What happens when you cast create a juju zombie from a planetar or a cleric ?


Rules Questions


Hi, I would like to know what happens when a planetar, or a similar outsider, is killed and his body is raised as a juju zombie.

-1- Does it keep all his spell-like abilities ?

-2- Does it keep all his spells cast as a cleric even if he became an evil abomination ?

-3- Must he (or any cleric raised as a juju zombie)worship another god to keep his spell ?

Thanks for your time answering.

Dark Archive

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1 seems like it.

2 I would rule no, since most goodly deities wouldn't grant spells to undead

3 If the undead planetar gained a new deity, probably. But on the other hand, aren't outsiders inherently tied to their alignment? Becoming juju makes them evil, so would it really still BE a plantar? I don't think the rules cover undead planetars.


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At least where it applies to clerics, there is a section regarding ex-clerics.

Ex-Cleric wrote:
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. She cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until she atones for her deeds (see the atonement spell description).

So a cleric would lose absolutely all class features until they atone, or choose a new deity. One raised as a juju zombie would likely switch to the deity of the person who animated them.

Regarding outright outsiders, if their spellcasting is similar to any class that relies on a deity, then they, too, would find their spells similarly hindered. However, spell-like abilities tend to be inherent; not explicitly granted by their gods but rather simply part of their being. (Though they will likely lose access to any that defy their new alignment, such as Holy Smite.)


I question how bad off a cleric of Urgathoa-or even Nethys-would be.


I was always under the impression that, since outsiders are body-and-soul made of the planes they come from, you can't raise them like you do mortal creatures. Outsiders are described as being nondualistic, meaning they don't have a distinct "soul" or "body." That's why you can't raise them normally, outside of very high level magic: the existence of their bodies IS their entire existence. There's no "self" outside of the body for an outsider. So, what would be used as an animating force for the undead?

The undead magical mechanics aren't very clear and are occasionally contradictory. Example: Why can't someone be raised using a resurrection spell if their body is being used as a mindless undead? If their soul had nothing to do with the undead, it should be free to return to another body. However, even the best resurrection magic available (True Resurrection) cannot return life to anything that has been made into undead (at least, not until it's been destroyed). There's an implication that even mindless undead have some kind of soul animating them. But, Magic Jar dictates that only intelligent undead "have or are souls." So many things do not make sense, here.

Now, on the specifics of what you ask: juju zombies still count as zombies. They're mindless undead that lack any abilities that they had previously. Spellcasting, as it is a mental activity, is right out the window. Spell-Like Abilities are also activated mentally, so mindless things can't use them, either.

EDIT: Correction. Further review shows that Juju zombies do not inherit the "mindless" quality. Other points still stand. Carry on.


first off outsiders do not have souls and thus turning them into undead is questionable. I didn't find any examples of creatures with both types (Undead and Outsider). There are Undead Extraplanar types. One could suggest that outsiders that become undead lose the outsider type and become Undead Extraplanar types. RAW doesn't give an explanation or process.

Dread zombie aasimar(native outsider)

Planetars are divine servants high in the hierarchy of their deific power (CR 16) which puts it squarely in the realm of the mythic and thus in the GMs hands.
Herald of Armageddon interact with negative energy. Again, this is a high CR 15 creature.
There might be some unique creatures at or above the herald of a deity level that seem to be both types, but you've crossed into the mythic realm and that is in the hands of the GM and beyond normal RAW.

My suggestion is to take this question to the Advice or Homebrew forums.

IMO a Juju zombie cannot contain the spiritual power of a CR 16 Undead Planetar and it would simply fail or or produce a anticlimactic crumbling/withering of the planetar's body or a surprising explosion of negative energy. There are other horrible directions this could go which are not suitable for a public discussion board.


This may be a silly question...

Cast "Create a Juju Zombie"?

Do you mean Cast "Animate Dead" to create a Juju Zombie?
Is a Jujuj Zombie something that Animate Dead can make, or is it from a different spell?

Liberty's Edge

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Dr Styx wrote:

This may be a silly question...

Cast "Create a Juju Zombie"?

Do you mean Cast "Animate Dead" to create a Juju Zombie?
Is a Jujuj Zombie something that Animate Dead can make, or is it from a different spell?

I would require "Create greater undead", it is not a variant of the standard zombie.

I am fairly sure that one of the campaign supplements has a part on the juju zombies, probably with the appropriate list of spells to create them, but it isn't Undead unleashed (the one that I have checked on the fly).
The bestiary entry don't say anything about what spell is needed.


Nightshade is what you are looking for. Although technically they are Extraplanar Undead rather than Outsiders, these are basically Undead Outsiders in all but name. They are most commonly formed primarily from Fiends, but no reason exists that they could not also be formed from fallen Angels (after all, Erinyes Devils are most commonly formed from fallen Angels). But it seems that Create Greater Undead would not be a sufficient spell to accomplish this, or if it could be used for this purpose, it would need to be cast in a place at the conjunction of Shadow and Negative Energy, by analogy with the requirement to be cast in the Abyss to create Bodaks, and only by spellcasters of power so great as to be beyond that normally thought to be possible.


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Thanks for all your answers.

I'm sorry, i should have posted some links:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-undead/

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/

I'm the PC who wonders what to do with a dead planetar. The char is a lvl 17 LE Urgathoa priest. I really like the idea of "recycling" such a holy entity and feel i should use it for something.

I didn't think of the Nightshades but i could ask my GM to allow me to create one from the corpse. Given the god, a Miracle spell could work i think but it's not RAW.

As a side note, is it possible to restore to undeath a destroyed undeath with a miracle spell ? My best undead buddy/minion was just destroyed. I have access to similar/better corpse, but we shared so much, i miss her.


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Considering that Miracle can do pretty much what a Wish can do, but sometimes more, and often not requiring as much (or even any) cost, Miracle should work for bringing back a destroyed Undead.

Being 17th level, you just might be able to boost your caster level enough to make a Nightshade if you do it in the right place, although it will be extremely dangerous, and Rules As Written doesn't cover this.

Liberty's Edge

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You ask your goddess for the Miracle of giving you your best undead buddy's personality (soul ?) back by using this powerful vessel for Good that you thoroughly desecrated for this exact purpose

Urgathoa should grant you this blessing I think :-)


Yogmoth wrote:

Hi, I would like to know what happens when a planetar, or a similar outsider, is killed and his body is raised as a juju zombie.

-1- Does it keep all his spell-like abilities ?

-2- Does it keep all his spells cast as a cleric even if he became an evil abomination ?

-3- Must he (or any cleric raised as a juju zombie)worship another god to keep his spell ?

Thanks for your time answering.

We have a house rule: any spell with an affect similar to another (higher level) spell is subject to the rules inherent to the restrictions of the higher level spell. Both create greater undead and resurrection put the soul back in the body, so a planetar can not become one. The cleric would lose his connection to his deity and must seek a new one to regain clerical status.


^That is a good reason for arguing that you might need a spell of higher level than Create Greater Undead to make a Planetar corpse into a Nightshade. On the other hand, keep in mind that True Resurrection (9th level) explicitly can resurrect Outsiders and even Undead -- it just doesn't do quite what you want (it would resurrect the Planetar back to normal life instead of creating a Nightshade, and instead of restoring destroyed Undead to Undeath, it restores them to the normal life they had before they became Undead, assuming that they didn't die of old age, in which case it just doesn't work). So it seems completely reasonable that a different high level spell along the lines of Create Greater Undead but even higher level should be able to make a Planetar corpse into a Nightshade, at least if cast in the right place.


Ectar wrote:
3 If the undead planetar gained a new deity, probably. But on the other hand, aren't outsiders inherently tied to their alignment? Becoming juju makes them evil, so would it really still BE a plantar? I don't think the rules cover undead planetars.

I will address this, at least: in canon, we have (at least) two outsiders who no longer have their alignment, but are still their kind of outsider.

One required divine intervention.

One required 10,000 years of watching destroyed beauty to go insane.

But it is still possible; they just lose that alignment aspect of their alignment.

Azothath wrote:
first off outsiders do not have souls and thus turning them into undead is questionable. I didn't find any examples of creatures with both types (Undead and Outsider). There are Undead Extraplanar types. One could suggest that outsiders that become undead lose the outsider type and become Undead Extraplanar types. RAW doesn't give an explanation or process.

All undead lose their previous type and become undead. A zombie humanoid is no longer a humanoid, it's an undead.

Also, juju zombies rely on a spirit essence called wendo to enter the body to create them (at least, in Golarion), meaning the "soul" kind of provided.

Azothath wrote:

Planetars are divine servants high in the hierarchy of their deific power (CR 16) which puts it squarely in the realm of the mythic and thus in the GMs hands.

Herald of Armageddon interact with negative energy. Again, this is a high CR 15 creature.
There might be some unique creatures at or above the herald of a deity level that seem to be both types, but you've crossed into the mythic realm and that is in the hands of the GM and beyond normal RAW.

This is untrue in a literal sense (though that might not be how you mean it), as mythic has a specific meaning in Pathfinder.

In a broader sense, it is still not mythic: divine heralds were specifically crafted as they were at CR 15 in order to be able to be summoned by non-mythic mortal spellcasters in need of aid from their god.

Azothath wrote:

My suggestion is to take this question to the Advice or Homebrew forums.

IMO a Juju zombie cannot contain the spiritual power of a CR 16 Undead Planetar and it would simply fail or or produce a anticlimactic crumbling/withering of the planetar's body or a surprising explosion of negative energy. There are other horrible directions this could go which are not suitable for a public discussion board.

This advice is strictly home-brew. It may be fine, if that's what you want to go with, but, per RAW, there is nothing preventing the use of create undead (so long as it's used with either energy drain or enervation; see spell description for details) to turn it into a juju zombie.

It may be prevented by fluff - the outsider lacking a separate soul - but there is nothing explicit that does so, and the lore of juju indicates that a "fake soul" essence is kind of provided anyway.

That said, due to (rather personally frustrating) preferences from certain Paizo staff, that fluff, while still technically part of canon, is partially dubious.

The juju oracle mystery (as found in the Serpent's Skull AP) was where the juju zombie first made their appearance, however it has since been retconned by supplying a different juju oracle mystery. Paizo did so because, originally, the juju oracle could make non-evil zombies by way of the spirit vessels ability (the one listed there is not the original), and someone (*cough, James Jacobs, from what I can tell, cough*) really didn't like that (and personally considers it an error). Though, technically, the original archetype was not errata'd out of existence (and there was officially denial that the original was rejected), the new archetype is the only one Paizo officially acknowledges in-print.

That said, as the only existing write-up that goes into Juju in detail (to my knowledge) that area explains that juju zombies are built out of Wendo, and even in the past, when sections of articles have been removed (see: Paladins of Asmodeus, in Council of Thieves), the rest of the article stands as "correct" unless explicitly contradicted.

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