PC in DIRE need of protection from divination


Advice


Soooo.... To make the long story short, I accidentally robbed the local wizard's guild. Needless to say, my level 5 oracle doesn't want to get busted. The IMPORTANT question is what I should do to protect myself from being divined as the burglar.


OH! Once I sell the loot, I'll have access to 15k and botn Craft Wondrous Item and Inscribe Magical Tattoo.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Well for goodness sake, don't try to sell the loot anywhere near that guild or any of the schools where the members of the guild studied.

You'll be nabbed almost immediately and it won't be by divination. Wait until you're sure you've been released from the Culpable Stupidity spell


Well, I KNOW THAT PART. :P

SO, the loot is entirely inaccessible from anyone in the city, except one member of the party. Unless someone in the city just HAPPENS to be related to the same incubus he is. THAT isn't a problem.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

You'll have to buy protection. Which means you'll have to find someone willing to sell you protection.

Have you got enough cash to pay a rival wizard for a protection spell or item?


Nondetection works against many divinations but could get expensive over the long term, especially if you have to buy items or pay someone else to cast it.

The obvious question though is what sort of divinations might they use? If they're willing to go up to Contact Other Plane turn yourself in now. If they're using Locate Object it sounds like you've got that covered. If they're trying to scry you do they have enough info to try? Almost anything else has a very limited range and usually just one target, they'd have to suspect you already for them to even try.


Were you seen?

Did you leave anything behind? Your blood on somebody's weapons, for example?

First, I'd recommend investing into a disguise. Be somebody else. Change your character's name, make sure all your allies know your new name. Mundane disguises as well as magical for extra security.

For items, a Hat of Disguise (1,800 gp) will add a +10 bonus to your disguise check, but also allows a Will save for anyone interacting with your physical person. Ring of Mindshielding (8,000 gp) will get you out of any attempt to read your mind or force you to tell the truth.

For scrying, the only guaranteed option is a lead lined box. Short of that, only the Mindblank spell can foil scrying outright, and that's obviously not available as an always-on item.


Probably out of your price range, but look up Rune of the Inscrutable One.


Avr, nondetection is one of the things I was looking at. If I do that one, it's... measured in hours, so 6k for an item that does it constantly. Not a huge problem.

AS to enough information, I suppose it depends on the method. In theory, there's a few spells that can contact Deities. Diviner spells, specifically. Don't suppose there's anything to hide from deities? :P


@JDLPF, no. Not a thing, not blood. No bodies. Nobody saw us, though THAT was a close one. As to disguising himself, he's... got some pretty distinctive features. mundane disguises are pretty much right out, though magical ones are a possibility. That Ring of Mindshielding, though... Mmmff.

@Senaric, that Rune of the Inscrutable One looks tasty, too. A few K past my cash range, but... delicious.


I would worry about more mundane means being used to literally track you.

It's only a DC20 to track you, and it only increases by 1 for every 24 hours past the occurrence.


Nobody saw US?

How many were involved?
Are you accomplices immune to defection?
....unlikely to speak out of turn?
....safely dead, bodies eliminated?


Worth mentioning Detect Scrying. Lasts 24 hours and while it doesn't prevent divination you will become aware of any attempts and may (opposed CL checks) get a mental image of who plus direction and distance to them.

Sovereign Court

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Have you considered giving it back and apologizing?


ring of mindsheilding?


Zarius wrote:
Avr, nondetection is one of the things I was looking at. If I do that one, it's... measured in hours, so 6k for an item that does it constantly. Not a huge problem.

There are already some items that can do that, and they're quite a bit more expensive. There's the mask of anonymous mein for 25,000, the iron circlet of guarded souls for 30,000, the amulet of proof against detection and location for 35,000, and the rod of mind mastery for 67,000.

Of course, the easiest way is to just tattoo a bunch of text onto your body, call yourself a book, and buy a bookmark of deception. Only 1,500 gp!


Well, there are some decent ways of fouling some divinations without spells.

It depends on how they are tracking you but if they are using:

Locate ofbject wrote:
The spell is blocked by even a thin sheet of lead. Creatures cannot be found by this spell. Polymorph any object and nondetection fool it.

A thin sheet of lead should be inexpensive.

If they are trying to locate you,

locate creature wrote:
Running water blocks the spell.


Zarius wrote:

Avr, nondetection is one of the things I was looking at. If I do that one, it's... measured in hours, so 6k for an item that does it constantly. Not a huge problem.

AS to enough information, I suppose it depends on the method. In theory, there's a few spells that can contact Deities. Diviner spells, specifically. Don't suppose there's anything to hide from deities? :P

Mind Blank even foils miracle, and miracle is the intercession of a deity. If the intercession of a deity can not gain information about someone, then you are effectively hidden.


The key to being effectively hidden, is to be hidden enough to foil the effort they are willing to put in.

If the item was expensive enough, then they may well cast discern location.

At that point only mind blank will stop them from knowing exactly where it is.

If none of the wizards are capable of casting the spell, a scroll of it only costs 3,000 gold.
It is likely that they will be willing to pay 3,000 gold to figure out where a 30,000 gold piece item is.

To be honest, I would sell it someplace far away and quick.


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Commission an armorer to make a suit of plate mail with a clad lead layer (steel on the outside, lead in the middle, steel on the inside). Then get someone unaffiliated with the angry wizards to put the comfort special ability on your plate mail and never take it off.

Grand Lodge

two words: Mind Blank.

Have fun.


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Selvaxri wrote:

two words: Mind Blank.

Have fun.

Two words: level five.

A little less fun.


What kind of spell casting is available to the wizards guild and to what extent does you GM's NPCs adhere to the spells as written and available to PCs (would his NPC guild just have hand-wavery plot-magic?) Ultimately it comes down to how your GM runs their world e.g. discern location is a powerful spell but the wizards might not be able to cast it and even if they can afford the listed cost that doesn't necessarily mean they can get it and thus it's not something to worry about.


Why are you trying to sell things you didn't intend to steal?

Since you stole the goods entirely by accident (how did that happen, anyway?), return them either openly, freely explaining the situation, or drop them off quietly with a simple note explaining.


What Reverse said ... or if for whatever reason that isn't possible then this thread is full of ideas for magical protections.

Can't return it but don't want to get blamed then it gets sticky and you've made no mention of your alignment (except what conclusions one might draw from your mentioning an incubus companion/party member) and that kettle of fish. But if selling it is difficult and self protection seems unlikely perhaps give it, probably covertly, to someone more able to keep/use it or to someone you really don't like or the wizards guild doesn't like. Ideally someone or ones that fit all those categories.

Sequester is another possibility I didn't mention before as it, like several other possibilities such as Mind Blank or Communal Mind Blank, typically is beyond the access of a 5th level Oracle. Can't hide yourself, hide what you stole.

Temporarily while you figure out what to do keeping said object in an extradimensional or other-planar space (such as a Rope Trick) will make Scrying and many other lower level divinations more problematic as they tend to work only on the plane the caster occupies and not across planar boundries, at least until you start talking higher level magic. Even something as simple as keeping the object within a Bag of Holding or Handy Haversack may make finding it (and hence you) more difficult. Of course the more resources the Guild must spend finding you/it the more "annoyed" they are liable to be if or when they catch up with you.

And be wary of how and what you do as some of the trickier ways of finding the object or you, especially while you are protected, is for the Wizards Guild to come at it indirectly (and probably they have folks who have done this sort of thing before). Such as divinations aimed at finding anyone whose bought a lead lined box in the last few days or someone whose sold such a container. Ditto for finding a spellcaster who has sold a scroll or scrolls with the spells you might be using etc., etc.. Never mind throwing their wealth at mundane methods to uncover the thief.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Hunt down the Batman, talk him into helping you retrain into a vigilante. Use vigilante abilities to conceal your identity from everything and everybody.

It will be easier than trying to out think/out fight a wizard guild.


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Oh no,
I completely agree with Ravingdork here.
It has been an honor to serve with you all. :)


So, OK. Location of the items is inside of one bag of holding inside of ANOTHER bag of holding type item (No, NOT a portable hole). The later bag can only be opened by someone directly related to my character via his demonic progenitor (no benefits, just a bit of a handwave back story). So effectively, they're in an completely inaccessible pocket dimension... unless I take the bag out of the other bag. Would Discern Location even WORK under these conditions? They can't find ME with it, becasue while they've TECHNICALLY seen me, they HAVEN'T seen "the person what robbed our vault." Even if they COULD locate the items, it'll be pretty hard to name, track, or locate a pocket dimension that's been sealed off.

@Daw, one other PC was involved. I'm not killing a PC, my character is neutral. And not the "I do whatever I want" neutral.

@Reverse, basically... MY character followed ANOTHER character, and got dragged along on a robbery. I don't return loot. :P And the note would basically run along the lines of "Your vault sucks. A little kid and a kobold broke in." (not really a kobold, but that PC's race is basically looked at the same way.)

I could, according to the Craft Wondrous Item table, make a mind blank once per day item for 24k... but it requires the involvement of a third PC... Worse, it requires the involvement of the GM's 'I'm bored' PC... And hawking much of the loot before I know what it is.


And the item would also take better than 3 weeks.


I was wondering whether you were being a dick player, playing one of those I can do whatever I want characters, but as you have stated that you are not so I'll take that as a given.

First question, is the other player involved being a dick? If not, are the pair of you derailing the plot or is the GM happy with the course of events?

If the other player is being a dick, or you are otherwise derailing the game and are now looking for an in-game way to thwart the GM's efforts then you are going to lose have already lost. The GM can invent whatever resources he wants to allocate to the Wizardry Guild and outgun you in-game. E.g. a wish spell stating, "I wish the person who stole the item to be instantly teleported into this cell". If this is the case your best course of action is to work with the GM to get the game back on track. Basically it doesn't matter if they can't locate the item, they can always locate you.

If however, this is part of the plot or a welcome diversion, then the GM will be looking for you to be inventive and will probably allow anything that sounds plausible. If this is the case then it seems you have two problems.
1. You have a very high risk of being caught if you remove the item from it's current location.
2. You may bring suspicion upon yourself if your interactions change. E.g. if you still have to deal with the guild then every social encounter may require a bluff check to make sure your character doesn't say something by mistake. If you suddenly bail unexpectedly then that will also be suspicious.

You will have a great deal of difficulty fencing something that you cannot show people, and everyone you tell is a potential way of getting caught. If you do find a middleman they are likely to require both bags of holding so that they can transport it safely and pay at best say 5% of the unauthenticated item's value. You are likely to make a loss on the deal; so until the heat dies down, I think you need to forget about selling it.

Forget about using a spell or magic item to obfuscate your guilt. There are too many other mundane avenues available to the investigators. You need to find a plausible reason to break contact with the Wizard's guild, leave the local vicinity and head a long way away before the Wizard's guild and potentially the Thieves or Assassin's Guild, commissioned by the Wizard's guild tracks you down. Also, I would not leave by ship as you are effectively stuck on board until it makes port. That gives the investigators plenty of time to learn which ship you left on and overtake you (e.g. by teleport, or some communication method).


Lead. Lead, lead, lead. Only a thin sheet is enough to block divinations, so you can line armor with it (though that would be heavy). You can also bunker down in a place with lead-lined walls for a little while.


Darker, The character is a 10 year old kid (Oracle, Child cursed, we just decided to say screw it and go whole hog with it, he's ACTUALLY a kid, just coming into his power). Lead armor, or even the previous idea of lead-plating sandwiched between steel plating, would be too heavy for him. (Str 10, small-sized - again, we took liberties with the curse's wording - so 75% carry). Anything ELSE, as far as lead would go, would be non-portable. I GUESS I could buy a wagon and have it lead lined... but that kind of custom job would be suspicious. It would ALSO be suspicious for the 10 year old to just up and vanish for a couple weeks. :P

@Hugo Rune, EXCELLENT question. The other PC is a rogue, and the player is known for "roguing it up", metaphorically. So, not so much "dick" as... if the GM didn't expect something like this sooner or later, he was an idiot. And he's not an idiot. Plus, our GM spent a GLEEFUL week setting the place up for us, so he was behind it.

Kid's a visitor to the city, forced into town by circumstances beyond his control. Only thing the guild really knows about him is he's an oracle for Pharasma, so their request to "go kill some undead" is something they know he'll complete before heading out, but he's made it clear he doesn't trust them and thinks that they're... let's be polite and say "intellectually challenged on the topic of undead." Him not showing up for his pay might odd, but not entirely suspicious.

The... second bag of holding isn't actually a bag. It's a Pathfinder's Pouch that's tattoo'ed onto his forearm. (up side, they have to make a will save to even tell it's magical, and they STILL can't open it). But yeah, I know where I'm going to try to hawk it all, and it's a month or more travel away, so THAT isn't a problem. That's the soonest he'd start divesting himself.


Think a lot will depend on what was stolen and the politics of the city and wizard guild.

Most wizard guilds don't want it being know they got stolen from. So any 'searches' for you will be kept 'quiet'.

Disguises - not need and might even be harmful. No one saw you so they should have no idea that you took stole stuff. Having you 'disappear' right after the theft is a sign of guilt.

Misdirection is very useful, get yourself a patsy. If you know someone unfriendly to the town/wizard guild (or even a rival), maybe send a easily identifiable magic item to that person/region in a round about manor to throw the investigators off.
Think there's also some misdirection spells that could be useful. Just don't know how those work.


Matt2VK wrote:

Think a lot will depend on what was stolen and the politics of the city and wizard guild.

Most wizard guilds don't want it being know they got stolen from. So any 'searches' for you will be kept 'quiet'.

Disguises - not need and might even be harmful. No one saw you so they should have no idea that you took stole stuff. Having you 'disappear' right after the theft is a sign of guilt.

Misdirection is very useful, get yourself a patsy. If you know someone unfriendly to the town/wizard guild (or even a rival), maybe send a easily identifiable magic item to that person/region in a round about manor to throw the investigators off.
Think there's also some misdirection spells that could be useful. Just don't know how those work.

That's all true, I would still have him make bluff checks whenever he interacted with the Guild to hide his own guilt. Rather than a direct opposed Bluff - Sense Motive Check it would be a check that his body language gives the Guild representative a hunch that something is up. So DC20+Bluff opposed by Sense Motive is how I would run it. If the topic of conversation was directly about the stolen item then it would be a straight opposed check.


Zarius wrote:
Darker, The character is a 10 year old kid (Oracle, Child cursed, we just decided to say screw it and go whole hog with it, he's ACTUALLY a kid, just coming into his power). Lead armor, or even the previous idea of lead-plating sandwiched between steel plating, would be too heavy for him. (Str 10, small-sized - again, we took liberties with the curse's wording - so 75% carry). Anything ELSE, as far as lead would go, would be non-portable. I GUESS I could buy a wagon and have it lead lined... but that kind of custom job would be suspicious. It would ALSO be suspicious for the 10 year old to just up and vanish for a couple weeks. :P

I mean, if we want to play by the rules: technically characters that are not fully adults cannot take regular class levels. I see that you've house ruled it, but just sayin'. Anyway, at level 5 you're pretty screwed. Scrolls and magical items (which I assume is what you're looking for) are simply WAAAY out of your price range for WBL. On the other note, technically is says a "thin layer of lead." You only need enough to cover. You don't need an inch around you. Lead's heavy. It's not THAT heavy. You'll only need a couple of lbs. to line a child-sized suit of armor. So, I guess hit the gym or have some potions of Bull's Strength on tap if you can't afford, say, 30 lbs of weight to account for the base weight of low-tier armor (using chain shirt as base) plus the couple of lbs of lead to line it.

Scarab Sages

For totally different approach, you might pay someone to cast modify memory on you... "clearly, you were never involved in the theft - and can testify to that in a Circle of Truth, etc.".

"I tell you, I was on a flight to Chicago..."


Zarius wrote:

So, OK. Location of the items is inside of one bag of holding inside of ANOTHER bag of holding type item (No, NOT a portable hole). The later bag can only be opened by someone directly related to my character via his demonic progenitor (no benefits, just a bit of a handwave back story). So effectively, they're in an completely inaccessible pocket dimension... unless I take the bag out of the other bag. Would Discern Location even WORK under these conditions? They can't find ME with it, becasue while they've TECHNICALLY seen me, they HAVEN'T seen "the person what robbed our vault." Even if they COULD locate the items, it'll be pretty hard to name, track, or locate a pocket dimension that's been sealed off.

If they did not see you or have an item that once belonged to you, they could not use discern location to find you. But as long as they once touched the item you stole, these measure would not stop the spell.
Discern Location wrote:
A discern location spell is among the most powerful means of locating creatures or objects. Nothing short of a mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object. Discern location circumvents normal means of protection from scrying or location. The spell reveals the name of the creature or object's location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.

What you discribed was "hidden very well" but it falls short of mind blank or the direct intervention of a deity.

They would get a result similar to, "in a pocket dimension, coterminous with the material plane at 415 Baker Street, Absolom."


Oooohhh... I see how the wording works, there, MichaelCullen... Thanks for that clarification!


Object lesson, never, ever make a move on the Wizards Guild, or similar resourced organization without having a comprehensive exit strategy already in place.


I had an EXCELLENT exit strategy... just not a loot disposal strategy. :P


Also, to the person who suggested Modify Memory, won't work... took hours to decipher writing in an unknown language.

Dark Archive

darkerthought7 wrote:
I mean, if we want to play by the rules: technically characters that are not fully adults cannot take regular class levels. I see that you've house ruled it, but just sayin'.

Tell that to Paizo's Kineticist iconic.


Zarius,

Perhaps you could have included loot disposal as part of your exit strategy.
No job is finished until the paperwork is done is not a new concept. :)

Best of luck though.


LuniasM, also tell that to the Feral Child Druid archetype which, while it doesn't expressly say it, DOES strongly hint that the character should be a child or at least far younger than druids are supposed to be, and to the Oracle Curse "Child" (which he HAS), which says "You became an oracle early in life, and your body has remained that of a child." Why can't they start adventuring right after the power starts up? :P This isn't so much a house ruling as we just hand waved a little.

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