wield the weapon.
This is clarifying that even though the character may have both hands occupied, they can still make attacks with the barbazu beard as part of the appropriate attack chain.
This means that a two-handed fighter could use iterative attacks to attack with the beard, or could threaten adjacent squares even though they are wielding a 2 handed reach weapon.
Alternatively if they were two weapon fighting with weapons in each hand they could alternate between all three weapon options available to them, with the restriction that the barbazu beard is an 'off-hand' weapon, thus can only get 1/2 str mod to dmg.
However there is NOTHING in the text that is a specific exception to the FAQ that an alternate weapon can be used in conjunction with a two-handed weapon to perform two weapon fighting.
People can choose to infer that is what was intended, but it is most definitely NOT called out as being an option by RAW. Yes you can use the beard with a two-handed weapon, but nowhere does it say you can use the beard with a two-handed weapon to achieve a two-weapon fighting style.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The term "off-hand" is always and only in relation to two weapon fighting. To say otherwise is being disingenuous.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
The term "off-hand" is always and only in relation to two weapon fighting. To say otherwise is being disingenuous.
Actually a two handed uses both your primary hand and your off-hand:
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively.
The use of off-hand simply means not primary hand. You can hold two weapons (one in primary and one in off-hand) but not make TWF attacks for additional attacks.